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  • We can see just how far that some will go to attempt to make the word of God viod.We can clearly see that the "Israel" of 2Sam.7:24 is in reference to ethnic Israel because the verse that precedes this verses identifies "Israel" as the NATION that was redeemed out of Egypt.

    And that nation was ethnic Israel.

    Instead of accepting the plain word of God because IT IS WRITTEN,Revelation717 attempts to prove that it does not refer to ethnic Israel.And why would he do that.Because if it does refer to ethnic Israel,he knows that his beliefs are wrong!

    And instead of accepting the fact,he attempts to persuade anyone who is foolish enough to believe him that it does not refer to ethnic Israel.

    However,he never says who he believes "Israel" is in this verse.

    He points to another verse in his febble attempt to make the words of God of no effect,citing Ro.9:6.Is he saying that this means that the Body of Christ is the "Israel" of 2Sam.7:24?

    Does he really believe that the Body of Christ was redeemed out of Egypt?

    If that is what he believes,then why doesn´t he say so?

    He also points out that ethnic Israel proved unfaithful,and then reasons that God had permanently cast away ethnic Israel.But why can´t he believe the words of Paul that "God hath not cast away His people whom He foreknew"(Ro.11:2).

    And that is not the only verse that states the same fact.We can also see the same truth in regard to the seed of David:

    "I have made a covenant with My chosen,I have sworn unto David,My servant:Thy seed will I establish forever,and build up thy throne to all generations...

    "If his seed forsake My law,and walk not in Mine ordinances;if they break My statutes,and keep not My commandments;

    "Then I will visit their transgressions with the rod,and their iniquity with stripes;

    "Nevertheless,My loving-kindness will I not utterly take away from him,nor allow My faithfulness to fail.

    "My covenant will I not break,nor will I alter the things that have gone out of My lips.

    "Once I have sworn by My holiness that I will not lie unto David.

    "His seed shall endure forever,and his throne as the sun before Me"(Ps.89:3-4;30-36).

    NOR WILL I ALTER THE THINGS THAT HAVE GONE OUT OF MY LIPS!

    And His words remain:

    "For Thou hast confirmed to Thyself Thy people,Israel,to be a people unto Thee FOREVER;and Thou,Lord,art become their God"(2Sam.7:24).

    So perhaps Revelation717 will be so kind to tell us exactly who is the "Israel" in this verse if it is not ethnic Israel,the same nation that the Lord redeemed out of Egypt.

    In His grace,--Jerry

    Comment


    • And yet more crickets about my invitation/challenge to Jerry to further debate.

      Comment


      • Next I will examine the false teaching that Dee Dee promotes when she attempts to prove that the Lord Jesus will not rule from a throne on earth.She knows that if the Scriptures teach that the Lord will rule from a throne on earth,that all her ideas are in error.

        Here we read that the throne of David will last forever:

        "I have made a covenant with My chosen,I have sworn unto David,My servant:Thy seed will I establish forever,and build up his throne to all generations"(Ps.89:3,4).

        Yes,indeed,the Davidic Covenant leaves no doubt that David´s throne "shall be established forever"(2Sam.7:16).

        And that throne is an earthly throne.There can be no doubt about this at all.Solomon himself sat upon that throne when he was the king of Israel.And Peter says that the Lord Jesus Christ will also rule from that same throne:

        "Men and brethren,let me freely speek unto you of the patriarch,DAVID,that he is both dead and buried,and his sepulcher is with us unto this day.

        "Therefore,being a prophet,and knowning that God had sworn an oath to him,that of the fruit of his loins,according to the flesh,He would raise up Christ to sit on his(David´s) throne"(Acts2:29,30).

        So the Lord will indeed sit upon David´s throne,and the false theology of Dee Dee comes tumbling down like a child´s house of cards.

        "The Lord hath sworn in truth unto David;He will not turn from it: Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne"(Ps.132:11).

        In His grace,--Jerry

        Comment


        • Wow those crickets are getting louder. Are they using a megaphone?? Man give Jerry a few ground rules and he turns white as a ghost. Boo!

          Comment


          • Jerry just can't see it.

            However,he never says who he believes "Israel" is in this verse.
            I thought it was rather clear, even to a Mexican. Claro que si.
            Israel is and always will be the seed of Abraham, the children of God, those who have faith in God.

            But as Romans 9:6 explains and makes it quite clear.

            For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel

            Jerry would not even DARE attempt to explain this, nor ANY of the points I made WHICH ARE QUITE VALID! Yet the wind blows the crickets howl and the silence is almost deafening!

            Jerry, point blank is this an example of God's chosen?


