Discussion: Jerry Shugart vs Door

[godrulz]

You are not saved. You have a false god, who is under your control.

I think we are talking about fellowship and intimacy issues that happen even in a marriage. Unforgiveness is an issue in relationships that hinder vs sever them. Psalm 51 and 32 is a confession of a believer that removes the barrier to intimacy. You are wrongly extrapolating our views as a denial of relationship or salvation. I Jn. 1:9 for me is not a matter of risking my salvation, but of a closeness with a holy God who is grieved by sin, whether by believer or unbeliever. I do not confess my sins to get or keep saved (goodness knows how many unconfessed 'sin' is piling up in my life), but in response to the conviction of the Word and Spirit that I will not be ensnared by things that will hinder the closeness of God in my life (Heb. 12). Even with my own kids, wrongdoing is remedied by taking taking responsibility and keeping an open relationship free of hurts and the root of bitterness. It has nothing to do with being in or remaining in the family.

The issues around I Jn. 1:9 are not related directly to justification by grace through faith in your view or Jerry's view (I hope/think).

 

[Door]

God: Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins. I have sent my Son to die for all your sins. In Him you have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. By grace through faith in my Son you have received the gift of salvation. I have made you a new creation, and baptized you into my Son's Body. You are in Him, and He is in you, and you have been sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. In Him you have been made complete. You have been cleansed by His shed blood and been given the gift of righteousness. You are accepted in my Son, not because of any thing you have done, but because of what My Son has done. You have been transferred from darkness to light, and from death to life. Your life is eternal and you will never perish. You have been sanctified and justified. You are no longer under condemnation, and no longer under the Law that condemned you. It is finished! You are free from sin, and I no longer take your sins into account.

So-called "christian": I sinned again. I have broken the seal, and put out the light. I am dead, and condemned by the Law. I have corrupted your Son's Body, and have resurrected the old man. I am incomplete, and I have undone everything your Son did. His death and blood was only so good. I am unrighteous, because I have returned the gift you gave me freely. I am unsanctified, unholy, and unredeemed. I am re-uncircumcised. I am in bondage to the Law, and a slave of sin. I am unadopted, and have snatched myself from your hand. I am unfinished.

God: :doh: Does anyone believe what I say?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Go to hell, you worthless pile of turds.

"But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies" (Mt.15:18-19).​

You have failed so miserably to make a single argument that you have resorted to trying to get under my skin in the hopes that I would tell you to go to hell, so that you could boast about it on this thread.

Let us look at your lastest arument and all of us can see that you cannot understand the most simple things in regard to these verses which we are discussing:

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ" (1 Jn.1:1-3).​

You say that these people can have fellowship with John when they accept the things which John spoke of in verses one and two:

They can indeed have fellowship with John, if they take the opportunity to accept that John is indeed someone who heard, saw, touched, and witnessed Jesus coming in the flesh.

You should have taken the time to read the following verses to see what these people must do in order to have fellowship:

"That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 Jn.1:3-7).​

The thing that these people must accept is not that "John is indeed someone who heard, saw, touched, and witnessed Jesus coming in the flesh," as you imagine.

Instead, the message which John heard from the Lord concerns the fact that God is light and in order for these people to have fellowship they must walk in the light.

But the obvious is over your head.

You should admit that you made an error but instead of admitting your error you insult others. That seems to be your pattern of behavior on this forum.

In His grace,
Jerry

 

[Door]

You should admit that you made an error but instead of admitting your error you insult others. That seems to be your pattern of behavior on this forum.

In His grace,
Jerry

I am so glad you just made that post, because it will be a testimony to your stupidity.


The debate is not over you butt-faced pervert.

In fact, you will be so fully embarrassed by your easily discernible error, that you will never have the guts to show your face here again. It will be worse than what Bob Enyart did to Zakath.

