BRXII Battle talk

Status
Not open for further replies.

Zadok

BANNED
Banned
PastorKevin said:
God's children do not go the Lake of Fire Zadok. God's children spend eternity with Him in Heaven.

Is the entire Church of Laodicea overcomers, pastor K.? They better be? Is the entire Church of Sardis overcomer's, they better be? Demonstrate from the Book of Revelation, the basis for the Lake of Theos/Pur, that all of the seven churches are overcomers, and not a "few" :sheep:
 

PKevman

New member
Zadok said:
PastorKevin said:
Then perhaps you can disclose to us why only the overcomer is not "hurt" by the Lake of Theos/ Pur according to the Revelation? There are precisely 8 passages of Scripture in the Revelation that refer to the overcomer. From that basis, can you tell us if all believers (God's children) are overcomers? If not....oh no.... :doh:

Actually Zadok, we can talk about overcomers, but this has nothing to do with what you originally said. What you have just done is called shifting. Your original statement had nothing to do with overcomers. It was to try to say that God is the father of everyone and that as a loving Father he wouldn't eternally punish anyone. Was that not what you were hinting at? You said:

Zadok said:
Think of it this way Charles: our Father, the Father of all fathers, disciplines for one purpose and one purpose only, retribution. Punishment is the source, and the goal.
Do you have children? What is the purpose of punishment with our children? Yes indeed, not rectitude, not transformation, not change, not the peaceable fruits of righteous but wrath, wrath, wrath.

And you quoted not the Bible, but:

Zadok said:
Many of God's children do not understand that God is actually and truly their Father. They think of Him as a stern Judge, or severe Taskmaster, or at the best as an unapproachable dignitary, seated on a far-off throne, dispensing exacting laws for a frightened and trembling world; and in their terror lest they should fail to meet His requirements they hardly know which way to turn. But of a God who is a Father, tender, and loving, and full of compassion, a God who like a father, will be on their side against the whole universe they have no conception." -Hannah W. Smith-

To this I replied that God's children don't go to the Lake of Fire. We do not believe this. God is not the Father of all mankind, but only those who believe are the sons of adoption and have the right to be called His children. You are trying to trump the argument of unbelievers spending eternity in the Lake of Fire based on a highly faulty argument my friend. I am tied up in a lot of directions right now, but will be free to talk with you further in the future on the other subject you have tried to divert to.

God bless,

PK
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
red77 said:
Hang on......you say we arent punished for our sins? Then supposing that God didnt give the ultimate scarifice of his son then what would have happened then...? Where would people go with no saviour? i was under the impression that traditionally its sin that separates us from God so with no saviour wouldnt your theology claim that hell would be the place you'd end up?
My friend, if you still believe that we are punished for our sins then you have missed the good news of the Gospel of Christ.

No man was able to live the perfect life under the law. Jesus came and lived that perfect life and took our sin to the cross. Jesus joined us in our deserved death under the law to forgive our sins so that we would be able to join Jesus in His resurrected life. Jesus’ death was 100% successful in forgiving all of our sins!

When Jesus died, the curtain in the tabernacle was torn into signaling that the wall that had separated men from God was gone and we could, each of us on our own, know God by knowing Christ as our savior.

If Jesus had not come then we would still be condemned under the law. Upon our death, we would still go to Tarderis or Sheol.

Remember, when Jesus died, He went to Tarderis and welcomed home the saints who were there. He kind of closed the down the old waiting room system because He ushered in a new system that requires no waiting, at least for the believer. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. I still think there is some type of place where the damned go to wait for the their final judgment at the white throne.




red77 said:
If there was no sin then what need for a saviour from it? You bring it all down to black and white 'faith' and I think God knows how fallible and weak we can be as human beings including the tests of faith everyone has no matter what creed they belong to.....you can claim an eternal lake of fire is not evil as much as you wish - you dont believe for one second you'll be suffering the agonies as much as all those who believe in eternal torment dont, by its definition you have to believe you're spared from such a thing!
You are putting the cart before the horse. There is no sin BECAUSE we have already had a savior who saved us from sin. (There is still sin for those who love the law and subject themselves to it.) Your sins are behind God never to be seen again! That is the freedom in Jesus! You are forgiven! We will stumble, sometimes fall flat on our faces, because we are human and prone to sin. Nevertheless, even those sins are forgiven. Jesus was 100% successful in forgiving our sins!

