BRXII Battle talk

[red77]

Thank you for responding, Pastor K. And thank you for your good wishes. Unfortunately, I think you worship a monster, if you believe God fits unbelievers with eternal bodies so that they can undergo inescapable, unending torment.

It doesnt make any sense on any level - except to those who believe in ET and have escaped from the unending torment themselves, this message only turns people away from faith - not towards it......

 

[Nineveh]

Two things right up front:
1st: What does "all in all" mean to you?
2nd: This convo will be a waste of time. Call me a prophet if you like.

Do you really think that everyone who isnt a christian "love" themselves and are consciously sticking two fingers up at God?

Yes. Even the "loving/kind" pagans who tolerate and accept anything and everything except Christ.

is everybody living it up and having a whale of a time in this life who dont believe?

And those who are miserable and have their conscience at them all the time.

Does it make it easier to imagine that all who dont believe are hedonists?

I dunno, does it? You seem to think that's the way all people act for some reason.

I'd take a reality check if I were you and have a look around, you may wake up a bit, I've just had news recently that my oldest friend is having chemo and radio treatment for a malignant brain tumour, he's an agnostic and we've talked about this stuff a few times, he may not 'believe' but he has a big heart and I'd trust the guy with my own life, he's facing this hurdle with more courage than myself I dont mind admitting...

Maybe you should share the gospel with your friend? Instead of reinforcing their idea they are "good enough" you need to tell them God has a standard they don't meet and they need to repent and accept Christ.

another friend of mine lost his father over the new year and has hardly had a 'rich man' lifestyle either, at work I encounter letters from thousands of people who have hit hard times/beravement/sickness/depression and statistically I doubt that most would be believers........its so easy to say 'justice' when you're not one who will suffer, it truly is sickening in the extreme hearing this absolute compassionless judgemental crap

What's worse than hearing the Truth is comforting these lost souls in their sin. Telling them they have "age during" to repent. Telling them they surely are good enough to stand before the Righteous Creator God without being cleansed in the Blood of the Lamb.

And we never see hell or the lake of fire mentioned in this verse either do we? It has to be construed to interpret the passage that way as has been said time and time again....

"This verse"? I was talking about the whole Bible.

the actual passage that declares that God will subject the entire universe to himself and be all in all would be enough to give a 'hint' that the LOF isnt some fiery residence separated from thepresence of God, the word 'all' may not always literally mean 'all' in every verse in the Bible but in this passage there aint no hyperbole that I can see.......

You still fail to realize "cutting them off" is also a form of subjugation.

I am glad you realize "all" has limits.

 

[Balder]

In the fine tradition of "truthsmack," isn't it loving to warn a brother or sister that even
though they think they are worshipping God, in fact, based on the fruits which are
born of this entity they worship, they are worshipping the beast instead?

Well, I certainly think so...

 

[Nineveh]

if there were no works of the Devil...would there be any Hell? :think:

A reply has a "." at the end not a "?". Want to try answering again? Points for the dodge though.

What makes endless punishment "just" Nin? Because it is God that ends up doing it?

God is the One that puts an end to the unrepentant's reign of terror. God puts them in a place where they can hurt themselves and others for all eternity, because that's what their heart is intent on doing. Now, while there is life and hope to influence their hearts, is the time to preach the Gospel!

Such is the outcome of the teaching that the aions associated with punishment are endless. You can't even see that there is to be a restitutuon (apokatastasis) of ALL things in the future at all.

And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Golly, that ALL had limits, didn't it? Here again, yanking a tiny phrase out of context does not leave you free to liberate people from the lake.

It always is spoken of as ages...not endless misery.

...as we kneel and bow to pay homage to young's....

How long is an eon, Nin?

How long is "eternal", logos? How about "forever"?

Read the last chapter of Revelation again for the first time. :think:

Will it make the part I quoted go away?

What is the difference between life and death, Nin?

God.

There is a big difference between the two.

Yes. There is. Eternal life and eternal damnation to be exact.

Again, the LAST enemy to be DESTROYED is DEATH!

And here again, people are getting dumped into the garbage heap after death. I mean we don;t need to get picky here, because all of it gets thrown into the garbage heap about the same time. Either way, all the refuse winds up in the garbage dump in the end. Why do you insist God has to live in or be party to or actually have in Himself all things unclean that He threw away? Do you do that? Toss away the rotten egg shells, then keep them around?

