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  • Originally posted by red77
    So like Aimiel you think that everyone knows for sure that God exists based on this passage?
    They can outwardly deny it all they want, but they all know they're wrong.


    Well how can death be picked up and thrown anywhere? Its intangible and could hardly be damaged by literal fire, you dont know why people dont believe the lake of fire to be literal? Because of the symbolism of death being 'thrown' in there?
    Death will be no more, at that time, though. And that's all that really matters.



    The pastor thinks that perfect and holy justice is served by people being tormented in fire forever, you seem to think its more just for people to be annihilated instead of eternally tormented, I was just asking you to explain how you see things differently than the pastor
    I'm not 100% percent on annihilationism though. ET coould be right. And I won't deny that.


    That was testified at the time, in this verse it says the ransom at the cross for all WILL be testified to......




    God is the saviour of all men especially of believers......
    God wills all men to be safe and come to a knowledge of the truth....
    You're saying He forces us.



    God wills all men to come to a knowledge of the truth, how God would accomplish this is up to God, and yes - i honestly think that everyone with a knowledge of the truth in front of them would not reject it, every knee will bow and every tongue confess
    They can confes all they want. If God has decided that it's too late, then it's too late.

    If you want to defnd your stance, use the Bible. If you're going to quote it, ell us what verse you're quoing.
    sigpic

    Comment


    • Originally posted by stipe
      Last question. If my ultimate destination is certain regardless of my actions, why are my actions considered so vital?
      This has probably already been answered, but as I see it, Christian Universalism teaches that our ultimate destination is based on our actions. (Qualifier - said actions are necessary but not sufficient, though.)

      But since our actions are ultimately certain (belief leading to repentance, if not in this life then in the next), our ultimate destination becomes certain as a result.
      Last edited by Redfin; January 4th, 2007, 04:06 AM.
      "The truly wise talk little about religion, and are not given to taking sides on doctrinal issues...
      They have no time, they say, for that kind of thing.
      They have enough to do in trying to faithfully practice what is beyond dispute."

      -- George MacDonald

      Comment


      • Originally posted by stipe
        Another question. So we pay for our sins in heaven?
        All sin has been paid for by Christ. It is only faith in His payment that will rescue anyone from hell, now and/or in eternity.

        Good questions. Sorry if I'm repetitious. Trying to get caught up.
        "The truly wise talk little about religion, and are not given to taking sides on doctrinal issues...
        They have no time, they say, for that kind of thing.
        They have enough to do in trying to faithfully practice what is beyond dispute."

        -- George MacDonald

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Lighthouse
          They can outwardly deny it all they want, but they all know they're wrong.
          Well i 'll leave it to God to judge each person's heart on this one, he'll know better than any of us....


          Death will be no more, at that time, though. And that's all that really matters.
          That doesnt explain how you believe the LOF to be either literal or figurative, you should have reasons one way or the other


          I'm not 100% percent on annihilationism though. ET coould be right. And I won't deny that.
          but why are you veering towards annihilationism? What is your reasoning for believing it presently? The pastor thinks perfect justice is eternal torment, why dont you agree?


          how can I put this? If something is described as "will" be testified to then its the future tense, is that right? If the ransom was already paid at the cross then the word "will" would have no place in the verse, now can you explain why this is?


          You're saying He forces us.
          of course I'm not, is God not capable of accomplishing his will without force? What makes you think that anyone once they're made aware of the truth would want to deny it?

          They can confes all they want. If God has decided that it's too late, then it's too late.

          If you want to defnd your stance, use the Bible. If you're going to quote it, ell us what verse you're quoing.
          And how do you know that God decrees that its too late? do you think the confession is 'forced'? On the one hand you think its wrong for God to force people to see the truth but not to make people confess? I think you're well aware that these verses are from the Bible, I dont always have time to quote each verse while on breaks at work.............!
          "Either these curtains go or I do...."

