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  • One thing that God did not create is confusion:

    "For God is not the author of CONFUSION,but of peace,as in all the churches of the saints"(1Cor.14:33).

    And when men purposefully ignore some Scriptures in order to preach the doctrines of men,the ending is CONFUSION!

    The confused ones and those that cause CONFUSION on this thread are the ones who ignore the following verses that prove beyond any doubt that God has not cast away ethnic Israel:

    "For the Lord will not cast off His people,neither will He forsake His inheritance"(Ps.94:14).

    "For the Lord will not forsake His people for His great name´s sake,because it had pleased the Lord to make you His people"(1Sam.12:22).

    And it is definite that "His people" in this verse refers to ethnic Israel,who was redeemed out of Egypt:

    "For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God;the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto Himself,above all people who are on the face of the earth...the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand,and redeemed you out of the house of bondage,from the hand of Pharaoh,king of Egypt"(Deut.7:6,8).

    But no matter how many times some will read these verses,they just cannot believe that they are true.They have bought into the doctrines invented by man and they are very faithful to those false doctrines.They jusr cannot believe their own eyes when they read these verses.They just stick their head in the sand and go about their business of creating CONFUSION!

    But no matter what they say,the truth of God remains.God has not cast away ethnic Israel:

    "For Thou hast confirmed to Thyself Thy people,Israel,to be a people unto Thee FOREVER;and Thou,Lord,hath become their God"(2Sam.7:24).

    It is true that up to this point in time that ethnic Israel has not served God´s purposes as His chosen nation.But God is sovereign,and He has decided that in the future that ethnic Israel will indeed be a nation of priests.They will finally be a blessing to the world:

    "And it shall come to pass that,as ye were a curse among the nations,O house of Judah and house of Israel,so will I save you,and ye shall be a blessing;fear not,but let your hands be strong"(Zech.8:13).

    God is sovereign and He will not be constrained in any way,especially by the doctrines of men.The day will come when ethnic Israel will indeed be a blessing to the whole world.If He says it will happen,then it will happen--no matter what some men may say.

    In His grace,--Jerry

    Comment


    • Jerry,
      Very nice Scriptures.
      Now the question that begs to be asked.

      Who are God's people?

      Where the Jews the children of Abraham?

      Why yes direct decendants.

      So what does Galations 3:29 say, Youngs Literal:
      and if ye are of Christ then of Abraham ye are seed, and according to promise—heirs.

      So who are God's people? Why Chrsitians are God's people the seed of Abraham. Not only are they God's people, they are heirs.

      Comment


      • Dee Dee,
        Hey AJ: Did you see that Optimus has the same avatar as you?? That got me really confused for a minute... I had to do a double-take on the name.
        I saw that. I glanced at the avatar once, thought it was me and read the post which I couldn't remember writing, and thought I was going nuts until 5 minutes later I realized the name was different. Really scared me, I thought I lost my mind!

        Jerry,

        I said that one must BELIEVE GOD in order to be saved.It is not about FOLLOWING God perfectly,as you say,but instead it is about BELIEVING His word.
        Ooooo, big difference.

        Comment


        • Dear AJ:

          That is funny!! Well here is what happened to me.. Optimus very kindly posted a question over on another thread asking what preterism was... I had to do a double-take on the avatar and name because that if you were asking that, you really haven't been paying attention

          Comment


          • JackS,

            The answer as to the identity of God´s people can be found in one of the verses I quoted--Deut.7:8--they are the people who were redeemed out of Egypt.Paul calls them Israelites,"my kinsman according to the flesh"(Ro.9:4).

            "Who are the Israelites;to whom pertaineth the adoption,and the glory,and the covenants,and the giving of the law,and the service of God,AND THE PROMISES"(Ro.9:4).