 

[godrulz]

"In modern times some have occasionally denied that a Christian needs to confess his sins and ask forgiveness. It is claimed that a believer already has forgiveness in Christ (Eph. 1:7). But this point of view confuses the perfect position which a Christian has in God’s Son (by which he is even “seated . . . with Him in the heavenly realms” [Eph. 2:6]) with his needs as a failing individual on earth. What is considered in 1 John 1:9 may be described as “familial” forgiveness. It is perfectly understandable how a son may need to ask his father to forgive him for his faults while at the same time his position within the family is not in jeopardy. A Christian who never asks his heavenly Father for forgiveness for his sins can hardly have much sensitivity to the ways in which he grieves his Father. Furthermore, the Lord Jesus Himself taught His followers to seek forgiveness of their sins in a prayer that was obviously intended for daily use (cf. the expression “give us today our daily bread” preceding “forgive us our debts,” Matt. 6:11-12). The teaching that a Christian should not ask God for daily forgiveness is an aberration. Moreover, confession of sin is never connected by John with the acquisition of eternal life, which is always conditioned on faith. First John 1:9 is not spoken to the unsaved, and the effort to turn it into a soteriological affirmation is misguided."

Walvoord, John F. ; Zuck, Roy B. ; Dallas Theological Seminary: The Bible Knowledge Commentary : An Exposition of the Scriptures. Wheaton, IL : Victor Books, 1983-c1985, S. 2:886
:rapture:

This is similar to what I have been saying. Now the author of this commentary is in danger of hell-fire for disagreeing with Door:noway:

Door reminds me of an only child (Door and godrulz happen to be only children, so I know of what I speak).:baby:

I still maintain that I Jn. 1:9 is not an evangelist text (nor is Rev. 3:20), but is an exhortation for believers to deal with sin in God's way with His provision (which has a conditional element just as justification is conditioned on repentant faith appropriation).

 

[godrulz]

God: Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins. I have sent my Son to die for all your sins. In Him you have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. By grace through faith in my Son you have received the gift of salvation. I have made you a new creation, and baptized you into my Son's Body. You are in Him, and He is in you, and you have been sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. In Him you have been made complete. You have been cleansed by His shed blood and been given the gift of righteousness. You are accepted in my Son, not because of any thing you have done, but because of what My Son has done. You have been transferred from darkness to light, and from death to life. Your life is eternal and you will never perish. You have been sanctified and justified. You are no longer under condemnation, and no longer under the Law that condemned you. It is finished! You are free from sin, and I no longer take your sins into account.

So-called "christian": I sinned again. I have broken the seal, and put out the light. I am dead, and condemned by the Law. I have corrupted your Son's Body, and have resurrected the old man. I am incomplete, and I have undone everything your Son did. His death and blood was only so good. I am unrighteous, because I have returned the gift you gave me freely. I am unsanctified, unholy, and unredeemed. I am re-uncircumcised. I am in bondage to the Law, and a slave of sin. I am unadopted, and have snatched myself from your hand. I am unfinished.

God: :doh: Does anyone believe what I say?

Slow down...I Jn. 1:9 is about a specific, isolated lapse that is remedied by the provision of God. It is Heb. 6:4-6 that is about unbelief and apostasy, a different issue. Confusing the two creates a straw man that none of us believe.:hammer:

Perfectionism is not a biblical teaching.

 

[godrulz]

I am so glad you just made that post, because it will be a testimony to your stupidity.


The debate is not over you butt-faced pervert.

In fact, you will be so fully embarrassed by your easily discernible error, that you will never have the guts to show your face here again. It will be worse than what Bob Enyart did to Zakath.

I WAS impressed and pleasantly surprised at the good start you both had. The downward spiral is exactly why I am not quick to waste my time and energy with you, JCWR, AMR, NickM, STP, LH, Voltaire, etc.

 

[JCWR]

I WAS impressed and pleasantly surprised at the good start you both had. The downward spiral is exactly why I am not quick to waste my time and energy with you, JCWR, AMR, NickM, STP, LH, Voltaire, etc.

For someone who does not want to waste time and energy with so and so, you spend a great deal of time and energy saying so and trying to weasel your way into every other post with words clearly directed at JCWR, STP, Door, etc., etc.

You know something? AMR was right (you keep dropping his name so I could not resist reviewing some of his posts): you are double-minded.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I have said the Corinthians were carnal in some choices yet were called saints, set apart for God. They were rebuked for their carnality without denying their salvation. Heb. 6:4-6 is a different context about final falling away/apostasy/unbelief, not just fleshly failings like pride and immorality in the context of overall belief (e.g. Jimmy Swaggart and Ted Haggard and Jim Baker are not like Charles Templeton who died an agnostic-atheist).

STP is misrepresenting me again, showing that he should not deny my salvation based on straw men views.

