BRXII Battle talk
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Aimiel
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The Only One Who can deliver you isn't to blame for your shortcomings, He is, however, capable of and actually has already provided for your escape from said fate, Personally. All you have to do is accept the free gift that He offers, instead of finding ways to blame Him for your own mistakes, so that you can feel better about yourself. I'd say your ego is about the same size as Sozo's: gigantic.
logos_x
New member
Those that believe in eternal torment think it is perfectly logical that God would create such a thing in the first place. To them it is perfectly logical that God has no other options available to Him. It's perfectly logical to create things in such a way that eternal torment in literal flames would be the outcome of being born of a woman...and then have to make exceptions to that rule by "saving" a few out of it.
They think that it is "purely" emotional to check if the Bible in it's original languages actually teaches that. They think that if someone discovers that it isn't necessarily true that punishments are never ending, isn't necessarily true that the lake of fire accomplishes nothing but unimaginable pain forever is a "softy".
They think you shouldn't get emotional about what it is they think is perfectly logical.
Their arguments show simply that they are very worried that God might just burn people forever and that believers in universal salvation through Christ endanger people in going to the eternal torment God seems so interested in doing to people. They say they are attacking a doctrine...but then end up attacking "Universalists".
They act like cult members. "We are right, and don't question what we are saying at all" is their mantra.
To them...eternal torment is an acceptible idea, and it is acceptible only because they think God is behind it. Any effort to show God isn't behind it is met with "that is illogical".
I don't know, folks. How can people be made to think about these things objectively while being berated constantly for checking out what the Bible taught and how people came to believe in eternal torment in the first place.
The MAJORITY of the greek speaking CHRISTIANS did not believe in eternal torment in the early church. Were they basing their beliefs on purely emotional grounds? The Jews don't believe in eternal torment. The Old Testament doesn't mention it. Virtually all the evidence points to the Christian Faith being a Univeralist Faith as well. The doctrine of eternal torment came much later as a sytematic theology by Augustine, who finally wrote down what the belivers in eternal torment believed. Then...it was the Catholic Church that began to impose it's theology, and declared those that believe in Universal Salvation through Jesus Christ to be heretics.
That was the MAJORITY of the Christian world at the time!
But...all that doesn't matter to the perfectly logical believers in eternal torment.
They think that it is "purely" emotional to check if the Bible in it's original languages actually teaches that. They think that if someone discovers that it isn't necessarily true that punishments are never ending, isn't necessarily true that the lake of fire accomplishes nothing but unimaginable pain forever is a "softy".
They think you shouldn't get emotional about what it is they think is perfectly logical.
Their arguments show simply that they are very worried that God might just burn people forever and that believers in universal salvation through Christ endanger people in going to the eternal torment God seems so interested in doing to people. They say they are attacking a doctrine...but then end up attacking "Universalists".
They act like cult members. "We are right, and don't question what we are saying at all" is their mantra.
To them...eternal torment is an acceptible idea, and it is acceptible only because they think God is behind it. Any effort to show God isn't behind it is met with "that is illogical".
I don't know, folks. How can people be made to think about these things objectively while being berated constantly for checking out what the Bible taught and how people came to believe in eternal torment in the first place.
The MAJORITY of the greek speaking CHRISTIANS did not believe in eternal torment in the early church. Were they basing their beliefs on purely emotional grounds? The Jews don't believe in eternal torment. The Old Testament doesn't mention it. Virtually all the evidence points to the Christian Faith being a Univeralist Faith as well. The doctrine of eternal torment came much later as a sytematic theology by Augustine, who finally wrote down what the belivers in eternal torment believed. Then...it was the Catholic Church that began to impose it's theology, and declared those that believe in Universal Salvation through Jesus Christ to be heretics.
That was the MAJORITY of the Christian world at the time!
But...all that doesn't matter to the perfectly logical believers in eternal torment.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
Balder said:
To quote Aimiel:
The Only One Who can deliver you isn't to blame for your shortcomings, He is, however, capable of and actually has already provided for your escape from said fate, Personally. All you have to do is accept the free gift that He offers, instead of finding ways to blame Him for your own mistakes, so that you can feel better about yourself. I'd say your ego is about the same size as Sozo's: gigantic.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Logos_X and Balder,
Worshipping and serving the god of your imagination, which is defined by what you 'picture' him to be with your logic, reasoning or feelings isn't Christianity (acknowledging Him in all your ways) it is idolatry and heresy. God isn't subject to anyone's judgement or descriptions, He has declared in His Word Who and What He is. Rejecting That Word doesn't give one any insight into Truth, it only sets them up for a fall. One day that fall will include falling into the Lake of Fire, if one doesn't repent. Whether you call yourself Christian doesn't matter. Whether you are in relationship with Him does. One day He will say to all those He was never in relationship with, "Depart from Me, I never knew you, into everlsting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." You will say, "That's cruel," or, "That's illogical," but you will fall into flames, nevertheless, except you repent. Repent!!!