            And yes,believers in the present dispensation are called "Abraham´s seed" and we also are heirs according to the promise(Gal.3:29).The promise that the Gentile believers are made heirs can be found earlier in the same chapter:

            "And the Scripture,foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles through faith,preached before the gospel unto Abraham,saying,In thee shall all nations be blessed"(Gal.3:8).

            However,that does not make the Gentiles the seed of Israel (Jacob),or the children of Israel.The Lord God made promises to ethnic Israel that are not shared by the members of the church of the present dispensation.They belong to the children of Israel exclusively.

            And one of the promises that was given directly to ethnic Israel is the promise that He would never cast them away forever as His special people.He also promised them that although they had been a curse in the past,at some time in the future they would be a blessing.

            The Scriptures cannot be any clearer:

            "For Thy hast confirmed to Thyself Thy people,Israel,to be a people to Thee forever;and Thou,Lord,art become their God"(2Sam.7:24).

            And the preceding verse makes it equally clear that this refers to ethnic Israel:

            "And what one nation in the earth is like Thy people...which Thou redeemedst to Thee from Egypt..."(2Sam.7:23).

            In His grace,--Jerry

            Comment


            • Rev 7:17:

              So since we have not one of the things mentioned in Daniel 9:24-27 then we obviously have all 70 weeks to go.
              Wow, you know a person can actually learn alot more about disps and their weirdo, confusing, boring doctrine by reading the posts of the ones who ridicule it!

              That's right, Rev 7:17! The Jews never got their iniquity reconciled, did they! So accoring to the disps, then the 70 weeks never even started! And like you said, since we don't find the word "Messiah" anywhere in the New Testament, surely we can deduce (just as we can that Church isn't the BRIDE because it never says "The CHurch is the bride") that the Messiah never came yet, huh??

              DUH



              Revelation 22
              14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

              15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

              Comment


              • Jerry,
                What does this verse just go away?

                and if ye are of Christ then of Abraham ye are seed, and according to promise—heirs.

                Deal with it. It's in the bible! Christians are the seed of Abraham.

                Daddy daddy make the big bad verse go away! Is dosen't agree with what I believe.

                Comment


                • JackS,

                  I did deal with that verse.

                  Please read what I said again.If you disagree with anything in particular I said,then tell me what it is.But don´t say that I did not deal with it,because I did.I said that the promise of which the Gentiles are heirs can be found at Gal.3:8.I also said that being the seed of Abraham does not make the Gentiles the seed,or children,of Israel (Jacob).

                  The believing Gentiles are the seed of Abraham because they "walk in the steps of that faith of our father,Abraham"(Ro.4:12).

                  Now it is your turn.Do you belive the words of the following verse refers to ethnic Israel?

                  "For Thou hast confirmed to Thyself Thy people,Israel,to be a people unto thee forever,and Thou,Lord,art become their God"(2Sam.7:24).

                  In His grace,--Jerry

                  Comment


                  • It's in the Bible, deal with it!

                    Oh no Jerry would never claim he is teaching doctrines of man, fables and lies, would he? Everything he has said has been proven backwards and forwards with Scripture upon Scriputre.

                    Yeah right!

                    Jerry who is the Bride of Christ Jesus?

                    You keep dodging but I throw fast, hard and accurate, and I use the Bible and the Holy Ghost to guide me. What out!


                    Jerry says:
                    One thing that God did not create is confusion:

                    "For God is not the author of CONFUSION,but of peace,as in all the churches of the saints"(1Cor.14:33).

                    And when men purposefully ignore some Scriptures in order to preach the doctrines of men,the ending is CONFUSION!
                    What happens when they ignore ALL Scripture?

                    2Co:11:2: For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

                    OOOOPS!

                    Ro:7:4: Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


                    Oh man, would ya look at this...we got alot of work to do!

                    Comment


                    • Hey Jerry,

                      You said:
                      .I said that the promise of which the Gentiles are heirs can be found at Gal.3:8.I also said that being the seed of Abraham does not make the Gentiles the seed,or children,of Israel (Jacob).

                      I can not believe you said this.