But this is also why hell changed from Tarderis to the lake of fire. Jesus tore down the wall of sin that separated us from God. Our sins DO NOT convict us before God! There is only one thing that convicts us before God, do accept God or do we reject Him? It’s a yes or no question and it determines heaven or the lake of fire for each of us. Do you accept God or reject God? If you accept Him God opens home to heaven with open arms and a happy heart (read the parable of the Prodigal Son). If you reject God then God, rather sadly I think, honors your wish and sends you to a place that you will not have to be with Him.

That is why the lake of fire is not evil. Remember, evil is active opposition to Gods will. The lake of fire was created by God as part of His will so it cannot be evil. I believe I will be spared the agonies of that lake because Jesus is my Lord and Savior. I believe that people who reject Jesus, including friends and family of mine, will spend an eternity in agony. As a human, I am not wild about that but I trust God. I don't know how He will handle that but I fully trust in Him that His final judgments will be Holy and just.

The peace of Christ be with you and Merry Christmass.
 

jasonalun

New member
ChasClean said:
Jason,



What I have a hard time understanding is why some ET believers have such a desire for "aionios" to mean "forever" when talking about punishment. They know it doesn’t have to. They know there is a whole lot of reasonable consistent evidence that God is a discipliner for the sake of restoration. Just like any good parent.

But no, "aionios" has to mean "forever".

No it doesn’t. It only means forever,

I don't have any "desire for 'aionios' to mean 'forever' in regard to punishment." That's what the Greek lexicons say the word means in many examples (both secular and religious) that mirror the contexts of the verses being quoted here. That's how lexicons are put together, ChasClean - textual sources in the original language being translated are examined for words, the context of the sentences the words are found in is taken into account, and all the possible meanings are then listed in the definition of the word, starting with the most common. Liddell-Scott, at least, shows "perpetual, eternal" as its secondary meaning in classical Koine' Greek literature. That is a documented fact. You can contest it, but you better have some very good documentation and research to back it up. So far I haven't seen any. Essentially, it seems logos_x is saying it can mean "eternal" only if it's NOT referring to punishment. If anyone's being arbitrary, it would seem to be logos_x.

Hell is never, ever described in Scripture as being disciplinary or corrective - it is simply described as just punishment for rebelling against a Holy, Just and Loving God.
 

Zadok

BANNED
Banned
PastorKevin said:
[ctually Zadok, we can talk about overcomers, but this has nothing to do with what you originally said. What you have just done is called shifting. Your original statement had nothing to do with overcomers. It was to try to say that God is the father of everyone and that as a loving Father he wouldn't eternally punish anyone. Was that not what you were hinting at?

Our God punishes with one objective in view, the peaceable fruits of righteousness. His punishment is not blind vengeance, but one of rectitude and transformation. His wrath is for a "short" while not unending, mindless torture!. We assess criminal charges to men of this world who follow this kind of scope.

The God and Father of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ declares peace to those who are far off, and to those who are nigh, for through Him we who are nigh and those that are far off, both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Again, pastor K, are all the children of God overcomers? Is all the Church of Sardis overcomers? Is all the Church of Laodicea overcomers according to the Revelation? And why P.K., are ONLY overcomers not "hurt" by the Lake of Theos/ Pur?

I replied that God's children don't go to the Lake of Fire. We do not believe this. God is not the Father of all mankind, but only those who believe are the sons of adoption and have the right to be called His children.

Evidently according to you then, P.K. all the Household of faith are overcomers? Does the Book of Revelation regarding the Seven Churches substantiate this? Where?

You are trying to trump the argument of unbelievers spending eternity in the Lake of Fire based on a highly faulty argument

Not quite, P.K. There is only one segment of our Father's world who are not "hurt" by the Lake of Theos/ Pur....that is the overcomers, of which there are a "few" in Sardis. The fact is this: our God is Consuming Fire, it is His essence, and it is to our Home of the Consuming Fire that believers and unbelievers are moving in this life, and the next.
 

Zadok

BANNED
Banned
jasonalun said:
Essentially, it seems logos_x is saying it can mean "eternal" only if it's NOT referring to punishment.

Nonsense. Aionios is aionios is aionios. There is a rule in Koine: an adjective cannot demonstrate greater scope than the noun upon which it is rooted. In the case of aionios, that noun is aion. Aion is age lasting, and can easily be demonstrated to be so. In fact, aion is expressed in plural form, thus aions of the aions. If aionios means without beginning and ending as per Dr. James Strong etc. what does prov aionios chronos mean to you?

But concentrate for a few moments on punishment. In the only Scripture in the New Testament mentioning "everlasting punishment" in St. Matt. 25, we have a context for the qualifications of aionios kolasis and aionios zoe. My question to you is what does kolasis mean in the Koine, and what does the root word of kolasis (kolazo) mean?