I haven't corresponded with you in days...

 

[tetelestai]

For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. (Rom. 7:15)

So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin (nature) which indwells me. (Rom. 7:17)

During our lifetime as Christians we will always be plagued with the sin nature inherited from Adam. After we sin we may experience feelings of remorse or guilt; then, we may try to attain forgiveness from God by performing acts of penance or self- punishment. Why? We feel guilty because we make decisions to “do the very things we hate.” We punish ourselves to purge the guilt. We wrongly reason, When I feel forgiven, then I am forgiven.


Such human attempts to gain forgiveness can lead only to confusion, a guilt-ridden conscience, and spiritual impotence. No one can merit forgiveness from God. Understanding the relationship between the sin nature and sin is necessary to avoid a guilt complex once we become involved in sin.


When Adam chose to disobey God he died spiritually and was cursed with a sin nature. This sin nature, subsequently inherited by every human being, resulted in spiritual death separation from God in time and eternity and the sovereignty of the sin nature over human life (Rom. 6:12). The sin nature itself is passed down genetically through procreation and resides in the human body (Rom. 6:6; 7:14, 18).

Invisibly lurking in our genetic makeup, the sin nature continually tempts the soul to rebel against God. But the sin nature cannot make us sin. Temptation is not sin. The sin nature is only the source of temptation; our volition is the source of personal sin. Only when we choose to succumb to this inner tempter do we sin. Our choice makes us responsible for all our sins.


With the exception of Jesus Christ, every person born into the human race possesses a sin nature. Salvation does not eradicate this inherent corrupter of mankind, but does give us access to the only way to resolve the repercussions of sin in our lives. No believer will ever be sinless or perfect in this life.


The apostle John states the sin problem. The believer who denies he sins personally is guilty of self-deception, guilty of ignorance of divine truth, or guilty of calling God a liar which is blasphemy (1 John 1:8, 10). During his lifetime the believer continually struggles with sin. But God has not left us defenseless against the onslaught of the temptation of the sin nature and our propensity to sin.

 

[voltaire]

godrulz, do you realize there are christians who lust frequently, have fornicated with over a dozen women, smoked pot, hung around with the party crowd, stole, fist fought, cursed, rude and nasty tempered for days, lazy, ridiculed other christians, gossiped, didnt respect parents, had a general unloving attitude for large periods of time, stayed enraged for a long time and yet never lost awareness that God saw everything they did? in fact they talked to God about the above actions and still did more of same actions the next day. in fact, even though they were doing all these things, they spent an enormous time talking to God about their life and how they should proceed with that life. they never confessed any of those acts and did not ask for forgiveness. they saw no need to confess because they knew God saw it all anyway and they knew God knew they were aware of the wrongness of their actions. they did not ask for forgiveness after these acts because they knew God had already forgiven them. they didnt pro

 

[voltaire]

they also never told God that they would never do those things again. they didnt because they knew good and well that stuff would happen again. they didnt worry about trying to make sure it never happened again either. they told God that if those things displeased him, that he trusted God would take away the desire and need to do those things. he trusted that if God really wanted those things eliminated from his life, then God would work from within him to finally rid him of the character that made him do those things.
now godrulz, that person commits carnal acts on a pretty regular basis and yet still talks to God and trusts him. based on the information above is this person like the corinthians? or is this person a functional atheist as you like to coin that term? if that person died today, would they go to hell? this person trusted in Christ alone many years ago. is he a carnal christian? to me there is no carnal christians. to me this person is saved and is not carnal. what do you say?

 

[tetelestai]

Voltaire said:

they saw no need to confess because they knew God saw it all anyway and they knew God knew they were aware of the wrongness of their actions. they did not ask for forgiveness after these acts because they knew God had already forgiven them.

How about the prodigal son? Jesus shows the forgiveness of God in the parable of the prodigal son, and how the prodigal confessed his sins even though God knew anyway. The story revolves around the actions of three characters: the father, the elder brother, and the younger son. The younger son represents the believer who continually sins and is in carnality. His sins remove him from fellowship with his father, who represents God the Father.

Taking his share of his inheritance, the prodigal leaves home and departs to a far country. His continued debauchery and extravagance wreck his life (the consequences of carnality).

He becomes a beggar, living among pigs (portrays God's discipline). Having come to the end of his own resources he realizes how wretched he has become and determines to return to his father.