                      Lets see her:
                      Abraham -> Issac (Child of promise) -> Jacob

                      So what you are saying is that Christians are the seed of Abraham, not of Jacob because they are different lines. Is that what you are saying?

                      But wait my bad Galatians verse says that Christians are heirs to what was promised. HERIS! Was Ishmael a heir, no he was a child of the flesh. Was Jacob an heir? Why yes he was of the line of promise. Just like the Christians. If they are heirs, just as Jacob was they are of the same line.

                      You use Gal 3:8 but ignore what is just one verse above that.
                      6according as Abraham did believe God, and it was reckoned to him—to righteousness; 7know ye, then, that those of faith—these are sons of Abraham,

                      Those of faith are the sons of Abraham!!!!!

                      So who has faith today, the nation of Isreal or the Christians?
                      Since the Jews, Israel rejects the Christ I guess that leaves the Chrsitians. How does a Jew today show the faith that God requires, why by believing on Christ. What does that then make him? A Christian! So the only way for anyone to become a child of promise is to become a Christian.

                      I love your plan! A Jew can reject Christ and contrary to what Scripture says they are still a child of promise.

                      No 2Sam.7:24 does not apply to ethnic Israel. Change Isreal to Jacob. Did not God change his name? Who was Jacob? A child of promise, a child of faith. The children of faith shall be a people unto God forever! That makes sense.

                      Comment


                      • JackS,

                        "For Thou hast confirmed to Thyself Thy people,Israel,to be a people unto Thee forever;and Thou Lord,art become their God"(2Sam.7:24).

                        You say that this verse does NOT refer to ethnic Israel!

                        Well,speaking about UNBELIEF,how can you say that considering that the preceding verse clearly identifies "Israel" as being the people who were redeemed out of Egypt!

                        "And what nation in the earth is like Thy people,EVEN LIKE ISRAEL,whom God went to redeem for a people unto Himself,and to make Him a name,and to do great things and awe-inspiring,for thy land,because Thy people,which Thou redeemedst from Egypt,from the nation and their gods?"(2Sam.7:23).

                        For you to deny that this is in reference to ethnic Israel is unbelievable.As I said earlier,those who teach that ethnic Israel has no future in God´s plans just cannot believe what is written in black and white.You prove my point!

                        You attempt to CHANGE the meaning of God´s words by saying that we must CHANGE the word "Israel" to "Jacob".BRILLIANT,Jack!Can´t you see that the reference is not to the man "Jacob",but instead to the NATION of Israel--"And what NATION on earth is like Thy people..."

                        Is typlifies the disrespect that you have for the Holy Scriptures when they do not match your false ideas.

                        Are you still willing to argue that 2Sam.7:24 does not refer to ethnic Israel?

                        And are you saying that the Christians are heirs to EVERYTHING that was promised?

                        What about this?:

                        "And it shall come to pass that,as ye were a curse among nations,O house of Judah and house of Israel,so will I save you,and ye shall be a blessing"(Zech.8:13).

                        When was the Church ever a "curse"? Are you willing to say that this verse refers to the church?

                        And although ethnic Israel does not have faith now,in the future they will:

                        "And it shall come to pass that in all the land,saith the Lord,two parts in it shall be cut off and die;but the third shall be left in it.And I will bring the third part through the fire,and will refine them as silver is refined,and will teast them as gold is tested;they shall call on My name,and I will hear them.I will say,It is My people;and they will say,The Lord is my God"(Zech.13:8,9).

                        So there will come a time in the future that the Jews will indeed believe God.In the future they will be a blessing to the entire world.And at that time the following will happen:

                        "In those days shall it come to pass that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations,even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew,saying,Wewill go with you;for we have heard that God is with you"(Zech.8:23).

                        In His grace,--Jerry
                        Last edited by Jerry Shugart; September 20th, 2002, 08:04 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Is the church the bride of Christ?