Hell is never, ever described in Scripture as being disciplinary or corrective - it is simply described as just punishment for rebelling against a Holy, Just and Loving God.

And that would be declared where? Certainly not in St. Matthew chapter 25 of our Saviours words regarding everlasting kolasis/ kolazo
 

Zadok

BANNED
Banned
CabinetMaker said:
I believe I will be spared the agonies of that lake because Jesus is my Lord and Savior. I believe that people who reject Jesus, including friends and family of mine, will spend an eternity in agony. As a human, I am not wild about that but I trust God. I don't know how He will handle that but I fully trust in Him that His final judgments will be Holy and just.

C.M. do you know what an intercessor is? Are you willing to exchange your place of glory for friend or family who will spend an eternity in agony?

Can you tell us how the agonies of the Lake of Theos/ Pur compare with the agonies of our God the Consuming Fire?
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
Zadok said:
C.M. do you know what an intercessor is? Are you willing to exchange your place of glory for friend or family who will spend an eternity in agony?
No. We are each accountable for our own belief or unbelief. Whether or not I want to is irrelivant as God does not allow it.

Zadok said:
Can you tell us how the agonies of the Lake of Theos/ Pur compare with the agonies of our God the Consuming Fire?
No. I have experianced neither.
 

Zadok

BANNED
Banned
CabinetMaker said:
No. We are each accountable for our own belief or unbelief. Whether or not I want to is irrelivant as God does not allow it.

So you don't know what an intercessor is. Do you know that Moses stood in the presence of the Blaze said...If You will not take this people in, then blot my name out of the Book of Life. Would you be willing to have your name blotted out of the Scroll?

http://www.onelook.com/?w=intercessor&ls=a

No. I have experianced neither.

You will. Do you intend to dwell with the everlasting burnings? Remember, C.M. our Home is the Consuming Fire; our God whose essense is Fire, and before whom the myriads upon myriads minister to Him. Yes, C.M,. a River of fire streams and issues forth from His Presence, and a blaze of flames is the foundation of His throne. Come closer to the fire, C.M.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
Zadok said:
So you don't know what an intercessor is. Do you know that Moses stood in the presence of the Blaze said...If You will not take this people in, then blot my name out of the Book of Life. Would you be willing to have your name blotted out of the Scroll?
Jesus is my intercessor. He has taken my just punishment so I can stand before God blameless. As I said earlier, I do not believe God will accept my offer of spending eternity hell in my loved ones place.



Zadok said:
You will. Do you intend to dwell with the everlasting burnings? Remember, C.M. our Home is the Consuming Fire; our God whose essense is Fire, and before whom the myriads upon myriads minister to Him. Yes, C.M,. a River of fire streams and issues forth from His Presence, and a blaze of flames is the foundation of His throne. Come closer to the fire, C.M.
You are a little scarry, you know. I don't beliee that God is always manifested as a consuming fire. The descriptions of the throne in Revalations does not portray God and a consuming fire sitting on a throne.
 

Zadok

BANNED
Banned
CabinetMaker said:
You are a little scarry, you know. I don't beliee that God is always manifested as a consuming fire. The descriptions of the throne in Revalations does not portray God and a consuming fire sitting on a throne.

If you think Zadok is "scarry", then please welcome your God & Father.. He is Fire, that is His essence...Fire/ Love/ Spirit/ Light. He is always Fire, always Love, always Spirit and always Light!

I beheld till the thrones were cast down and the Ancient of Days took His throne. His clothing is white as snow (katharos), and the hair of His head is like pure white wool (pure katharos caliber). His throne is a blaze of flames and His wheels are burning fire. A River of fire streams and issues forth from His Presence (the Katharos River). Thousand thousands minister unto Him (myriads without number), and ten thousand times ten thousand stand before Him (myriads without number).
 

Aethril

New member
Kimberlyann said:
Did you agree? Or are you saying that unless something is mentioned in scripture twice, it is not a truth or doctrine?

Deuteronomy covers "witnesses" in great detail but specifically:
Numbers 35:30
Deut 17:6, 19:15
These are in direct reference to gathering evidence or a "finding of fact" to expose sin.
Kimberlyann said:
Why does Peter say "no prophecy is of any private interpretation"?
He says no prophecy "of Scripture". That means fallen men didn't write of their own words, the Holy Spirit was moving them.. v21

Kimberlyann said:
Why does Paul tell us to compare Spiritual with Spiritual?
I believe it's to protect the integrity of the Scriptures.
I don't have a real good answer for you on this one. "Comparing spiritual things with spiritual" could mean comparing spiritual truths with spiritual men.