          - Oscar Wilde on deathbed

          Comment


          • Originally posted by stipe
            And we face this judgement, but the penalty is always heaven? Or we face this punishment in heaven..?
            All will be judged.

            Those who already have Christ's righteousness will go to heaven.

            Those who do not will be punished by hell until they turn to Christ.
            "The truly wise talk little about religion, and are not given to taking sides on doctrinal issues...
            They have no time, they say, for that kind of thing.
            They have enough to do in trying to faithfully practice what is beyond dispute."

            -- George MacDonald

            Comment


            • Originally posted by stipe
              And for those who haven't "done enough" to gain the reward?
              No one gains the reward by doing enough.

              We gain the reward by trusting that Jesus did enough.
              "The truly wise talk little about religion, and are not given to taking sides on doctrinal issues...
              They have no time, they say, for that kind of thing.
              They have enough to do in trying to faithfully practice what is beyond dispute."

              -- George MacDonald

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Nineveh
                It's not like I haven't tried to hold many discussions with you. But you just don't seem willing. Besides, it was your first post to me back on 409. So it's not like I came looking for another fruitless convo with you.



                And again... another paragraph worth of red not liking the replies.



                It's obvious you have your docrtine and you are sticking with it. To be quite honest with you, I'd rather read a real answer to stipe's last question to you than continue another useless convo.
                I'm not willing to waste time holding a conversation with someone who's constantly evasive and finds attempts at condescension equal some form of intelligent debate, its not a question of not liking your replies, half the time there's nothing to reply to, I'm tired of the same routine....
                "Either these curtains go or I do...."

                - Oscar Wilde on deathbed

                Comment


                • Originally posted by PastorKevin
                  Sometimes good and Godly people disagree on things. This hardly means we JUNK the whole Bible. It simply means we need to take more time and pray and study the Word of God more deeply.
                  Great point, PK! Neither should we junk each other.

                  Please forgive me for when I have not reflected that truth.
                  "The truly wise talk little about religion, and are not given to taking sides on doctrinal issues...
                  They have no time, they say, for that kind of thing.
                  They have enough to do in trying to faithfully practice what is beyond dispute."

                  -- George MacDonald

                  Comment


                  • TAKE THE ETERNAL TORMENTOR'S CHALLENGE:

                    This requires only ONE feat of scriptural perspicacity.

                    Cite any passage of scripture that clearly proves that one's salvational status becomes static (immutable) after physical death.

                    PK, since you're now cut-&-pasting, this should be a snap!
                    "The truly wise talk little about religion, and are not given to taking sides on doctrinal issues...
                    They have no time, they say, for that kind of thing.
                    They have enough to do in trying to faithfully practice what is beyond dispute."

                    -- George MacDonald

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by red77
                      how can I put this? If something is described as "will" be testified to then its the future tense, is that right? If the ransom was already paid at the cross then the word "will" would have no place in the verse, now can you explain why this is?
                      1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

                      What does it mean to testify Red?


                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Redfin
                        TAKE THE ETERNAL TORMENTOR'S CHALLENGE:

                        This requires only ONE feat of scriptural perspicacity.

                        Cite any passage of scripture that clearly proves that one's salvational status becomes static (immutable) after physical death.

                        PK, since you're now cut-&-pasting, this should be a snap!
                        At least I am cut and pasting my own stuff buddy. And I am tying it in with new stuff that I am posting in this thread....AND I am pasting stuff from the Battle Royale which is WHAT THIS THREAD IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT!

                        As to your question it was answered in the Battle Royale. If you didn't read it tough! How about you respond to the myriad of questions I have asked of Universalists that have not been answered?


                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by PastorKevin
                          Say Red, as long as you are saying that eternal torment is NOT a Biblical doctrine because different Christians believe differen things, then let's see if your logic holds through when it involves YOUR OWN beliefs:
                          Ok, lets see......