                          Well,first let me point out that the "bride" is the "New Jerusalem"(Rev.21:2).And let me also point out that Paul says that the "Jerusalem which is above" is our Mother (Gal.4:26).

                          As far as 2Cor.11:2 is concerned,it is noteworthy that Paul did not use the word "bride" but the ordinary word for an unmarried girl.According to Alfred Edersheim this verse illustrates the positon of a groomsman (or 'friend of the bridegroom') at a Jewish marriage.Besides their other functions,they were "the guarantors of the bride´s virgin chasitity"("Jewish Social Life",p.153).So here Paul is using that figure to express his "jealously" for the Corinthian Christians.

                          At Romans 7:4,Paul applies an illustration of marriage to a believer and the law.He said,You also died (or literally 'you were put to death',as was true of the Lord Jesus) to the law.Just as the believer "died to sin" (6:2) andso is "set free from sin" (6:18,22),so he also died to the Law and is seperated and set free from it (6:14;Gal.2:19),As a wife is no longer married to her husband when he dies,so a Christian is no longer under the Law.This separation was through the body of Christ because of the Lord´s death on the cross.As a result Christians belong to another,to Him Who was raised from the dead.

                          However,Scripture is plain that the Bride of Christ is our Mother--the Mother of us all.And there is not one Scriptual passage that statesthat the Church is the Bride of Christ.

                          The Church is not the Bride,but instead the Church is His Body.And the church will remain His body in all the coming ages.He has joined the Church with the Lord and we are His Body so "that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness towardsus through Christ Jesus"(Eph.2:7).

                          Comment


                          • Is typlifies the disrespect that you have for the Holy Scriptures when they do not match your false ideas.

                            False ideas????

                            Jerry you've been rampant with false ideas.

                            Jack pointed out clearly what the Scripture clearly states:

                            Those of faith are the sons of Abraham!!!!!

                            So who has faith today, the nation of Isreal or the Christians?
                            Since the Jews, Israel rejects the Christ I guess that leaves the Chrsitians. How does a Jew today show the faith that God requires, why by believing on Christ. What does that then make him? A Christian! So the only way for anyone to become a child of promise is to become a Christian.


                            Well done Jack!

                            You seem to think that "sometime" in the future (everything is somwhere off in the future isn't it? It makes it easier for you to preach heresy if we can just say "Well it's gonna happen sometime") Jews will be justified.

                            Well Jerry you seem to forget the Bible tells us there were many Jews who came to the saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus.

                            But they were a remnant!

                            Never does it say the whole ETHNIC nation of Israel will be saved. And if that distant future ETHNIC Israel finds grace, what of those who now lie in graves, and died in unbelief, shall they as well be saved?

                            No never! So therefore it is reasonable to say that the Scriptures are true, unless they believe they shall die IN THEIR SINS! Whether or not they are ETHNIC Israel.

                            But what of those whom died in unbelief? If they are not saved then what does that say of your "PROOF" Scriptures?

                            You have failed to rightly divide and speak truth without mixture of error. I think you outright lie and I also think you know it!

                            Ro:11:1: I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
                            Ro:11:2: God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
                            Ro:11:3: Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
                            Ro:11:4: But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
                            Ro:11:5: Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

                            The elect.

                            Somehow I think this ties into Matthew 24 and the Trib. don't you?

                            Ro:11:19: Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
                            Ro:11:20: Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
                            Ro:11:21: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
                            Ro:11:22: Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
                            Ro:11:23: And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

                            The Scriptures again are true, IF they abide not still in unbelief they will be graffed in, BUT NOWHERE does it say that they most certainly and absolutely be graffed in regardless.

                            And if they are graffed in what do they become but a Christian?

                            There are many Jewish Christians. These have been graffed back into the tree.

                            You do greatly err not knowing the Sciptures nor the power of God.

                            And why do you keep avoiding posting the quotes I asked you for. Is it because your a liar? I think this is rather obvious that you are. I don't think, nay I know you cannot know the truth because you are FULLED UP with darkness, a child of disobedience like the Jews of the synagouge of Satan, your father and true love.