Here is why:

1 Cor 2:13 "These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

Correct me if I'm wrong but "Compare" can mean to interpret or understand, and the noun "Spirit" is always used either as neuter or masculine so it could be talking about maturity because we see later in chapter 3:1 "And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal , as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal..."

People who are mature can handle spiritual things
 

Zadok

BANNED
Banned
CabinetMaker said:
Jesus is my intercessor. He has taken my just punishment so I can stand before God blameless. As I said earlier, I do not believe God will accept my offer of spending eternity hell in my loved ones place.

The Lord Lesous is the intercessor between God and man. And those joined to Him are just like their Older Brother...intercessors (part of a vast range of union). Not only are we accounted righteous in Him, C.M. (justification), but we are to be "made the righteousness of God in Him" in actuality.

But our God does not excuse the guilty by punishing the innocent. Jesus Christ came to take us to the cross with Him.


Forgiven HERE

The notion that the salvation of Jesus is a salvation from the consequences of our sins, is a false, mean, low notion. The salvation of Christ is salvation from the smallest tendency or leaning to sin. It is a deliverance into the pure air of God’s ways of thinking and feeling. It is a salvation that makes the heart pure, with the will and choice of the heart to be pure. To such a heart, sin is disgusting. It sees a thing as it is,—that is, as God sees it, for God sees everything as it is. The soul thus saved would rather sink into the flames of hell than steal into heaven and skulk there under the shadow of an imputed righteousness. No soul is saved that would not prefer hell to sin. Jesus did not die to save us from punishment; he was called Jesus because he should save his people from their sins. -George MacDonald-
 

Kimberlyann

New member
Aethril said:
Did you agree? Or are you saying that unless something is mentioned in scripture twice, it is not a truth or doctrine?

Deuteronomy covers "witnesses" in great detail but specifically:
Numbers 35:30
Deut 17:6, 19:15
These are in direct reference to gathering evidence or a "finding of fact" to expose sin.

He says no prophecy "of Scripture". That means fallen men didn't write of their own words, the Holy Spirit was moving them.. v21


I don't have a real good answer for you on this one. "Comparing spiritual things with spiritual" could mean comparing spiritual truths with spiritual men.

Here is why:

1 Cor 2:13 "These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

Correct me if I'm wrong but "Compare" can mean to interpret or understand, and the noun "Spirit" is always used either as neuter or masculine so it could be talking about maturity because we see later in chapter 3:1 "And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal , as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal..."

People who are mature can handle spiritual things

This is a topic for another thread.

I'm not really in the mood to debate this today. Its just semantics anyway.

God bless
 

Zadok

BANNED
Banned
"Behold I bring glad tidings of great joy which shall be to all people."

"Little child, if you go to hell there will be a devil at your side to strike you. He will go on striking you every minute for ever and ever without stopping. The first stroke will make your body as bad as the body of Job, covered, from head to foot, with sores and ulcers. The second stroke will make your body twice as bad as the body of job. The third stroke will make your body three times as bad as the body of Job. The fourth stroke will make your body four times as bad as the body of Job. How, then, will your body be after the devil has been striking it every moment for a hundred million of years without stopping? Perhaps at this moment, seven o'clock in the evening, a child is just going into hell. Tomorrow evening, at seven o'clock, go and knock at the gates of hell and ask what the child is doing. The devils will go and look. They will come back again and say, the child is burning. Go in a week and ask what the child is doing; you will get the same answer, it is burning. Go in a year and ask, the same answer comes - it is burning. Go in a million of years and ask the same question, the answer is just the same - it is burning. So, if you go for ever and ever, you will always get the same answer - it is burning in the fire." - Rev. J. FURNISS, C.S.S.R.-

"The fifth dungeon is the red hot oven. The little child is in the red hot oven. Hear how it screams to come out; see how it turns and twists itself about in the fire. It beats its head against the roof of the oven. It stamps its little feet on the floor." - ib. "Gather in one, in your mind, an assembly of all those men or women, from whom, whether in history or in fiction, your memory most shrinks, gather in mind all that is most loathsome, most revolting * * * conceive the fierce, fiery eyes of hate, spite, frenzied rage, ever fixed on thee, looking thee through and through with hate *** hear those yells of blaspheming, concentrated hate, as they echo along the lurid vault of hell; everyone hating everyone Yet a fixedness in that state in which the hardened malignant sinner dies, involves, without any further retribution of God, this endless misery." Sermon by the Rev. E.B. Pusey DD.

