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  • On the day of Pentecost Peter said that the Lord Jesus Christ was raised up and that He would sit on David´s throne(Acts 2:29,30).And this is indeed according to Scripture,which states:

    "The Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of His father,David"(Lk.1:32).

    "The Lord hath sworn in truth unto David;He will not turn from it: Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne"(Ps.132:11).

    And we also know that the "throne" of David is a throne that exists on the earth.Solomon,David´s son,ruled from this same throne:

    "Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David,his father,and his kingdom was established greatly"(1Ki.2:12).

    It is a fact that the Lord Jesus Christ has not yet sat in David´s throne,so that event remains in the future.And since Dee Dee´s views and beliefs have no place for the Lord Jesus ruling from a throne on earth she just denies that it will happen.

    Let us see if Dee Dee will address these Scriptual verses that blow her little cherished MYTHS out of the water.

    In His grace,--Jerry

    Comment


    • I am ready, willing, and able to debate you further Jerry once you acknowledge some very reasonable ground rules and add any of your own that you would like. Why are you so scared of the ground rules??

      Comment


      • A few days ago, in defending his idea that the Church is not the Bride, Jerry said,

        As far as 2Cor.11:2 is concerned,it is noteworthy that Paul did not use the word "bride" but the ordinary word for an unmarried girl.According to Alfred Edersheim this verse illustrates the positon of a groomsman (or 'friend of the bridegroom') at a Jewish marriage.Besides their other functions,they were "the guarantors of the bride´s virgin chasitity"("Jewish Social Life",p.153).So here Paul is using that figure to express his "jealously" for the Corinthian Christians.
        Again Jerry is pulling his selective quotation bit just like he did with Thayer and with Alford. What Jerry said is technically correct. Yep, Edersheim did in fact say all of that....but he said all of that in prelude to his discussion that the Corinthian Church was in fact the Bride of Christ!! It is not being up front with the facts not to tell us that Jerry, just like it is not up front with the facts not to tell us that Thayer and Alford disagreed with you on Matthew 24:34.

        Everyone can judge for themselves.. here is the complete quote of Edersheim:


        It deserves notice, that at the marriage in Cana there is no mention of "the friends of the bridegroom," or, as we would call them, the groomsmen. This was in strict accordance with Jewish custom, for groomsmen were customary in Judaea, but not in Galilee (Cheth. 25 a). This also casts light upon the locality where John 3:29 was spoken, in which "the friend of the bridegroom" is mentioned. But this expression is quite different from that of "children of the bridechamber," which occurs in Matthew 9:15, where the scene is once more laid in Galilee. The term "children of the bridechamber" is simply a translation of the Rabbinical "bene Chuppah," and means the guests invited to the bridal. In Judaea there were at every marriage two groomsmen or "friends of the bridegroom"--one for the bridegroom, the other for his bride. Before marriage, they acted as a kind of intermediaries between the couple; at the wedding they offered gifts, waited upon the bride and bridegroom, and attended them to the bridal chamber, being also, as it were, the guarantors of the bride's virgin chastity. Hence, when St. Paul tells the Corinthians (2 Cor 11:2): "I am jealous over you with godly jealousy; for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ," he speaks, as it were, in the character of groomsman or "bridegroom's friend," who had acted as such at the spiritual union of Christ with the Corinthian Church. And we know that it was specially the duty of the "friend of the bridegroom" so to present to him his bride. Similarly it was his also, after marriage, to maintain proper terms between the couple, and more particularly to defend the good fame of the bride against all imputations. It may interest some to know that his custom also was traced up to highest authority. Thus, in the spiritual union of Israel with their God, Moses is spoken of as "the friend of the bridegroom" who leads out the bride (Exo 19:17); while Jehovah, as the bridegroom, meets His Church at Sinai (Psa 68:7; Pirke di R. El. 41). Nay, in some mystic writings God is described as acting "the friend of the bridegroom," when our first parents met in Eden. There is a touch of poetry in the application of Ezekiel 28:13 to that scene, when angels led the choir, and decked and watched the bridal-bed (Ab. de R. Nathan iv. and xii.). According to another ancient Rabbinical commentary (Ber. R. viii), God Almighty Himself took the cup of blessing and spoke the benediction, while Michael and Gabriel acted the "bridegroom's friends" to our first parents when they wedded in Paradise.