            Joh:8:39: They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
            Joh:8:40: But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
            Joh:8:41: Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
            Joh:8:42: Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
            Joh:8:43: Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
            Joh:8:44: Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


            Are these God's children? They are ETHNIC Jews? Tell us Jerry, how does 2 Sam 7:24 apply to these ETHNIC Jews?

            Now let's see your verse and claim work against this?

            Jesus Himself said they were not of God but of the devil. You say all ETHNIC Jews are God's people, Jesus disagrees with you Jerry, not just I but Jesus' own words tell you that you do lie.

            So perhaps Revelation717 will be so kind to tell us exactly who is the "Israel" in this verse if it is not ethnic Israel,the same nation that the Lord redeemed out of Egypt.
            So perhaps Jerry will be so kind to tell us exactly how these children of the devil, although ETHNIC Jews are of the same Israel that God said would be His people forever?

            Jesus said, "IF God were your Father, ye would love me."

            ETHNIC Jews don't LOVE JESUS. Can God still be their Father?

            Can one be of God and not have faith in Jesus?

            Perhaps Jerry will quite dodging and answer these for us all.
            Last edited by Revelation717; September 21st, 2002, 10:47 AM.
            Oh man, would ya look at this...we got alot of work to do!

            Comment


            • Here are his clear words:

              "Israel is and always will be the seed of Abraham,the children of God,those who have faith in God."

              Evidently he is unaware that the tern Israel is also used to describe ethnic Israel,as we see at Romans 9:3,4:

              "...my kinsmen according to the flesh,who are Israelites;to whom pertaineth the adoption,and the glory,and the covenants,and the giving of the law,and the service of God,AND THE PROMISES..."

              So the term "Israel" is used in regard to ethnic Israel.And it was ethnic Israel who was redeemed out of Israel,and it was ethnic Israel who received the following promise:

              "For Thou hast confirmed to Thyself Thy people,ISRAEL,to be a people unto Thee FOREVER;and Thou Lord,hath become their God"(2Sam.7:24).

              And Scripture also declares that there are two types of Israelites "according to the flesh":

              "For they are not all Israel,who are of Israel"(Ro.9:6).

              Here Paul is making a distinction between Israel after the flesh,who are merely the natural posterity of Jacob,and the Israelites who are also the natural posterity of Jacob but these Israelites are believers.

              And we can see that at this time that there are those who are the natural posterity of Abraham who do not believe and there is also a remnant of ethnic Israel who do believe.And it was the same in Paul´s day:

              "Israel has not obtained that which he seeket for;but the election hath obtained it,and the rest were blinded"(Ro.11:7).

              So even though some ethnic Jews did not believe,they were still regarded as Israelites.

              And for those attempting to say that the church of the present dispensation is the seed or children of Israel,let me repeat what I said in an earlier post.We are sons of Abraham,and Israel was the grandson of Abraham.Therefore,we cannot possibly be the seed or children of Israel.

              So the word "Israel" can indeed be used of ethnic Israel.And it is a fact that ethnic Israel was redeemed out of Egypt.Therefore,that is the meaning of Israel in the following verse:

              "For Thou hast confirmed to Thyself Thy people,Israel,to be a people unto Thee forever;and Thou,Lord,art become their God"(2Sam.7:24).

              But there are those who just cannot believe it.They say that God would not have ethnic Israel to be their people because they did not believe.However,Scriptures states that at some point in the future all of ethnic Israel will believe (Zech.13:8,9).And it is that day that Paul refers to:

              "And so all Israel shall be saved;as it is written,There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer,and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob"(Ro.11:26).

              And to set the record straight,I am not a Mexican.I am a citizen of the USA although I live in Mexico.

              In His grace,--Jerry

              Comment


              • And to set the record straight,I am not a Mexican.I am a citizen of the USA although I live in Mexico.
                Thank you for that information. I was wondering about that.

                Comment


                • Jerry, your a Mexican.
                  And to set the record straight,I am not a Mexican.I am a citizen of the USA although I live in Mexico.
                  Of course he is a citizen of the USA, for his citizenship is not with heaven but of earth.

                  Ac:21:39: But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.

                  Eph:2:19: Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;


                  Let's get to the meat:

                  And Scripture also declares that there are two types of Israelites "according to the flesh":

                  "For they are not all Israel,who are of Israel"(Ro.9:6).
                  Two types according to the flesh? What types are they, who are they? According to Jerry, everything seedms to be according to the flesh, even salvation.

                  The Bible however tells us differently.

                  And for those attempting to say that the church of the present dispensation is the seed or children of Israel,let me repeat what I said in an earlier post.We are sons of Abraham,and Israel was the grandson of Abraham.Therefore,we cannot possibly be the seed or children of Israel.
                  OKAY Jerry, if you say so.

                  Oh but wait,

                  Why would Paul wish himself to be accursed from Christ for his kinsmen IF HE KNEW THEY WERE GOD'S CHILDREN ACCORDING TO THE FLESH?