                          Logos believes the Lake of Fire is a literal fire. You don't believe it is a literal fire. Can YOU explain why YOUR doctrines on the subject of the Lake of Fire are different? And to use your OWN analogies, how can Universalism be true if so?
                          Universal salvation is about God achieving his will and reconciling all to himself, if logos does in fact believe the fire to be literal as in burning flames then we will differ on that as I dont, I'd be interested to hear Logos say this is what he believes though as that hasnt been the impression that I've got.....either way the pivotal part of our belief is that God accomplishes his own will, the LOF as with much of revelation is open to all sorts of differing interpretaions due to the symbolism - and in any belief there will be differences on theological aspects - but I doubt you'll find very many among those who believe that God is 100% successful in the end....

                          (Remember I am not saying that this is what makes Universalism false teaching, I am simply showing you how your own logic doesn't work)
                          Except it does work, the fundamentals of universal salvation are inherent in its own description, everything is reconciled to God, God is 100% successful in accomplishing his will, whatever theological differences there are between those who believe this are complete side issues, the goal is achieved by God and that is what is at the root

                          Universalism is false teaching because the Word of God condemns it as such. You cannot condemn what the Bible says about unbelievers spending eternity in the Lake of Fire with clear Scriptures, so you attempt to do it by pitting the beliefs of Christians against each other.
                          pastor, you have been supplied with clear verses on numerous occasions, some of which i will take the time to post here for you to see again.......
                          Also the inconsistency of those who ascribe to ET is just another factor of why ET doesnt hold water - not the main one, the main reason why ET doesnt work is it goes directly against scriptures of God being able to fulfill his will......such as:

                          Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might
                          gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being pedestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
                          (Eph 1:9-12)

                          (Now how much clearer does this need to get? this verse clearly states that God within his own parameters of time -no matter how long that may be- accomplishes his will, its God's purpose, God's pleasure to do this, he works all things out according to his will . Now if its God's will to all men to a knowledge of the truth and have them be safe then hey, I'm not going to argue with God who states that he will work all things out according to that will....)

                          For the Lord will not cast off forever: But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.
                          (Lam 3:31)

                          (How does the Lord have people burning in torment with no end for this to be true? does God not have a multitude of tender mercies? Does his wrath win out in the end over his love? does mercy in effect not triumph over judgement ultimately?)

                          For he will have put all things in subjection under His feet. And when He shall have declared that All things are in subjection, it will be with the manifest exception of Him who has reduced them all to subjection to Him. But when the whole universe has been made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also become subject to Him who has made the universe subject to Him, in order that God may be all in all.
                          (1Cor:27-28)

                          (Will God be all in all -or some in all...? It seems that God has everything in tune with his own will, or is this not the case?)

                          “We both labor and suffer reproach because we trust in the living God who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.” I Tim. 4:10.

                          (this is obviously just as clear, although if you can explain how this doesnt read as straightforwardly as it appears then please explain again - this time while keeping the word 'especially' intact....not easy.......)

                          “And having made peace through the blood of the cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in heaven or things on earth.” Col. 1:20

                          (again, how is this achieved if eternal torment is the outcome, just another case of "all not meaning all"?, its usually the only response given to this verse as there's not much other that can be given if you're already in the mindset that God cant in fact accomplish his own will.......)

                          that is just a handful of verses that are pretty clear in their context and there's no twisting or distorting necessary, so please explain how they are so far 'out of context' and that they dont or cant mean what they say....

                          Here is a newsflash:

                          Many people are simply wrong in their interpretations of Scriptures. I am sure when the glorious Day comes and I stand before my Lord, there will be things that I will know and understand fully that I don't know or understand now. But the doctrine of the eternality of the Lake of Fire and God's judgments on wicked, UNREDEEMED sinners and the wicked UNREDEEMED fallen angels is NOT one of them.

                          Good day and God bless.
                          Then until you're open to the fact that you yourself may be wrong or fallible in your interpretations - instead of everyone who disagrees - you will remain convinced that God cant accomplish his will, that mans 'free' will wins out, except that God works things all things after the counsel of his will........