                            The Bride is heavenly Jerusalem.

                            Well then I guess you made my other point for me, although you cannot connect the dots, we spoke of heavenly Jerusalem before but you continue to abide in unbelief, rather taking a knee to Baal your god and hope.

                            Be accursed ye that pervert the truth and glory of the Lord into lies and fables of men, unreliable, untrustworthy and good for nothing, yeilding and bearing no spiritual fruit, but ready to be cut down and thrown to the fire.
                            Oh man, would ya look at this...we got alot of work to do!

                            Comment


                            • Those of faith are the sons of Abraham.

                              Despite what anyone may say,I did not neglect this verse.Instead,I affirmed that it is true.However,that does not mean that Christians are the seed of Israel (Jacob).And that is exactly what some want us to believe.

                              In fact,since the Christian is the son of Abraham then we could not possibly be of the seed of Israel,because Israel is the grandson of Abraham.

                              But instead of accepting the fact that the Christian is the seed of Abraham and NOT the seed of Israe,they continue to insist that God has permanently cast away ethnic Israel and the Church now represents Israel.They also continue to DENY what Scripture so plainly teaches:

                              "For Thou hast confirmed to Thyself Thy people,Israel,to be a people unto Thee FOREVER;and Thou,Lord,art become their God"(2Sam.7:24).

                              The only one who has dared to deal with this verse only does so by perverting the context in which this verse is stated.And the other person continues to avoid it like the plague.And Dee Dee is taking a break from dealing with these Scriptual passages.

                              He also says that Scripture never says that all ethnic Israel will be saved,but yet he does NOT deal with the verse I provided that states that all Israel will be saved--Zechariah 13:8-9.

                              And let us see whether there is a verse that says all ethnic Israel will be saved:

                              "And so all of Israel shall be saved;as it is written,There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer,and shall turn away all ungodliness from Jacob"(Ro.11:26).

                              Besides Paul says:"...what shall the receiving of them be,but life from the dead?"

                              Speaking of ethnic Israel,Paul also says,"Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world,and the diminishing of them the riches of the world,HOW MUCH MORE THEIR FULLNESS?"(Ro.11:12).

                              And Paul also states in no uncertain terms that "God HATH NOT cast away His people whom He foreknew"(Ro.11:2),but there are some who think that they know more than Paul.They say that God has indeed forever cast away ethnic Israel.

                              Also,he avoids the following verse:

                              "And it shall come to pass that,as ye were a curse among the nations,O house of Judah and house of Israel,so will I save you,and ye shall be a blessing"(Zech.8:13).

                              They continue to put their heads in the sand and pretend that all these verses do not even exist!

                              And since the Heavenly Jerusalem is the Bride of the Lamb,we would expect that the description given of the Heavenly Jerusalem would match the description of the Church,which is His Body.

                              Well,in the Church "there is neither Greek NOR JEW,circumcision nor uncircumcision"(Col.3:11).In the Church there is no distinction at all between the Gentile and the Jew.But that is not the case in regard to the Bride.The The twelve gates of the city bear the names of THE TWELVE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL (Rev.21:12).

                              But since this description does not fit his false ideas,he just ignores it.Just as he ignores the plain word of God that ethnic Israel will be the Lord´s people FOREVER!

                              Why will he not tell us what these verses mean--2Sam.7:23,24?

                              "For unto us was the gospel preached,as well unto them;but the word preached did not profit them,not being mixed with faith in them who heard it"(Heb.4:2).
                              Last edited by Jerry Shugart; September 20th, 2002, 10:51 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Jerry you said:
                                Is typlifies the disrespect that you have for the Holy Scriptures when they do not match your false ideas.

                                Game over. I refuse to continue. This is nothing but chasing after the wind.

                                Rev717;

                                Thank you.

                                Comment

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