        Comment


        • Why do you think that Dee Dee is so special that she deserves her own set of rules?

          Comment


          • Because Jerry dodges questions. I invite anyone to go over and read the proposed ground rules and see if they are unreasonable or beg the question that I am "special." No, it is because Jerry is so special that these ground rules are needed. If Jerry really wanted to debate, he would have no problem with them, and again, he can add some of his own. But he does not really want to debate, he wants to play dodge-a-rama, and I had ten rounds of that which is quite enough.

            Comment


            • Dee Dee wants to change the subject.Now she wants to accuse me of being dishonest by not revealing all of what Alfred Edersheim had to say about the relationship between the Church and the Lord Jesus.

              First of all,Edersheim never said that the church is the bride of Christ,as Dee Dee mantains.Just read the words that Dee Dee posted.Never once does he say that the Church is the Bride.

              Second of all,I am under the impression that Edersheim is only saying that the languge is used in a figurative sense..As anyone can see from the quote Dee Dee provided,Edersheim says that "in the spiritual union of Israel with their God,Moses is spoken of as 'the friend of the bridegroom' who leads out the bride (Ex.XIX.17)."

              Is the "spiritual union" that is spoken of here a real marriage?Is Dee Dee willing to argue that the "Israel" of Exodus19:17 is really the Bride of God?If not,she will have to argue that the "spiritual union" that Edersheim is here speaking of is somehow different than the "spiritual union"that he speaks of in regard to Christ and the Corinthian Church.

              In my HONEST opinion Edersheim is not saying that Israel is technically the Bride of God,but is pointing out that sometimes in Scripture things concerning the Jewish marriage are used FIGURATIVELY.Therefore,if the term "spiritual union" in regard to Israel is not to be taken LITERALLY,then I did not believe that he meant it literally in regard to the church at Cornith.

              But because I do not share Dee Dee´s opinion as to what Edershein is saying,I am accused of being dishonest and purposefully witholding something in order to deceive.

              When you can´t answer the message,attack the messenger.

              Finally Dee Dee has decided to come out of hibernation.But instead of defending her ideas concerning the location of the THRONE from which the Lord will rule,she decides to assassinate my character instead.

              All the while all we can see is the girl running as fast as she can to avoid discussing the verses that devestate her case.

              In His grace,--Jerry

              Comment


              • Jerry you are truly a man without honor. You mock, you put down and even when someone admits you are right about something you belittle them. The words I am thinking about you can not be repeated.

                Pride comes before the fall.

                Dee Dee you can have him, he's all yours! I sin too much.

                Comment


                • Just read the words that Dee Dee posted.Never once does he say that the Church is the Bride.
                  Yes, please do read what Edersheim said, it is painfully obvious that he is saying that the Corinthians passage is teaching that Paul believed the Corinthian church to be the bride of Christ otherwise the symbolism is meaningless.

                  Jerry can blather all he wants about that. Each can read what Edersheim said and come to their own conclusion. Anyone who wanted to DENY that the passage was teaching such a thing would have done so explicitly.

                  As anyone can see from the quote Dee Dee provided,Edersheim says that "in the spiritual union of Israel with their God,Moses is spoken of as 'the friend of the bridegroom' who leads out the bride (Ex.XIX.17)."

                  Is the "spiritual union" that is spoken of here a real marriage?Is Dee Dee willing to argue that the "Israel" of Exodus19:17 is really the Bride of God?If not,she will have to argue that the "spiritual union" that Edersheim is here speaking of is somehow different than the "spiritual union"that he speaks of in regard to Christ and the Corinthian Church.
                  Nice dodge Jerry but the question is not what I believe but what Edersheim believed and it is apparent that he felt the spiritual union was the same and that the Corinthian Church was the bride of Christ. I am not surprised that you are not dealing with what he actually said in that quote because you have already denied what the Apostle Paul actually said in several passages that Rev already pointed out.