 

[Nineveh]

Matt 3:
11"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 12His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Chaff is a part of the wheat before the winnowing occurs.

Christ does the winnowing, not us.

And the good stuff gets gathered while the trash gets burned up.

 

[Nineveh]

In the fine tradition of "truthsmack," isn't it loving to warn a brother or sister that even
though they think they are worshipping God, in fact, based on the fruits which are
born of this entity they worship, they are worshipping the beast instead?

Well, I certainly think so...

CLUE!!!

 

[Ecumenicist]

I would have to say that being baptized with His Holy Fire (He is A Fire from The Loins up and from The Loins down) is a separate issue from those who are burned by fire. Have you ever noticed that there are two different verbs in that passage, regarding how the fire is applied? I believe that it is the same thing (God's Presence) but has a different effect upon sheep than it does upon goats. The one He has accepted, because they are washed in The Blood of The Lamb; but the other He punishes, because of their un-belief.

In the process of being baptized with fire, the chaff is seperated from the wheat
and burned up. Just like in being baptized with water, one is cleansed. Its pretty
simple.

 

[Ecumenicist]

And the good stuff gets gathered while the trash gets burned up.

Absolutely!

 

[Ecumenicist]

CLUE!!!

The butler in the den with a candlestick.

 

[Nineveh]

Absolutely!

I guess you miss the symbolism there. God isn't seperating the sin from the sinner.

 

[Nineveh]

The butler in the den with a candlestick.

The pagan in the theology site agreeing with false doctrine...

 

[Ecumenicist]

I guess you miss the symbolism there. God isn't seperating the sin from the sinner.

Have you ever rolled field wheat in your hand, and seen husks flake away from
the grain? That's what threshing is.

 

[Nineveh]

Have you ever rolled field wheat in your hand, and seen husks flake away from
the grain? That's what threshing is.

Dave, have you ever noticed it's people who are going to the lake, not just their unrepentant sin?

"And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

 

[Ecumenicist]

Dave, have you ever noticed it's people who are going to the lake, not just their unrepentant sin?

"And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

Direct question asked Nin, regarding a specific scripture.

 

[red77]

Two things right up front:
1st: What does "all in all" mean to you?
2nd: This convo will be a waste of time. Call me a prophet if you like.

1: That God is all in all, he reconciles his entire creation, he puts everything - and evryone into subjection to himself, that he accomplishes his own will in the fullness of time.

2: oh i very much suspect you're right on that one, i could have achieved 'prophet' status myself....

Yes. Even the "loving/kind" pagans who tolerate and accept anything and everything except Christ.

Who so often display the characteristics of compassion/empathy and love for their fellow being that many Christians could learn from, your idea of sticking two fingers up is a very strange one,

And those who are miserable and have their conscience at them all the time.

and death/bereavment/illness/depression/ etc etc etc

I dunno, does it? You seem to think that's the way all people act for some reason.

oh what a joke! Its you who claim that people live for themselves and love themselves Nin - not me!

Maybe you should share the gospel with your friend? Instead of reinforcing their idea they are "good enough" you need to tell them God has a standard they don't meet and they need to repent and accept Christ.

my friend was around when I was in the pentecostal church, we'd both heard people saying one of our freinds - who was 15 - was hellbound for eternal torment through those who believe like yourself, what I "need" to do NIneveh is be a friend as much as I can for someone who I care about very much and pray for his recovery as well as for him to come to faith,

What's worse than hearing the Truth is comforting these lost souls in their sin. Telling them they have "age during" to repent. Telling them they surely are good enough to stand before the Righteous Creator God without being cleansed in the Blood of the Lamb.

Oh and what would you have me tell my friend who's just lost his dad? That unless he repented he's awaiting a fiery torture pit for eternity? And what of those who have already died and left behind loved ones coping with the grief and the loss and their pain, another insidious part of your message of ET, the pain in this life doesnt matter, I seem to recall one person who thought differently and had his heart moved with compassion several times for those who were suffering - do you know who he was?

"This verse"? I was talking about the whole Bible.

You were addressing one verse in question, one which doesnt mention hell or a lake of fire at all without it being interpreted to do so

You still fail to realize "cutting them off" is also a form of subjugation.

subjugation TO God.....and then God is all in all, this can hardly be cutting them off!

