POST GAME SHOW - Battle Royale III

[Jerry Shugart]

Dee Dee,

Do you still remain under the illusion that the kingdom has already been put into place?If so,perhaps you will enlighten us as to when the Apostle´s ate and drank at the Lord´s table,and when the Apostles sat on their thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

And why would you want to move all this discussion to another place?This is obviously the appropriate place to hold this discussion,Dee Dee.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Jerry I would still like your answer to my proposal. And as to the why... first of all, I told you that I am taking somewhat of a break, so I will not be able to start right away... and this thread is not about a continued Debate between you and I, it is about the one that was for 10 Rounds that is now over. Anything further I do with you was not part of the bargain and would be over and above what we both agreed to do. Additionally, though I am glad to continue to take you on head to head, it would not be anything "official" and it is my understanding that such "unofficial" battles go to the Back Alley. That is what that area was created for.

So, I would still like an answer to my proposal.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Dee Dee,

Do what you want to do.I am going to contiue to demonstrate that your brag that you thrashed me was only that--a brag.

Words are cheap!

I will continue to prove that your position is unscriptual and it is up to you whether or not you wish to defend your position.That is completely up to you.

No one forced you into this debate and no one is forcing you to defend your unscriptual ideas.I surely would not blame you if you decided that it is prudent not to attempt to defend the indefensible.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Jerry that is not an answer. Of course no one forced either of us into the Debate... I am glad we did it, and it was great fun. If you remember, I asked you personally to be my opponent. So please the melodramatics are not warranted.... I would like to continue with you but I had some requests that I provided you the link to. I am happy to continue to debate you, all I am asking is if those terms are acceptable to you and if you have any of your own. Are they or are they not?? I am willing to continue to debate you indefinitely with those proposals in place and am willing to hear whatever ground rules you would like as well.

Please answer the question.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

To be honest, to use some of your terminology here, I think that you realize that I am on limited time right now so you are trying to come across as all big and tough and agressive because you know that I will not answer you right now. That is a very cheap and transparent tactic. I am offering you my indefinite attention for an extended debate.... you should jump at that chance but apparently you just want to try and take pot shots while your opponent is distracted with other business. I would not do that to you, but again, that is your business I suppose. Are you willing to continue a semi-structured debate indefinitely??

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Dee Dee,

Well,if anyone is an expert on "cheap tactics",it is you.And please notice that I was agressive BEFORE you said that you were taking a rest.It is obvious that you became disinterested in answering my points after you realized that you could not provide an answer.

Now let us get down to business and cease from stalling around and avoiding the issues.If you think that you thrashed me,then these points I have raised should be no problem for you at all.

If the kingdom is now in place,as you maintain,then WHEN did the Apostles sit at the table of the Lord and when did they judge the twelve tribes of Israel?

If you choose not to answer,that is fine.I will simply continue to punch holes in your false teaching.From now on I will not respond to any points unless they are in reference to the questions raised in the debate.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Jerry it is a simple question.... I am willing to engage in further debate with you, but I do insist on those ground rules I already posted along with any that you may have. And your points are laughably no problem at all, but due to the experience I already have with you, I insist upon those ground rules. Can you agree or not?? Or are you just posturing?? I think it is the latter, but who knows, maybe you seriously want to continue. I rather doubt it..... you prefer to capitalize on a situation when you know your opponent will not respond. cheap, cheap, cheap

 

[Revelation717]

Well Jerry,

I see you keep right on posting but wil not offer the quotes I asked you for. Pretty sad, I gave you that opportunity to see how you mouth is full of lies but for some reason you wont or cannot do the same for me.

You ask some questions and I'd be happy to respond.

You keep saying God has not cast off ETHNIC Israel and provide some quotes concerning God's people to support this:

But you still need to answer the questions I asked, which when understood you can clearly see God has not forsaken His people, never did and they are not limited to ETHNIC Israel.

Doesn't even bother you that you have to keep putting in YOUR own word ETHNIC to make a point? The Bible never says God has not cast away the nation of Israel" but His people.

So who are His people?

From the beginning of the Bible we can see there are only two types of people in this world.

Believers and unbelievers, God's children and the devil's children, children of light and children of darkness.

Jesus told the Jews in John Chapter 8 they were NOT of God and children of the devil.

Did not God (Jesus) right then and there tell them they were not His?

Yes as a matter of fact and Scripture He did.

You kep mentioning the wheat and tares like your on to something but you are so blind you don't even see or cannot see that there is nowhere that it says the tare (unbeliever) somehow becomes wheat. Let alone the fact the parable alludes to nothing of ETHNIC Israel, but keeps in rythm with the theme of the Bible believers and non believers. Period.


"For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God;the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto Himself,above all people who are upon the face of the earth...the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand,and redeemed you out of the house of bondage,from the hand of Pharaoh,king of Egypt"(Deut.6:6,8).

1Pe:2:5: Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe:2:6: Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe:2:7: Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe:2:8: And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
1Pe:2:9: But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe:2:10: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy

God has not cast off HIs people, the Jew can be grafted BACK in IF he believes but not UNTIL.

