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  • Berean Todd
    replied
    Re: Hilston writes:

    But these sayings were made up by believers desperate to ward off the criticisms of atheists which were obviously as strong then as now.
    I might just as well coin my own phrase
    And when your book of quotes lasts thousands of years, is shown to be wholly archaeologically and historically accurate. When your book is shown through witness, contemporary testimony, history and archaeoloogy to be above reproach; maybe when all of that happens we will give "your verse" some weight. I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you though.


    Originally posted by wicked atheist
    Cannot you allow us to be atheists? If we don't believe , then we don't believe. Why not leave it like that? At least I do you ther courtesy of agreeing that you yourself do believe.
    Uh, who came to whose site looking for debate? If you come to a Christian site, expect Christian arguments.

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  • wicked atheist
    replied
    Hilston writes:

    Believers have had over 2000 years to find sophistical replies to atheists, hence the frequent quotations from Proverbs. But these sayings were made up by believers desperate to ward off the criticisms of atheists which were obviously as strong then as now.
    I might just as well coin my own phrase: "The fool hath said in his heart that there is a God" (wicked atheist Ch. 1.1).
    Cannot you allow us to be atheists? If we don't believe , then we don't believe. Why not leave it like that? At least I do you ther courtesy of agreeing that you yourself do believe.

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  • 1Way
    replied
    bmeyers – You do have a point or something productive to contribute don’t you? A little suitable helpful information would be useful already, while at the same time, such clarification could not be viewed as antagonistic or nearly useless.

    I was asking of you so that I would understand, and I was forthright with clarifying my reasoning for my position to help you understand where I am coming from, so I think it is you who presumes “far too much regarding where I am coming from”.

    Since you are not siding with, but apparently against those of us who are willing to (redemptively) judge another’s salvation/damnation prior to judgment day, you could explain yourself instead of saying,
    That is not what I am basically saying. You have made far too many assumptions regarding where I am coming from.
    Which was in response to me saying to you
    And therein you see the error of your slant. You would like to hold against us righteous who condemn the wicked, that our judgments are somewhat erroneous because we can not know for certain if someone is saved or not, we might be good guessers and sometimes very bad guessers, but we are acting in a way that discredits Christianity, not helps it.

    Correct me if that is not what you are basically saying.
    I asked for correction, please correct me since you say I am wrong. This is real life, it is not a game of 20 questions, time is precious to us all, ,,, so please then, ,,, if that is not where you are coming from and you already started to make your point, ,,, do us all a favor and explain where you are coming from and finish your point.

    (Poster, speak your mind!) (Write your mind,,,) (Post what you wanted to say.)
    __________________
    ^
    __________________
    Just joking about you ranting. That little energized angry emoticon is my favorite, he has to stop just long enough to take two deep breaths before he lays back into it, that is so funny. (chuckles)

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  • bmyers
    replied
    Originally posted by 1Way
    And therein you see the error of your slant. You would like to hold against us righteous who condemn the wicked, that our judgments are somewhat erroneous because we can not know for certain if someone is saved or not, we might be good guessers and sometimes very bad guessers, but we are acting in a way that discredits Christianity, not helps it.

    Correct me if that is not what you are basically saying.
    That is not what I am basically saying. You have made far too many assumptions regarding where I am coming from.

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  • 1Way
    replied
    bmeyer - You said
    It seems, though, that quite a few people here DO seem willing to make that judgement, based solely on what other people are writing in response to questions presented in this forum. Based on the above, I am assuming that you would agree that this is unwarranted?
    There is a difference between redeeming the time and absolutes. You should be able to ask anyone on this forum who is like myself quite willing to judge against another person, even to judge that they need to get saved, if their judgment is absolute or is it subject to error.

    And therein you see the error of your slant. You would like to hold against us righteous who condemn the wicked, that our judgments are somewhat erroneous because we can not know for certain if someone is saved or not, we might be good guessers and sometimes very bad guessers, but we are acting in a way that discredits Christianity, not helps it.

    Correct me if that is not what you are basically saying.

    So I say, you are simply pointing out human imperfection. It is even possible that you could encounter someone who is supposed to be a close family member of your own family, and be mistaken about who they are. It is “possible”. It is possible that if you were asked for the answer, what is one plus one, you might get it wrong, it is “possible”, because we are human and we are prone to error.