I am glad you realize "all" has limits.

But God doesnt - and in that particular verse ALL pretty obviously means ALL.....

 

[logos_x]

A reply has a "." at the end not a "?". Want to try answering again? Points for the dodge though.

And...you didn't answer the question. Was that a dodge or a ram?

God is the One that puts an end to the unrepentant's reign of terror. God puts them in a place where they can hurt themselves and others for all eternity, because that's what their heart is intent on doing. Now, while there is life and hope to influence their hearts, is the time to preach the Gospel!

So the people who hold your view believe. But that isn't the only way to put an end to sin...in fact, it doesn't put and end to it at all. All this says is that God, in the end, acquiesces to evil and allows it to continue forever. This is a God soft on sin.

And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Golly, that ALL had limits, didn't it? Here again, yanking a tiny phrase out of context does not leave you free to liberate people from the lake.

It has no limits.

How long is "eternal", logos? How about "forever"?

So...changing the meaning of eon is what it takes to believe in "eternal" torment.
Somehow you still miss the point though.

Will it make the part I quoted go away?

No, it doesn't go away. There are ages where separation from among the people are fulfilled. Simple.

God.

So..when death is destroyed, God must do that...and IF it is destroyed, it no longer exists, and holds no one captive.
You can't delete the resurrection.

Yes. There is. Eternal life and eternal damnation to be exact.

Aionion life, and aionion chastisment, Nin...if you really want to be exact.

And here again, people are getting dumped into the garbage heap after death. I mean we don;t need to get picky here, because all of it gets thrown into the garbage heap about the same time. Either way, all the refuse winds up in the garbage dump in the end. Why do you insist God has to live in or be party to or actually have in Himself all things unclean that He threw away? Do you do that? Toss away the rotten egg shells, then keep them around?

Do you throw away the good with the bad Nin?
Can't the "unclean" be cleansed?

People are very complex things...and God for some crazy reason values them. What makes a person "garbage" Nin? Isn't it a LACK of what God is, of who God is?

God saves sinners. You would have Him throw them away FOREVER and never save them. Why bother keeping them around at all if He has no intention of saving anything? Might as well annihilate them so He wouldn't have a corner of His new creation reserved so "sinner garbage" can continue to hurt each other forever. Instead, you have God giving them a room to sin in...under conditions of burning torture...and call it "justice" for no reason other than that God (supposedly) is completely satisfied with that.

Well, He isn't satisfied. And we shouldn't be either.

 

[Balder]

Just a curiosity question for Nin, PastorK, Aimiel, and others who believe in the eternal torment doctrine:

If you had your druthers, which view would you PREFER to be correct? Which would strike you as the better, more morally, emotionally, and spiritually satisfying result?

A) God brings all beings to his breast -- some directly, and some through the fire, but all coming eventually to be cleaned out and made perfect for him, to serve him and rejoice with him forever?

B) God gives sinners (the majority of humanity) indestructable bodies and leaves them all to a fate of eternal conscious torment?

I expect some will say, "It doesn't matter what I think...," and maybe ultimately that is true, but I am still interested in hearing which scenario you, personally, would prefer.

 

[Lighthouse]

I accept that, in your belief though - if you still hold to it - it means people are resurrected to die physically and spiritually again - for ever? Is that right? No disrespect here, I dont hold to annihilationism as much as ET - although its far preferable to ET than endless suffering, and to be fair I can actually see more support for Annihilationaism than ET too, death in ET means torment, death amongst the annihalationists means just that - death, not existing - perishing etc - is this how you interpret these passages?

You need to rephrase the first question, so I know exactly what you mean.

As for the last question, I believe that it is possible those verses mean that.

 

[Redfin]

"Maybe you should share the gospel with your friend? Instead of reinforcing their idea they are "good enough"..."

"Telling them they surely are good enough to stand before the Righteous Creator God without being cleansed in the Blood of the Lamb."

If Christian Universalism taught that, I would be at your side Nin, denouncing it with all my strength.

It does not teach that. :nono:

 

[Ecumenicist]

It doesnt make any sense on any level - except to those who believe in ET and have escaped from the unending torment themselves, this message only turns people away from faith - not towards it......

Could it be that ET is a selfish way of interpreting scripture?