BUT ETHNIC Israel has no seperate salvation outside of belief in Jesus. PERIOD>

 

[Jerry Shugart]

In the debate Dee Dee continued to insist that the Apostles lived to see the Lord Jesus coming in HIs kingdom.But how can that be?The Lord Himself told His Apostles that they would share His table in the kingdom and in the kingdom they would judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

That did not happen.So it is obvious that the kingdom has not yet been put into place on the earth.And by the Scriptual passages that describe the kingdom that will be put in place on earth,it is obvious that the kingdom remains in the future:

"Behold,the days come,saith the Lord,that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch,and a King shall execute justice and righteousness in the earth"(Jer.23:5).

"They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord,as the waters cover the sea"(Isa.11:9).

During His kingdom rule the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord.It is clear that that is not the case today.And who would dare imagine (except perhaps Dee Dee) that the Lord has executed justice and righteousness in the earth during these troubling times?

No,the teaching that we are now living in the kingdom is an illusion shared by those who have been decived by the false teaching of man.

The following verses surely have not been fulfilled,because the ungodly on earth have not yet received their just dues:

"Ask of Me,and I shall give Thee the nations for Thy inheritance,and the uttermost parts of the earth for Thy possession.

"Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron;thou shalt dash them in pieces likea potter´s vessel"(Ps.2:8,9).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[cirisme]

Jerry,
Based on your position about salvation, I genuinely hope you got it right, or you have much to fear.

If, as you say, anyone does not follow God perfectly(which just means agree with you) they are bound to hell.

I believe that hell does not have literal fire, does that send me to hell?

I believe in following God fully, and since He is the expert I'll be fine following what He says and not what you say.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Jerry I know which of the stipulations just frightens you to death... my insistence that you go "quote" and "answer" style. If you are disarmed of your own weapon of dodging the points that you cannot answer, then you lose even more easily. I thought that one would get stuck in your craw.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Hey AJ: Did you see that Optimus has the same avatar as you?? That got me really confused for a minute... I had to do a double-take on the name.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

cirisme,

Could I ask you to refrain from putting words in my mouth that I never said?

I said that one must BELIEVE GOD in order to be saved.It is not about FOLLOWING God perfectly,as you say,but instead it is about BELIEVING His word.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

When the Lord walked the earth,He said:

"After this manner,therefore,pray ye:Our Father,Who art in heaven,Hallowed be Thy name.Thy Kingdom come.Thy will be done in earth,as it is in heaven"(Mt.6:9,10).

The Lord is saying that when the kingdom is set up on earth,then at that time His will be done on the earth as it is in heaven.Anyone who believes that the horrible things that are happening on the earth now are according to His will are deluding themselves.

As I said previously,when the kingdom of God will be established on earth "the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord,as the waters cover the sea"(Isa.11:9).

And again,anyone who thinks that that condition is present on earth now is deluding themselves because the earth is not now full of the knowledge of the Lord.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Revelation717]

I am a firm believer that God is Soveriegn. To say that anything that goes on in this world goes on without His knowledge or will that good may come out of it, is simply insane, vain, and reprobate.

Anyone who believes that the horrible things that are happening on the earth now are according to His will are deluding themselves.

Col:1:16: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

This leaves absolutely NOTHING that has been created without Him. Nothing including nuclear weapons, AK47s, cocaine, prison system, etc... They all have a purpose!

Some things are used to bring judgement and sorrow while others bring joy and peace. Those who know there God shall not be afraid.

Matter of fact Jerry if we are to interprete as you do, then no nuke or AK47 or knife or razor can harm us.

Isa:54:17: No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

Now would you care to tempt the Lord and show that this is a literal interpretation?


Those that do know their God also know that what may seem horrible is for the good of those that love God and are called according to His purpose.

Ro:8:28: And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

And by the Scriptual passages that describe the kingdom that will be put in place on earth,it is obvious that the kingdom remains in the future:

"Behold,the days come,saith the Lord,that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch,and a King shall execute justice and righteousness in the earth"(Jer.23:5).

So this is future as well? C'mon man, how deluded. Don't you even know Jesus is the righteous Branch spoken of here? Did God not raise Him up yet? Do you still wait for another? There would have to be another concerning your interpretation because the ETHNIC jew has not been made righteous without faith in Jesus, right?

Teachings of man. :no no: Jerry, Jerry Jerry, you've yet to point one thing out and back it with Scripture.

We all are still waiting for you to tell us how the children of the devil, the unbelieving Jew of John 8, is the chosen people of God?

How they still do Him service?

Why 1 Peter 2:9 says we are the people of God?

How the 70 weeks will unfold and bring the promises of Daniel 9:24 to an unbelieving nation that crucified God while He walked among them? (what more will they need?)

Who is the Bride of Christ if not the believers in Jesus aka the church?

And your quotes that I bore false witness against you?

I see you have craftily dodged all these and more. Fess up and enlighten us, let's settle the score here and now!