                  And once you agree to some reasonable ground rules, I will be glad to debate you further.

                  Dee Dee you can have him, he's all yours! I sin too much.
                  Gee... thanks.. I think But I don't think in a million years he will agree to the ground rules, so I don't have him either.

                  Comment


                  • Again she dodges the issue I raised.

                    Edersheim uses the same exact language in regard to Israel,but I do not believe that he teaches that Israel and the Lord were really "married".I concluded that the langue he used was used in a "figurative" sense.

                    And since he used the very exact term in both instances,I REASONABLY CONCLUDED he was using the language in a FIGURATIVE SENSE in both instances.

                    Therefore,I was not doing anything dishonest.

                    But I am having to defend myself,and by doing that we are not discussing the Scriptures that refute her ideas.And that is just what Dee Dee wants.So to play her little game she has no scruples.If she has to brand me as being dishonest in order to divert attention,that is just fine and dandy.

                    In His grace,--Jerry

                    Comment


                    • Jerry is my name, obfuscation is my game.

                      Of course Jerry, the Bride of Christ is figurative... not to be crude but no one believes that we are literally Christ's Bride, but both Edersheim and Paul makes it clear that the Church is the "Bride" in the spiritual sense. The context of that Pauline passage makes it so clear it is painful. That is why the symbolism works. Are you claiming that Israel is literally going to be the Bride of Christ in the future?? If not, then all your smoke screen is nonsense. The "marriage" IS a spiritual union (just like Edersheim claims) unless you are crassly claiming that the alleged future union solely with Israel is somehow physical?? You are imploding upon your own views once again.

                      And notice something else very interesting that Edersheim says, "while Jehovah, as the bridegroom, meets His Church at Sinai." Meets His what??? His Church??? Oops. Can't have that now can we?? How much clearer can Edersheim make it? The Church is the Bride of Christ.

                      Maybe you will learn your lesson in the future. I will go back and check every single source you quote. I have done it three times now and found things were not exactly as you would have us believe.

                      Comment


                      • Earlier I provided the following verse to demonstrate that the Lord Jesus Christ will someday rule the Kingdom from an earthly throne:

                        "And it shall be that whosoever will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the KING,the Lord of Hosts,even upon them shall be no rain"(Zech.14:17).

                        This is Dee Dee´s respnse to that verse:

                        "In Jeremiah 3:17 (and Zechariah 14:17),the text does not say that Christ´s throne will be in Jerusalem."

                        Well,now we do know that the Lord´s throne will be the throne of David,and that throne will indeed be in Jerusalem.So we can believe that the following verse describes the reign of the Lord Jesus as He rules from Jerusalem:

                        "And the Lord shall be King over all the earth;in that day there shall be one Lord,and His name one...And it shall come to pass that every one who that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King,the Lord of Hosts,and to keep the feast of the tabernacle"(Zech.14:9,16).

                        Dee Dee would have us imagine that the Lord would be reigning as King over the whole earth from year to year,but He would not have a Throne on which to sit.

                        But now we know that He will indeed rule from the throne of David on earth,proving once again that Dee Dee´s ideas are in error.

                        In His grace,--Jerry

                        Comment


                        • LOLOL!!! I am ready, willing, and more than able to debate you further once you agree to some reasonable ground rules.

                          Comment


                          • And Revelation717 keeps ignoring what I say and calling me a liar.He continues to say that I teach that ethnic Israel will be saved while they remain in unbelief,even though I have repeatedly provided Scripture to demonstrate that they will repent and accept the Lord Jesus Christ.
                            Yet Jerry keeps ignoring the fact he contradicts himself before he can even open his lying mouth.

                            Look:


                            "And what NATION in the earth is like Thy people,even like Israel,whom God went to redeem for a people to Himself,and to make Him a name,and to do for you great things and awe-inspiring,for thy land,before Thy people,which Thou redeemedst from Egypt,from the nations and their gods?For Thou hast confirmed to Thyself Thy people,Israel,to be a people unto Thee FOREVER;and Thou,Lord,art become their God"(2Sam.7:23,24).

