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  • Originally posted by Aimiel
    He knows his fate. He knows that he isn't allowed any relief from the suffering. He knows he would't be granted the wish for the fire to be put out, even though you believe that it will be. He knows he can't have a shower or a bucket of water, and simply wants just a drop, thinking maybe he can convince Abraham to bend the rules, just that much. He also knows about his limitations. He knows that the 'great gulf' which has obviously been 'breached' for the sake of The Word of God so that Abraham and Lazarus might visit, to illustrate the point for Jesus' sake and all those who might believe upon Him for salvation due to the illustration is still so great that no one can cross it or have any form of communication with those who are damned. As for your question about him being able to speak coherently, The Lord is capable of doing as He wills, and giving a man enough relief from suffering to be able to answer Him is certainly within His Abilities, no matter how small your imagainary god might be.
    Didn't you try to refute my comments about bodhisattvas ministering to people in hell by saying that that breach can never be crossed? Because here you are saying it is possible after all.
    "Perhaps everything terrible is in its deepest being something that needs our love" ~ Rainer Maria Rilke

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Aimiel
      He knows his fate. He knows that he isn't allowed any relief from the suffering. He knows he would't be granted the wish for the fire to be put out, even though you believe that it will be. He knows he can't have a shower or a bucket of water, and simply wants just a drop, thinking maybe he can convince Abraham to bend the rules, just that much. He also knows about his limitations. He knows that the 'great gulf' which has obviously been 'breached' for the sake of The Word of God so that Abraham and Lazarus might visit, to illustrate the point for Jesus' sake and all those who might believe upon Him for salvation due to the illustration is still so great that no one can cross it or have any form of communication with those who are damned. As for your question about him being able to speak coherently, The Lord is capable of doing as He wills, and giving a man enough relief from suffering to be able to answer Him is certainly within His Abilities, no matter how small your imagainary god might be.
      I just dont know how to respond to this! You just cant accept that this isnt literal can you? Where does it say that God gave the rich man any respite from his suffering? Doesnt the rich man say he's in agony in the flame??! Even if he was given respite you would still think that he would only ask for a drop of water for his tongue????? Total supposition on your part and simple logic is against you, have you actually heard of symbolism??????
      My small 'imaginary' God can restore his entire world Aimiel, can yours?
      "Either these curtains go or I do...."

      - Oscar Wilde on deathbed

      Comment


      • Originally posted by PastorKevin
        But you are so mistaken. The gospel doesn't rest on that. The gospel rests on the fact that Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God came to this earth and humbled Himself to become a man. He came as God in the flesh and walked upon the earth. He lived a sinless life and died to take the sins of mankind. He rose again three days later to prove that He has the power over death.

        The gospel message simply rests in putting your faith and trust in this Jesus Christ and allowing Him to be the Lord of your life.
        He died for what? To take the sins of mankind? Upon Himself?

        What is the good news? That He died for us when? When we were yet sinners?

        And what can we do to save ourselves? Nothing? We are saved by what? The blood
        of Christ, and not by our own works?

        Gee, that's a Universalist message if I ever heard one...
        1 John 4:7-8 "Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love."

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Balder
          Didn't you try to refute my comments about bodhisattvas ministering to people in hell by saying that that breach can never be crossed? Because here you are saying it is possible after all.
          He's also ignoring 1 Peter 2:18

          For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[d] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
          1 John 4:7-8 "Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love."

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Balder
            Didn't you try to refute my comments about bodhisattvas ministering to people in hell by saying that that breach can never be crossed? Because here you are saying it is possible after all.
            Yes, it was; but for one thing bodhisattvas don't exist, and for another, that breach cannot be crossed; but with God all things are possible. He isn't subject to any restrictions, except those of His Own Character.
            "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

            If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Aimiel
              Yes, it was; but for one thing bodhisattvas don't exist, and for another, that breach cannot be crossed; but with God all things are possible. He isn't subject to any restrictions, except those of His Own Character.
              and the doctrines that say that God can only restore a small percentage of his own creation......
              "Either these curtains go or I do...."

              - Oscar Wilde on deathbed

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              • Originally posted by red77
                ...and the doctrines that say that God can only restore a small percentage of his own creation.
                He is The One Who said that, I simply believe it. He said that He will judge sin. He said that He will cast into The Lake of Fire those who aren't written in His Book of Life to suffer eternal torment. Universalists are the ones who say that He is a liar. They believe that the second death doesn't exist. That is heresy: making The Kingdom of God of none effect.
                "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

                If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Aimiel
                  He is The One Who said that, I simply believe it. He said that He will judge sin. He said that He will cast into The Lake of Fire those who aren't written in His Book of Life to suffer eternal torment. Universalists are the ones who say that He is a liar. They believe that the second death doesn't exist. That is heresy: making The Kingdom of God of none effect.
                  Is there anything in the Bible that you read symbolically? Now if God works out everything to the purpose of his will, then is it possible for him to restore his entire world within the fullness of time? Now - if you say no - then you limit God by your interpreation of these passages, God says he wills all men to come to a knowledge of the truth, that he came to save the world, if God has a plan that will come to fruition then any doctrine that says otherwise or limits his power or love is at the very least questionable, you tell us that God wont be able to save his own world, that his love is limited by his wrath, that all things in fact are NOT possible for God, I'm not gonna do that.......
                  "Either these curtains go or I do...."