I know you will read this, and everyone else does too, so if you do not answer these questions which have been asked you from the beginning and quote my misrepresentation then everyone can know you do pervert the truth and teach fables of men as doctrine of God, your a liar and a heretic not knowing truth but having pleasure in lies as does your father.

What else can be said if you cannot answer, from Scripture that which you have already been shown?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

One thing that God did not create is confusion:

"For God is not the author of CONFUSION,but of peace,as in all the churches of the saints"(1Cor.14:33).

And when men purposefully ignore some Scriptures in order to preach the doctrines of men,the ending is CONFUSION!

The confused ones and those that cause CONFUSION on this thread are the ones who ignore the following verses that prove beyond any doubt that God has not cast away ethnic Israel:

"For the Lord will not cast off His people,neither will He forsake His inheritance"(Ps.94:14).

"For the Lord will not forsake His people for His great name´s sake,because it had pleased the Lord to make you His people"(1Sam.12:22).

And it is definite that "His people" in this verse refers to ethnic Israel,who was redeemed out of Egypt:

"For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God;the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto Himself,above all people who are on the face of the earth...the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand,and redeemed you out of the house of bondage,from the hand of Pharaoh,king of Egypt"(Deut.7:6,8).

But no matter how many times some will read these verses,they just cannot believe that they are true.They have bought into the doctrines invented by man and they are very faithful to those false doctrines.They jusr cannot believe their own eyes when they read these verses.They just stick their head in the sand and go about their business of creating CONFUSION!

But no matter what they say,the truth of God remains.God has not cast away ethnic Israel:

"For Thou hast confirmed to Thyself Thy people,Israel,to be a people unto Thee FOREVER;and Thou,Lord,hath become their God"(2Sam.7:24).

It is true that up to this point in time that ethnic Israel has not served God´s purposes as His chosen nation.But God is sovereign,and He has decided that in the future that ethnic Israel will indeed be a nation of priests.They will finally be a blessing to the world:

"And it shall come to pass that,as ye were a curse among the nations,O house of Judah and house of Israel,so will I save you,and ye shall be a blessing;fear not,but let your hands be strong"(Zech.8:13).

God is sovereign and He will not be constrained in any way,especially by the doctrines of men.The day will come when ethnic Israel will indeed be a blessing to the whole world.If He says it will happen,then it will happen--no matter what some men may say.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[JackS]

Jerry,
Very nice Scriptures.
Now the question that begs to be asked.

Who are God's people?

Where the Jews the children of Abraham?

Why yes direct decendants.

So what does Galations 3:29 say, Youngs Literal:
and if ye are of Christ then of Abraham ye are seed, and according to promise—heirs.

So who are God's people? Why Chrsitians are God's people the seed of Abraham. Not only are they God's people, they are heirs.

 

[cirisme]

Dee Dee,

Hey AJ: Did you see that Optimus has the same avatar as you?? That got me really confused for a minute... I had to do a double-take on the name.

I saw that. I glanced at the avatar once, thought it was me and read the post which I couldn't remember writing, and thought I was going nuts until 5 minutes later I realized the name was different. Really scared me, I thought I lost my mind!

Jerry,

I said that one must BELIEVE GOD in order to be saved.It is not about FOLLOWING God perfectly,as you say,but instead it is about BELIEVING His word.

Ooooo, big difference.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Dear AJ:

That is funny!! Well here is what happened to me.. Optimus very kindly posted a question over on another thread asking what preterism was... I had to do a double-take on the avatar and name because that if you were asking that, you really haven't been paying attention

 

[Jerry Shugart]

JackS,

The answer as to the identity of God´s people can be found in one of the verses I quoted--Deut.7:8--they are the people who were redeemed out of Egypt.Paul calls them Israelites,"my kinsman according to the flesh"(Ro.9:4).

"Who are the Israelites;to whom pertaineth the adoption,and the glory,and the covenants,and the giving of the law,and the service of God,AND THE PROMISES"(Ro.9:4).

And yes,believers in the present dispensation are called "Abraham´s seed" and we also are heirs according to the promise(Gal.3:29).The promise that the Gentile believers are made heirs can be found earlier in the same chapter:

"And the Scripture,foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles through faith,preached before the gospel unto Abraham,saying,In thee shall all nations be blessed"(Gal.3:8).

However,that does not make the Gentiles the seed of Israel (Jacob),or the children of Israel.The Lord God made promises to ethnic Israel that are not shared by the members of the church of the present dispensation.They belong to the children of Israel exclusively.

And one of the promises that was given directly to ethnic Israel is the promise that He would never cast them away forever as His special people.He also promised them that although they had been a curse in the past,at some time in the future they would be a blessing.

The Scriptures cannot be any clearer:

"For Thy hast confirmed to Thyself Thy people,Israel,to be a people to Thee forever;and Thou,Lord,art become their God"(2Sam.7:24).

And the preceding verse makes it equally clear that this refers to ethnic Israel:

"And what one nation in the earth is like Thy people...which Thou redeemedst to Thee from Egypt..."(2Sam.7:23).

In His grace,--Jerry