                            Now we can see that God declares Israel to be a people to Himself.

                            Can't argue with that.

                            These same people are said to be a people unto God forever, they are His people.

                            Can't argue with that.


                            But you see, the whole thing I can argue with is the point and assertion Jerry is making saying that this applies to ETHNIC Israel.

                            Even Jerry cannot stick to his own assertions.

                            Revelation717 just ignores the answer I have previously given that states that in the future that ethnic Israel will indeed repent and become His people again.
                            In order to become something again, one has to STOP become that something right?

                            In order for me to become a salesman again must therefore IMPLY I stopped being a salesman at some point.

                            What Jerry says here is that they (ETHNIC) Israel will repent and become God's people again.

                            Well, Jerry I thought your verse said they where God's people forever, so how can they AGAIN become something that they already ARE??????

                            To be or not to be that is the question.

                            And if ETHNIC Jews are God's people then who are the believing Jews and Gentiles?

                            Moreover, how will the ETHNIC Jew (God's chosen) be saved without faith in Jesus Christ?

                            Is Jerry implying that God's chosen ETHNIC people will die in their sins, being a people God swore to Himself forever?

                            That seems like a disasterous fate for God's people and I don't quite think the Scriptures concur with this vain philosophy.

                            So Jerry needs to explain a couple points here IF he is to maintain that I am wrong and he is right:

                            Either:

                            Ethnic Jews will be saved without faith, solely based upon their flesh regardless of unbelief/belief in order for 2 Sam 7:24 to be correct in Jerry's interpretation.

                            (there have been many ETHNIC Jews that have died and did not have faith in Jesus, many of whom saw Him on earth and denied Him)~ If they died in unbelief were they saved based on the fact the were Jewish? If not, then show us were God's people are sent to hell, seems an unfitting fate for anyone God has chosen unto Himself forever, doesn't it?

                            Jerry needs to explain how these are God's people. Even the people Jesus said were not of God but children of the devil remained God's people even AFTER God Himself told them they were not OF HIM.

                            OR

                            Jerry needs to accept the fact that ethnic Israel has been cut off and spiritual Israel is the only Israel that has ever mattered to God, whether or not they are Jew or Gentile.

                            Jerry himself says ethnic Israel will repent and become God's people AGAIN, but cannot see that when they do this they will undoubtedly become part of what has always been God's people, the children of faith.


                            So Jerry explain to us how the Jews of John 8 were God's people.

                            Explain to us what the Jew becomes when he repents and accepts Jesus as Lord and Saviour?
                            Oh man, would ya look at this...we got alot of work to do!

                            Comment


                            • Jerry Shugart:

                              Revelation717 just ignores the answer I have previously given that states that in the future that ethnic Israel will indeed repent and become His people again.
                              HA! After arguing over and over that ethnic Israel is and has always been God's people, Shugart CONTRADICTS HIMSELF and shows he doesn't believe that they are God's people now!! How could he say that they WILL BECOME God's people again without admitting that they ARE NOT GOD'S PEOPLE NOW?!? If they aren't now God's chosen people, then how could they have been so without faith in the verse in Samuel that he continually used to try to make us think they were, are, and always will be?

                              Rom 9:6-8 isn't talking about two FLESHLY Israels: one with faith and one without faith. It's clearly talking about the CHURCH vs. FLESHLY ISRAEL, calling the CHURCH "Israel", since Christ is NOT DIVIDED. ONLY if Christ was divided into "Jewish Christians" and "Gentile Christians" could Jerry's doctrine be true, but we know from scripture that there IS no Jew-Gentile division! We are all ONE in Christ Jesus; we are ALL the children of Abraham BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST, not by our flesh! Flesh hasn't got ONE THING to do with faith, and God is NO RESPECTOR OF PERSONS, though Jerry and the disps all insist He is! The gentiles of faith will receive the same promises without respect of persons, but the disps deny that truth, saying that the Jews will reign on earth, and NOT the gentiles. Their whole thing is centered more around the Jews and the FLESH than it is around Christ and Faith. Their gospel is ANOTHER GOSPEL, one which Paul condemned, and warned the Galatians to let it be accursed. It causes those who accept it to FALL FROM GRACE because it causes faith in Christ to become of no effect.