Worshipping and serving the god of your imagination, which is defined by what you 'picture' him to be with your logic, reasoning or feelings isn't Christianity (acknowledging Him in all your ways) it is idolatry and heresy. God isn't subject to anyone's judgement or descriptions, He has declared in His Word Who and What He is. Rejecting That Word doesn't give one any insight into Truth, it only sets them up for a fall. One day that fall will include falling into the Lake of Fire, if one doesn't repent. Whether you call yourself Christian doesn't matter. Whether you are in relationship with Him does. One day He will say to all those He was never in relationship with, "Depart from Me, I never knew you, into everlsting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." You will say, "That's cruel," or, "That's illogical," but you will fall into flames, nevertheless, except you repent. Repent!!!
Balder
New member
You both imagine that non-Christians do not recognize wrongdoing, do not feel remorse, do not repent, do not believe in consequences for our actions, etc. All of this is wrong.Aimiel said:
We just disagree on the nature of ultimate justice. We argue that eternal torture in a Lake of Fire is an unjust punishment, for anyone.
Aimiel
Well-known member
You imagine that Christians imagine those things, but that doesn't make them so. We realize what it is like to be an un-beliver, having been one ourselves. We simply want you to know that your argument isn't with us, it is with The Word of God, which says that will be your fate, except you repent. If you don't believe The Word of God, don't try to blame us, we didn't write It, we simply acquiesce to It's Wisdom and precedence over all other sources, including logic, reason and feelings. But don't think that because you've bowed down to one or more of those that your false god(s) will save you, because they don't even exist. :duh:
logos_x
New member
Aimiel said:
Aimiel, we are discussing what the Bible says.
I don't believe it is imaginary to belive God is able to accomplish the salvation of the world. But clearly, if the lake of fire is what you believe it to be He can't.
Eternal torment is the only thing that could prevent Him from doing so. Do you recognize that?
It is interesting that believers in eternal torment use Hell as a motivator to save people...but they don't want God to actually use Hell to motivate people to accept Christ.
The Gospel becomes a great avoidance strategy of Hell, but it is powerless if someone goes there.
You think people that believe God doesn't think eternal torment would be a good thing to do have made up their own god. I think that believers in eternal torment have made up their own god....a god that isn't the God of the Bible.
I think that because I have repented. I repented from portraying God the way the doctrine of eternal torment forces you to. I did so because the Holy Spirit showed me the error of that doctrine.
To turn back to believeing in eternal torment would be to deny what the Lord has said...in His Word.
Have a wonderful day!
Aimiel
Well-known member
He did. He was victorious at Calvary. Accepting or rejecting that victory is in the hands of men..logos_x said:
The Lake of Fire is eternal conscious torment, as described by The Word of God, whether you believe Him before you end up there or not.
Why not? Jesus did. He told us we should fear Him Who has the power to cast body and soul into hell. If you don't fear Him, then you're liable to not believe what He says, and what He says about hell.
I don't believe that God made hell and then said, "It is a good thing," but believe that it is necessary. I believe that hell grieves Him far more than it ever could you or I.
Your thought-processes are obviously as flawed as your reading skills.
That isn't The Holy Spirit. He doesn't refute The Word of God, He wrote it.
I hope you have a miserable day, every single day, until you truly meet The Holy Spirit, Whom you pretend to be in relationship with.
logos_x
New member
PastorKevin said:
Did Polycarp believe in eternal torment?
Now, good things are eternal (aionios) and without end (ateleutetos) with God, and therefore the loss of these is also eternal (aionios) and never-ending (ateleutetos).” [Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 27)
Now...I can't answer for what all of the church fathers believed. But in this quote from Polycarp's Against Heresies shows something profound.
He uses a word...ateleutetos...to discribe eternal....NOT AOINIOS!
This means he did not rely on scripture alone to write his "against heresies"...he added a word to make it never ending.
Whether or not he was a direct disciple of John...it is not a proof that he held to the teaching of the Apostle when he added a word that is not in the Bible to make his argument.
And the fact that he had to add that word to MAKE it mean eternal..and that word is not in the Bible...doesn't make for a very strong argument that he was right.
Clearly, other Church fathers were not in agreement with Polycarp on this point.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Hardly. I care about your soul, and what your opinion or anyone else's is of me is of no importance when compared to that care. Your soul is not only far more important but truly is the only thing that matters. If you're wrong, you could be headed to hell. If I'm wrong, I'll get two slaps on my wrist instead of one. Which should be more heeded? :idea:logos_x said:
Ecumenicist
New member
Aimiel said:
There go those fruits again...
I wonder why impatience, bitterness, and vindictiveness and spite aren't in the list in
Gal 5:22?
logos_x
New member
Aimiel said:
I appreciate that.
Discussing the nature of Hell is in itself a daunting task, isn't it?
But...since the doctrine of eternal torment is the reason so many people reject Christ, I think that showing people where the belief that eternal torment isn't a necessary interpretation is valuable.
This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe. These things command and teach.
(1Ti 4:9-11 KJV)
May the Holy Spirit use this discussion for the furtherance of the Gospel.
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