                          Good day and God bless you too pastor
                          "Either these curtains go or I do...."

                          - Oscar Wilde on deathbed

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by red77
                            what is death cast into pastor? A literal fire? Can you please explain in basic terms how an intangible like death can be 'picked up' and then 'cast'.....into anything? Of course I see it as symbolic....! I cant honestly understand how it can make any sense to read it literally at all....! And as for the rest then I find it more than possible that people arent literally 'cast' into something much the same as death isnt......I dont pretend to understand revelation pastor, a lot of it I (and others in my experience) have had difficulty in explaining because of the metaphorical signals that it's swamped in
                            But i recognise symbolism when I see it....
                            For the last 'enemy' to be any danger to The Lord, it would have to be a living spirit, which has the ability to lead sheep astray, or keep goats from ever being turned into sheep; the implication is that death and hell, in addition to being what they are or what we understand them as (we do have limited information only about both) they are spirits who will be punished eternally, just as Satan will, as well as all those whose names are not written in The Lamb's Book of Life.
                            "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

                            If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by red77
                              Stipe - I can only give you the answers as to how I see them, its important to me to try and live a good life and feel worthy of calling myself a Christian, not for selfish reasons but because I believe its what God wants me to do,
                              I don't really mind what reasons you give for living a Godly life, though I'd prefer it if you were actually aware of what you believed enough to describe what's going on for you. If you're doing what's right then I can have no complaint, but when you insist that others should live Godly lives without believing as they do you have no rational grounds to do so when you do not know what you believe.

                              Originally posted by red77
                              As to your question....again who knows? If God decided that the world wasnt really worth saving then I would doubt that he would have gone ahead and created it in the first place, if the world did still exist and was in a fallen state and Jesus wasnt sent then I suspect the world would be worse than what it is now, life here would be worse and then just death......thats just my opinion on that and i could well be wrong, thankfully its pretty moot anyway.....
                              My question is very specific. You should really understand quite clearly why it is necessary for Jesus to have saved us. The best way to ram the truth home is to imagine life without salvation. What happens to people when Jesus has not saved them Red?
                              Where is the evidence for a global flood?
                              E≈mc2
                              "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

                              "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
                              -Bob B.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by stipe
                                I don't really mind what reasons you give for living a Godly life, though I'd prefer it if you were actually aware of what you believed enough to describe what's going on for you. If you're doing what's right then I can have no complaint, but when you insist that others should live Godly lives without believing as they do you have no rational grounds to do so when you do not know what you believe.
                                But I do know what I believe....! I believe that God will reconcile everyone unto himself, that is my faith, i believe God accomplishes his will and at some point in time everyone will have a knowledge of the truth. I dont 'insist' that everyone shares the same, as long as there's human beings on this plane there'll be different opinions/beliefs/differences, my reply to your earlier question about why things matter in this life in how we treat others if all are eventually reconciled was to explain that our actions towards and interactions with others should be important regardless of the outcome, Jesus himself taught how to love our neighbour several times, the parable of the good samaritan for example....


                                My question is very specific. You should really understand quite clearly why it is necessary for Jesus to have saved us. The best way to ram the truth home is to imagine life without salvation. What happens to people when Jesus has not saved them Red?
                                and I do, from our own sinful nature and death - and to bring us life, if there was no salvation then there would be no hope, what you seem to be driving at (and correct me if I'm wrong) is what of those who dont find salvation in this existence, well, my answer is this: They are still saved by Jesus....Jesus's sacrifice was for all and covers all, if you want me to say what I think would happen to anyone who wasnt saved in your example of God not sacrificing his son then i believe that We would all have an utterly miserable experience in this world - and would then die after a pointless life and then die and cease to exist......although like i also said earlier i cant imagine why God would go to the trouble of creating this world in the first place, is this anywhere nearer answering your question?
                                "Either these curtains go or I do...."

                                - Oscar Wilde on deathbed

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