                              Hey, if being Jewish is to have the promise of salvation, then what did Christ need to die for in the first place? Why do the Jews need Christ if Jerry's doctrine is true? THEY WOULDN'T! They're ABRAHAM'S SEED according to Jerry, even WITHOUT FAITH IN JESUS, and will inherit the promises to Abraham REGARDLESS of unbelief! He imagines that they somehow are God's chosen and please God outside of faith, but Jesus asked such Jewish unbelievers, "How can ye escape the damnation of hell?" before they said "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord (Jesus Christ)". The answer is that they WON'T escape the damnation of hell outside of faith in Jesus Christ ANY MORE THAN ANY OTHER UNBELIEVING HEATHEN. They are heathen in their hearts before they come to faith; their flesh is of no benefit to them at all. As a mof, having been given the OT, where Christ is found all through the prophecies, they are more responsible than some backwoods Hindu could EVER be!! They will be held responsible for the light of prophecy that they rejected!

                              For that matter, so will the disps. Like the unbelieving Jews, they TOO reject the prophecies concerning Christ, claiming that they are not yet fulfilled. They DENY Daniel 9 is fulfilled, and insert an ANTICHRIST IN CHRIST'S PLACE!!! If the unbelieving Jews blasphemed God by crucifying Christ as a false prophet, what do the disps do, who claim that Daniel's 70 weeks were never fulfilled within that specific time period? They make Daniel, Gabriel, and God's Word into a lie, and WORSHIP THE CREATURE (the fleshly Jews) more than the Creator, just as Romans 1 says the unsaved do. They WORSHIP Hagar and Ishmael, and despise Christ and His Church, and blaspheme the Word of God by making the prophecies of none effect. They worship God in vain (Matt 15:6-9)



                              Revelation 22
                              14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

                              15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

                              Comment


                              • For Thou hast confirmed to Thyself Thy people,Israel,to be a people unto Thee FOREVER;and Thou,Lord,art become their God"(2Sam.7:24).
                                Even if this verse ever DID refer to unbelieving fleshly Jews (which it most certainly did not; unbelievers were always cut off from among His people by God all during the time of the OT, even as they are now), one can't deny the scriptural definition of the word "forever" without twisting the effect of God's Word.

                                Exd 19:9
                                And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.
                                If "for ever" in Ex 19:9 meant a DEFINATE continuous action, regardless of the unbelief that any of them might have fallen into, then the Jews wouldn't have rebelled against Moses in the wilderness. But we know that even though the Jews heard God speak to Moses, they didn't continue to believe in him. They hardened their heart in unbelief, and did not want to hear what the Spirit said. God desired that they believe Moses "for ever", but they did not.

                                Exd 21:6
                                Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
                                Are those servants still serving those who bored their ears? Of course not. "For ever" here was obviously not intended to mean beyond the limitation of their lifetime.
                                Exd 29:28
                                And it shall be Aaron's and his sons' by a statute for ever from the children of Israel: for it [is] an heave offering: and it shall be an heave offering from the children of Israel of the sacrifice of their peace offerings, [even] their heave offering unto the LORD.
                                Is the heave offering being performed today? Should it be? No, the New Testament says that animal sacrifices are done away never to be re-instated. God isn't about to build again that which He destroyed. Animal sacrifices are OBSOLETE by the blood of Christ. Those who insist that God will again accept the blood of goats and bulls BLASPHEME the blood of Christ.

                                God's promise that He would be the God of His people was always conditional. We see in 2Cor 6 the stipulation: one must 'COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM (UNBELIEVERS) AND BE SEPERATE" before God will be one's God, and they His people. It has ALWAYS been that way. Light has no fellowship with darkness, nor the children of God with the children of satan. As the children of the flesh persecuted the children of the Spirit back then, even so it is now. Paul said so in Galatians 4.



                                Revelation 22
                                14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

                                15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

                                Comment

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