    Right, we are human and we are prone to error. But that is hardly the issue, if you see someone headed towards destruction, and you don’t do something to help them because after all, you can not be absolutely positive that they are headed for destruction, so what do you do? Do you attempt to redeem the time and save (or assist) as many people as you can, to lead them to know the Lord or to know Him better, or do you just say, well I could be wrong and not proceed based on the chance that what you think to be true, simply is not.

    Your right, we are not God, we can not “perfectly” know every thought and see right to a person’s heart, but God teaches us Christians the nature of men and their heart and their actions and their words and their life’s witness and the relationship between them, He teaches us to judge people according to their words and their life, and to do so according to absolute right and wrong. But you would be wrong for pretending that such an observation should stop believers like myself from acting upon the belief that someone is or is not saved.

    And don’t act like you don’t do the very same sort of thing in judging the inner man of other people. If you date, you size up a person to see if they are your type or not, you check their level of honest, their intelligence and sense of humor, etc., same with many interpersonal relationships especially where trust and respect are important to you, in fact, in greater and mostly lesser ways, you probably form dozens or even hundreds of discrete personal judgments about other people every day. So don’t worry, be happy, and if your not saved and many Christians can tell, that’s life, get used to it!
    Last edited by 1Way; August 15, 2003, 08:43 PM.

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  • bmyers
    replied
    Originally posted by LightSon
    Getting to your question, to what extent is “anyone … truly qualified to give an authoritative opinion regarding the "sainthood" of another?”

    Strictly speaking, being a Christian (or saint) is “between the individual and God”. Can I see into another man’s heart and know what his true relationship is to God? NO I cannot, but I can look at his life and the fruit that man bears. Jesus said, “if you love me, keep my commandments”. A man who refuses surrender in obedience to God has no basis to claim to be a child of God. My judgments are secondary to a man’s actual status. I may not be able to answer the question absolutely, but in a practical sense, if an individual is egregiously misbehaving, there will be a point where I must treat him as if he were not a saint.
    This answers the question that I had asked, which was whether or not "sainthood" could be judged in the case of another. Assuming I understand your response correctly, it seems to be "no" - at least from the standpoint of whether or not you can definitively judge the "sainthood" of another. I do understand, of course, that you're also saying that at some point, based on a given individual's behavior, that you yourself you not treat that person as if they were a "saint" (i.e., a fellow believer).

    It seems, though, that quite a few people here DO seem willing to make that judgement, based solely on what other people are writing in response to questions presented in this forum. Based on the above, I am assuming that you would agree that this is unwarranted?

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  • 1Way
    replied
    Lightson and coffeeman – Maybe you two just missed my post to you. I’ve started a thread just for us. Here’s my repost.
    Lightson and Coffeeman – Lets continue this topic of Christians and judgment/condemnation over in another more forum where I started another thread.

    http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulle...823#post305823

    Thanks.
    Looking forward to your responses.

    Leave a comment:


  • attention
    replied
    Originally posted by coffeeman
    Are you inferring Nazis were Christians??? That's incredible...
    No. I am inferring that if all those so-called Christians were realy 'Saint-like', they would have known a way to stop Hitler and the nazi's from performing so much cruelty.

    They obviously didn't except for a small monority, some even agreed with what the nazi's did. The Catholic church for instance had not much problems with the nazi regime.

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  • coffeeman
    replied
    Originally posted by attention
    We know from history - the second world war, the deportation of the Jews, the Holocaust - how many of them ACTUALLY were.

    Not very many, I can tell you .......

    Are you inferring Nazis were Christians??? That's incredible...many Christians lost their lives during the Holocaust...you should know this more than most because Christians in Amsterdam hid many Jews. Hitler was a godless occultist...he thought Germans were the golden race far more advanced than the other races...hmmm sounds evolutionary doesn't it.
    Have you ever wondered how many Christians died saving your country from the Nazis?

    Is German your national language attention? .......no? that's okay....your welcome!

    Saint is just a name for Christian...the word has been twisted through the years...and true not all christians appear much different than anyone else. We should look at the one who invites everyone to become a Christian and not the Christians we are called Saints because of what God has done not what we do.

    Interesting that the Swastika is an occult symbol just reversed ...he wanted to be worshipped and was heavy into astrolgy which is forbidden by the Bible...
    Last edited by coffeeman; August 14, 2003, 10:42 PM.

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  • coffeeman
    replied
    Takes a break

    Leave a comment:

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