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  • #76
    Originally posted by Mustard Seed

    "Was it dishonest for God to command Abraham to deceive?"
    That's worded rather awkwardly, since dishonest and deceptive are synonyms. It's also a pretty narrow scope.

    How about,
    "Is it always wrong to lie?"
    or
    "Is it ever right to lie?"
    BRXI: Should Christians support the Death Penalty?

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Zakath

      If you're going to do tag team, how about a steel cage match?

      They "combatants" cannot log off TOL until the match is over...
      LOL.
      Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
      TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Turbo

        That's worded rather awkwardly, since dishonest and deceptive are synonyms. It's also a pretty narrow scope.

        How about,
        "Is it always wrong to lie?"
        or
        "Is it ever right to lie?"
        Perhaps we could expand the scope even further:

        When is it (or is it ever) proper to disobey the letter of the law in order to affirm the spirit of the law?

        "Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit." Romans 15.13

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Chileice

          Perhaps we could expand the scope even further:

          When is it (or is it ever) proper to disobey the letter of the law in order to affirm the spirit of the law?
          There is no such thing as "the spirit of the law." Or at least, it is not a Biblical concept.
          BRXI: Should Christians support the Death Penalty?

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Turbo

            There is no such thing as "the spirit of the law." Or at least, it is not a Biblical concept.
            Perhaps he was looking for a concept to contrast with the idea of "letter of the law". Something hinted at in Rom. 7:6, perhaps.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Zakath

              Perhaps he was looking for a concept to contrast with the idea of "letter of the law". Something hinted at in Rom. 7:6, perhaps.
              The letter is the Law, while the Spirit is the Holy Spirit. Note that every translation that capitalizes words that stand for God capitalizes "Spirit" in that verse.
              • But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. Romans 7:6
              BRXI: Should Christians support the Death Penalty?

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Turbo

                The letter is the Law, while the Spirit is the Holy Spirit. Note that every translation that capitalizes words that stand for God capitalizes "Spirit" in that verse.
                • But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. Romans 7:6
                Technically, you are right. I was not making a "Biblical" statement but using a colloquialism that we have come to accept. I was thinking more in the terms of Matthew 12:

                Lord of the Sabbath

                1At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."
                3He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread--which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? 6I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. 7If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
                9Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?�
                11He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."
                13Then he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. 14But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.

                In other words, are there times where to live the "law" of Jesus' love we will have to set aside other "laws" in order to do it? Some people seem to think not as in the original suggestion, "Would God want you to lie?" Would it ever be right to steal even though one of the Ten Commandments id "Do not steal"? How bound to the letter of the law are we? Or can we pretty much make up our own set of laws if it seems the moral thing to do at the time. I think we would get some pretty good discussion going and there are probably good Christians who would be on either end and some in between.

                Not just Christians but the whole idea of a moral/ethical value set. Can we violate our principles for the greater good?

                "Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit." Romans 15.13

                Comment


                • #83
                  Or the question. Is it wrong to disobey God when his current commands go against previous ones?


                  Thy mind, O Man, if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation must stretch as high as the utmost heaven, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss. Thou must commune with God.

                  --Joseph Smith Jr.

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                  • #84
                    May I suggest a foundational debate about one of the big "somethings" that divide Christianity. You're more likely to get a good readership with a more controversial topic...
                    • Trinity vs. Unity

                      Nature of "The Lord's Supper" - remembrance or reenactment?

                      Infant baptism and covenant theology

                      Role of the clergy - priesthood or preachers?

                      Is "sola scriptura" scriptural?

                      Is there a "right" Christian Bible?


                    Fun stuff like those.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Zakath quote - Nature of "The Lord's Supper" - remembrance or reenactment?




                      There is another option held. That is one of the spiritual presence of Christ.





                      Zakath quote - Is "sola scriptura" scriptural?





                      The way "sola scriptura" was originally used was not the way fundamentalists use it today. You might want to be more specific and talk about ONE standard or MANY standards.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        I vote A. But, I would really love to debate someone on something. Of course, it would have to be somehting that I know enough about. I could debate Turbo on DC vs Marvel.
                        sigpic

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Turbo

                          There is no such thing as "the spirit of the law." Or at least, it is not a Biblical concept.

                          I do not know if you can call it the "spirit of the law" but Jesus did say that all the Law boiled down to "Love God." and "Love your neighbor."

                          When the Pharisees demanded he obey Sabbath law, he ignored them and healed the paraplegic man, thereby obeying the higher law embodied in the two greatest commandments.

                          The problem with "letter of the law" is that no one (even God) has ever written a law that was lawyer-proof.

                          Titan
                          In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Turbo

                            The letter is the Law, while the Spirit is the Holy Spirit. Note that every translation that capitalizes words that stand for God capitalizes "Spirit" in that verse.
                            • But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. Romans 7:6
                            Sorry, I missed this one. It seems that you are not arguing for the letter of the law, but for living by the Spirit without law at all.



                            In order to make this post on topic and atone for my previous one,

                            How about a theodicy Battle Royale?

                            Is there anything that would be wrong for God to do, or would God by doing it make it moral?

                            This is a question I have seen touched upon in other threads. It seems to fracture upon the usual Calvinist/Arminian/OV lines.

                            Titan
                            In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Well, what's the latest?

                              Are we any closer to a Battle Royale?
                              sigpic
                              "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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                              • #90
                                There's a few people around here I would like to see do a Battle Royale--

                                :

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