                  Ro:9:1: I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
                  Ro:9:2: That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
                  Ro:9:3: For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
                  Ro:9:4: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
                  Ro:9:5: Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
                  Ro:9:6: Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
                  Ro:9:7: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham,are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
                  Ro:9:8: That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed



                  So Jerry is still dodging the questions, why wont he tell us????

                  #1So perhaps Jerry will be so kind to tell us exactly how these children of the devil (john Ch. 8), although ETHNIC Jews are of the same Israel that God said would be His people forever?

                  #2 And furthermore how can God's ETHNICALLY chosen people be WITHOUT HIM yet be His?

                  #3 Even more, how can those without FAITH in HIM be pleasing to HIM? (Isn't that something the Bible declares to be IMPOSSIBLE?)

                  #4 Didn't Jesus say they shall DIE in their SINS if they believe not that Jesus is He? (HOW can God's people DIE in their sins?~IMPOSSIBLE)

                  #5 Is Christ divided, and if so are those outside of Jesus Christ God's people?

                  Think of this Jerry, what of the 6, 000,000 ETHNIC JEWS that died in the holocost, most or the 99% majority without FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST?

                  #6 Were they saved by your standards?

                  #7 Or will it just be those Jews during your "End Times" revival?

                  If it's just the end time Jews then ALL Jews were not saved.

                  If all ETHNIC Jews were and will be saved then FAITH PROFITS NOTHING, we just need to change our names to Silverman and we also shall be saved.

                  #8 Your spewing lies Jerry, I think you know this as well, and I ask you to repent.



                  Address the 8 points made by pasting the question the providing the answer for it, if you would Jerry.

                  If your are right, you should be able to give answer to these questions.


                  I don't think you can, nor will attempt but will keep doing the Mexican hat dance. mira, mira el tonto esta bailando~Inteindes que yo te digo senor. Claro que no.
                  Last edited by Revelation717; September 21st, 2002, 01:14 PM.
                  Oh man, would ya look at this...we got alot of work to do!

                  Comment


                  • Revelation717 just ignores the answer I have previously given that states that in the future that ethnic Israel will indeed repent and become His people again.

                    Perhaps he should read Zech.13:8,9 again.According to these verses,the Lord will once again come to ethnic Israel and refine them,and after that we read,"I will say,It is My people;and they shall say,The Lord is My God."

                    The Lord also said that there would be a day in the future when Jerusalem would say,"Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord"(Mt.23:39).

                    So we see that although ethnic Israel at this time remains out of God´s favor,Scripture reveals that in the future ALL OF ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED (Ro.11:26).

                    And all of Revelation´s questions are based on his misguided belief that ethnic Israel will not repent in the future.

                    His beliefs are also based on the false notion that God has forever cast away ethnic Israel,but Paul makes thisstatement that should settle the question forever:

                    "God hath not cast away His people whom He foreknew"(Ro.11:2).

                    And I never said that all Jews throughout history have been saved.The Lord´s purpose in choosing ethnic Israel is in regard to SERVICE.They were to become a "kingdom of priests" that they might serve Him.

                    For some reason he just cannot believe Paul who says that "God hath NOT cast away His people whom He foreknew"(Ro.11:2).

                    It must be nice to be so sure of our beliefs that we can assume that we know more than even Paul knew.

                    And I never said that salvation is according to the flesh.Revelation717 cannot find anything in error with the things I said so he is forced to put words in my mouth that I never said in order that he can attack something.

                    And then after making false charges against me he then he says that it is I who is spewing lies.

                    So from now on I will not respond to anything he says.

                    Comment


                    • So from now on I will not respond to anything he says.
                      And this would be different from what you have been doing in what way??? You never fully respond to what anyone says, thus, one of my ground rules for further debate with you would be the "quote" and "answer" format.

                      Comment


                      • I see we are making progress.

                        I'm not talking to Jerry because I refuse to get into a finger pointing judgemental kind of thing.

                        Now Jerry is not talking with Rev717. At his rate maybe none of will be talking to each other and we can get on with serious humble discission of God's truth. Which all of us are at various stages of figuring out.

                        The problem here is party spirit. The idea that we are correct and no one else is.

                        I'll admit to Jerry that I was in such a hurry to tell him was wrong that I just decieded to over look that yes the Bible does clearly say that there will be a special time when God will send His Spirit to the Jews. While Jerry and I disagree on how that will happen, I can not argue that the Bible is very vlear about this. I just don't think it will have anything to do with the rebuilding of the temple or revolve around a "great tribulation."