                  - Oscar Wilde on deathbed

                  Comment


                  • It isn't limiting God to believe what He says Himself. It is limiting Him to put your own 'spin' on His Word by taking what men say about Him out-of-context and putting their words before His. This is what happens when you seek knowledge above Him. You make the god of your imagination and then you bow down to it.
                    "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

                    If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Aimiel
                      It isn't limiting God to believe what He says Himself. It is limiting Him to put your own 'spin' on His Word by taking what men say about Him out-of-context and putting their words before His. This is what happens when you seek knowledge above Him. You make the god of your imagination and then you bow down to it.
                      I'm sure the Pharisees felt the same way.

                      That is why we are having this debate. We have been looking at what God actually said compared to what people believe.

                      Did God really talk about literal flames? In the case of what the rich man was in, was this an eternal condition with no hope whatsoever? The rich man was really the High Priest of Israel when Jesus said this parable...Lazarus was a leper in the parable...full of sores and dogs licking his wounds, but in Hades and the Bosom of Abraham...apparently there was escape through resurrection from death. That is a very promenent theme in this parable. Hades is the Greek equivilent of the Hebrew Sheol in the Old Testament...which is the grave or state of death. This was a classic reversal of fortunes parable....and nothing is even said about "eternity" in the narrative.

                      People who think eternal torment is God's intention jump to conclusions based on their belief that this parable is discribing what they believe to be true. On top of that, they make it ananthema to think that eternal torment might not be true, and launch into how wrong people who question it are. There is an emotional attachment to eternal torment as well, for some strange reason. It has people that believe in eternal torment acting as though they are in a cult where it's not allowed to think in the ways a Christian universalist does.

                      So...what we have is two belief systems using the same Word of God and drawing very different conclusions about what it says. And I think what it says is very different than what the believers in eternal torment think it says. The believers in eternal torment think that Hell not being eternal is bad news. I don't. People that belive in eternal torment think Jesus being the savior of all men is bad news. I don't. People that believe in eternal torment want to refute everything a Christian universalist has to say. I don't.

                      there is no mention in the Hebrew or the Greek of the Bible of eternal torment. There is aionion chastisement. And there is the lake of fire which is defined as the "second death" for the ages of the ages....and that some will be touchstoned in the presence of the holy angels and the lamb until the age of the ages.(Rev 14:10; 20:10) The lake is comprised of fire which refines for purity and destroys impurities...AND brimstone which cleanses and has healing properties and wards off disease.

                      The only way to get eternal torment in there is to change the meaning of the Greek words the Holy Spirit used and what the Biblical symbolism employed meant at the time it was written. And it does this in a way that limits God in His ability to save mankind.

                      I'm not comfortable doing that any more.

                      Comment


                      • If there is not an unending punishment, from what did Jesus need to redeem us?
                        Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

                        But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

                        What are my fruits today?

                        Cityboy With Horses A blog about what happens when you say, "I Promise"

                        "Moral standards" are a lot like lighthouses: they exist to help us stay on course as we sail through life. But we have to steer BY them, but not directly AT them. Lest we end up marooned on the shoals of perpetual self-righteousness.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by CabinetMaker
                          If there is not an unending punishment, from what did Jesus need to redeem us?
                          Sin

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by logos_x
                            Sin
                            Stephen can you please read post #1689. Thank you.


                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Aimiel
                              It isn't limiting God to believe what He says Himself. It is limiting Him to put your own 'spin' on His Word by taking what men say about Him out-of-context and putting their words before His. This is what happens when you seek knowledge above Him. You make the god of your imagination and then you bow down to it.
                              well God says he's worked all things out within the counsel of his own will - right? He wills all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth, he wills that none should perish, he will put all things in the universe in subjection to him, the problem you seem to have is an inability to recognise symbolical language, I asume you believe the LOF to be a literal fire - as you obviously seem to think hell is because of how you see the parable of the rich man and Lazarus - and you use your own supposition to explain how a man on fire can speak despite there being no words that say God gave 'temporary respite' from the fire....
                              Do you read all of Revelation literally? If not why not? Whats literal and whats symbolic? How come Knight and pastor Kevin interpret the LOF differently? Why is there any differing attitudes and interpretations on this at all - if its supposedly so clear to those who believe in ET?

                              You limit the power and the will of God to say he cannot restore his OWN creation, you cannot get away from that simple fact, your doctrine simply prevents you from allowing God to be bigger than it.....
                              "Either these curtains go or I do...."

                              - Oscar Wilde on deathbed

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by PastorKevin
                                Stephen can you please read post #1689. Thank you.
                                It won't happen again.

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