"When you die your soul will be tormented alone; that will be a hell for it: but at the day of judgment your body will join your soul, and then you wilt have twin hells, your soul sweating drops of blood, and your body suffused with agony. In fire, exactly like that we have on earth, your body will lie, asbestos like, for ever unconsumed, all your veins roads for the feet of pain to travel on, every nerve a string, on which the devil shall for ever play his diabolical tune of hell's unutterable lament." Sermon on the Resurrection of the Dead. - Rev. C. H. SPURGEON.-
 

glassjester

Well-known member
I brought this up a few months back when I talked with Logos_X and others on the same topic.

Of Judas, Christ says: "it were better for him, if that man had not been born" (Matthew 26:24). But this would not have been true if Judas was ever to be released from hell and admitted to eternal happiness.

-Catholic Encyclopedia
 

Kimberlyann

New member
Zadok said:
"Behold I bring glad tidings of great joy which shall be to all people."

"Little child, if you go to hell there will be a devil at your side to strike you. He will go on striking you every minute for ever and ever without stopping. The first stroke will make your body as bad as the body of Job, covered, from head to foot, with sores and ulcers. The second stroke will make your body twice as bad as the body of job. The third stroke will make your body three times as bad as the body of Job. The fourth stroke will make your body four times as bad as the body of Job. How, then, will your body be after the devil has been striking it every moment for a hundred million of years without stopping? Perhaps at this moment, seven o'clock in the evening, a child is just going into hell. Tomorrow evening, at seven o'clock, go and knock at the gates of hell and ask what the child is doing. The devils will go and look. They will come back again and say, the child is burning. Go in a week and ask what the child is doing; you will get the same answer, it is burning. Go in a year and ask, the same answer comes - it is burning. Go in a million of years and ask the same question, the answer is just the same - it is burning. So, if you go for ever and ever, you will always get the same answer - it is burning in the fire." - Rev. J. FURNISS, C.S.S.R.-

"The fifth dungeon is the red hot oven. The little child is in the red hot oven. Hear how it screams to come out; see how it turns and twists itself about in the fire. It beats its head against the roof of the oven. It stamps its little feet on the floor." - ib. "Gather in one, in your mind, an assembly of all those men or women, from whom, whether in history or in fiction, your memory most shrinks, gather in mind all that is most loathsome, most revolting * * * conceive the fierce, fiery eyes of hate, spite, frenzied rage, ever fixed on thee, looking thee through and through with hate *** hear those yells of blaspheming, concentrated hate, as they echo along the lurid vault of hell; everyone hating everyone Yet a fixedness in that state in which the hardened malignant sinner dies, involves, without any further retribution of God, this endless misery." Sermon by the Rev. E.B. Pusey DD.

"When you die your soul will be tormented alone; that will be a hell for it: but at the day of judgment your body will join your soul, and then you wilt have twin hells, your soul sweating drops of blood, and your body suffused with agony. In fire, exactly like that we have on earth, your body will lie, asbestos like, for ever unconsumed, all your veins roads for the feet of pain to travel on, every nerve a string, on which the devil shall for ever play his diabolical tune of hell's unutterable lament." Sermon on the Resurrection of the Dead. - Rev. C. H. SPURGEON.-


If the Church is right about eternal hell then that angel must be wrong. Because there will be no great joy for the billions of people who are going to burn in a literal fire for eternity. Just indescribable pain and misery. To think a Loving God is capable of such gruesome acts is beyond me.

To bad we can't believe these Scriptures.

Oh, give thanks to the Lord, for He is good! For His mercy endures forever. (1Ch 16:34)


Who is a God like You, Pardoning iniquity And passing over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage? He does not retain His anger forever, Because He delights in mercy. (Micah 7:18)



Praise the Lord! Oh, give thanks to the Lord, for He is good! For His mercy endures forever. (Ps 106:1)
 

Nomad

New member
Kimberlyann said:
If the Church is right about eternal hell then that angel must be wrong. Because there will be no great joy for the billions of people who are going to burn in a literal fire for eternity. Just indescribable pain and misery. To think a Loving God is capable of such gruesome acts is beyond me.

To bad we can't believe these Scriptures.

Oh, give thanks to the Lord, for He is good! For His mercy endures forever. (1Ch 16:34)

Who is a God like You, Pardoning iniquity And passing over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage? He does not retain His anger forever, Because He delights in mercy. (Micah 7:18)

Praise the Lord! Oh, give thanks to the Lord, for He is good! For His mercy endures forever. (Ps 106:1)

Is "To bad we can't believe these Scriptures." a sarcastic reference to the verses you quote after that?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top