                        Comment


                        • the Bible does clearly say that there will be a special time when God will send His Spirit to the Jews. While Jerry and I disagree on how that will happen, I can not argue that the Bible is very vlear about this.
                          And I agree with this. But I also believe, as I think Jack does as well, the Bible is very clear that God will send His Spirit upon all people in fulfillment of the Great Commission and promise to return as a victorious King. But no doubt about it, the Jews will be converted, but in the same way as everyone else... by becoming part of the one Body of Christ. There is no distinction.

                          Comment


                          • Oh Jerry wont talk to me anymore.

                            And why not drop out now, after all he cannot answer the questions.

                            You see, the point is Jerry says that the Jews have been God's people ever since He brought them out of Egypt.

                            With that said, he cannot tell us how God's chosen people could EVER die in their sins?

                            But Jesus said they would IF they didn't believe in Him.

                            Paul said they would IF they didn't believe in Jesus.

                            But Jerry says the continue to be God's people despite the several NT references to God's people now being those of faith in Jesus, the children of the promise, not of the flesh.

                            Revelation717 just ignores the answer I have previously given that states that in the future that ethnic Israel will indeed repent and become His people again.
                            Well well well, Jerry.

                            To become His people AGAIN?

                            To become something again must indeed imply that at SOME POINT they were NOT!

                            But your 2 Sam 7:24 and the basis of your arguement was that ETHNIC ISREAL have ALWAYS been God's people and will continue until that Last Great Day!

                            So from your own mouth what do you mean by again?

                            You'll dodge this as well, I am sure, but EVERYONE else here can see you cannot keep from wandering and wavering. You are as unsteady as the roaring sea.

                            When ETHNIC Israel REPENTS and becomes God's people AGAIN what then will they be called?

                            I think Jack S pointed out the simple fact they will then become CHRISTIANS! No strife with the Scripture.

                            They would then be CHRISTIANS and even today there are those whom once held Judiastic beliefs but came to the saving knowledge of Jesus their Messiah and NOW are called CHRISTIANS!

                            But Jerry must show us reference to 3 groups of people that God is concerned with, The Unbelieving Jew, The Christian and the Unbeliever (as well as point out what makes this group different from the unbelieving jew).

                            He couldn't nor wouldn't do it, so bye bye!

                            Yet he will maintain his heretical beliefs and continue to propagate them to sheep (every wolf needs to feed).

                            And now he would rather back out of this discussion than be shown that he did bear false witness against me and CANNOT provide any quotes to prove his accusations.

                            REPENT!
                            Oh man, would ya look at this...we got alot of work to do!

                            Comment


                            • Yes Dee Dee I agree it's called victory in time and in history!

                              OF THE INCREASE OF HIS KINGDOM THERE WILL NO END!

                              Amen and Amen! Thus my signature!

                              Comment


                              • Let us look at the Three Musketeers for a good laugh.

                                Dee Dee will not defend any of the many verses I bring up because the rules of this forum and this thread do not suit her taste.So she does her best to make it appear that it is I who is dodging the issues,when in fact it is Dee Dee who is running just as fast as she can from the Scriptures I bring up.

                                And Revelation717 keeps ignoring what I say and calling me a liar.He continues to say that I teach that ethnic Israel will be saved while they remain in unbelief,even though I have repeatedly provided Scripture to demonstrate that they will repent and accept the Lord Jesus Christ.

                                And JackS believes that "Israel" at 2Sam.7:23,24 refers to the "man" Israel,despite the clear word of Scripture that states in no uncertain terms that the "Israel" is in fact A NATION!I guess he believes that his interpretation is a "serious humble discussion of God´s truth"!!

                                What a joke!!

                                This is the verse,and you can judge for yourselves if this is a "serious discussion of God´s truth "or not:

                                "And what NATION in the earth is like Thy people,even like Israel,whom God went to redeem for a people to Himself,and to make Him a name,and to do for you great things and awe-inspiring,for thy land,before Thy people,which Thou redeemedst from Egypt,from the nations and their gods?For Thou hast confirmed to Thyself Thy people,Israel,to be a people unto Thee FOREVER;and Thou,Lord,art become their God"(2Sam.7:23,24).

                                O yes,what a serious discussion of God´s truth!We are supposed that the "Israel" here is the man Israel.This only demonstrates how desperate they are to defend the teaching of man at the expense God´s truth.

                                My next post will be about whether or not the Lord Jesus Christ will rule from a throne that is located on earth or not.If it is true that the Lord Jesus will indeed rule from a throne on earth,the WHOLE,COMPLETE argument that Dee Dee and her bunch teach will be exposed as error.

                                Let us see who faces the issue and who will run.And who will sit on the sidelines because the established rules of this forum and thread do not suit her tastes.But perhaps now that she has finally made a comment on a substantive point,perhaps her vacation is over and she will finally defend her ideas.

                                In His grace,--Jerry

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