“I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, "father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight." (Luke 15:18)

This is the younger son acknowledging his sins (as described in 1 John 1:9)!!

However, his next statement reveals his confusion about forgiveness.

"l am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men“ (Luke 15:19)

Because of his lack of understanding grace, the prodigal convinces himself his father no longer loves him or regards him as a son. He thought his father would be more inclined to forgive him if he offered penance for his sins through self-sacrifice or guilt. He was wrong. Forgiveness was based on his father’s character. Christians often make this same error about God’s forgiveness.

When the son returned home he was astonished by the love, compassion, and forgiveness of his father.

“And he got up and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him, and felt compassion for him, and ran and embraced him, and kissed him.” (Luke 15:20)

This verse vividly portrays how God acts to forgive us. The omniscience of God knew every sin we would ever commit. The righteousness and justice of God insure our forgiveness through Christ’s payment for those sins. The love of God is because of that payment. His love guarantees compassion for us when we confess our sins.

When we name our sins to God it is as though the Father runs to us, throws His arms around us, and welcomes us back with a kiss. Our forgiven sins no longer affect our fellowship with God. That is the grace of God!

Often those with legalistic tendencies become upset because they think this is a license to sin. Some believers who fail may use 1 John 1:9 for exactly that purpose. But naming our sins restores the believer to a position where he can live his spiritual life and serve God, not excuse or rationalize sin.

 

[voltaire]

Tetelestai are you telling me that this person who talks to God daily and feels his presence is only talking to a figment of his imagination and doesnt feel the presence of God because he doesnt name his sins and doesnt ask for forgiveness?

 

[tetelestai]

Tetelestai are you telling me that this person who talks to God daily and feels his presence is only talking to a figment of his imagination and doesnt feel the presence of God because he doesnt name his sins and doesnt ask for forgiveness?

No member of the Trinity can fellowship with a believer having sin in his life. Sin destroys our temporal fellowship with the Lord, but cannot jeopardize our eternal relationship with Him. Confessing or naming our known sins to God the Father, is the only means compatible with grace for restoration of fellowship with God and the filling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[tetelestai]

Let’s try this: Picture two circles, one on top of the other, sort of like a figure eight.

When we believe in Jesus Christ as Savior, we enter not only the top circle, an eternal relationship with God, but we also enter the bottom circle, fellowship with God in time (temporal). We never leave the top circle no matter what.

Inside the bottom circle represents spirituality; outside represents carnality. Spirituality is the absolute status of being in fellowship with God, under the control of the Holy Spirit. Carnality is the absolute status of being out of fellowship, under the control of the sin nature. We cannot be partially spiritual and partially carnal. They are mutually exclusive. One is either completely in the bottom circle, or completely out of the bottom circle at any given time.

Every time we decide to sin we move out of the bottom circle losing temporal fellowship. We become carnal when we sin. When we are outside the bottom circle any good deed we do is “dead works” and means nothing to God. It is impossible to grow spiritually while outside the bottom circle. While outside the bottom circle, we may get a dose of God’s discipline to motivate us to get back into the bottom circle.

We go back in the bottom circle and become spiritual (filled with the spirit) when we acknowledge our sins to God. While in the bottom circle all good deeds are Divine good , or fruits of the Spirit. While in the bottom circle we grow spiritually by learning God’s word.

Inside the bottom circle is “walking in the light”, outside the bottom circle is “walking in the dark”

 

[voltaire]

so the answer my question is yes. when this person is talking to God, God does not hear this person, nor does he hear his prayers. he is out of fellowship with God as long as he doesnt start blurting out a list of sins and forgiveness for them. SIR, that is absolutely ridiculous! it is a doctrine of demons. all sins were forgiven at the cross period. no believer has unforgiven sin in their life. so God doesnt fellowship with someone who has sin in their life? that is only correct for unforgiven sin. no believer has unforgiven sin PERIOD! there is a not a single believer who does not have sinful acts in their lives on a hourly basis. if you are correct then God is out of fellowship with 99% percent of christians 90% percent of the time! the only way that number could be lower is if everyone had sin consciousness all day and blurted out every thought they had minute by minute! that sir, is INSANE! you may be a christian Tet, but you are preaching doctrines of demons just like thousands of other pa

 

[voltaire]

Unfortunately what you preach is in line with what thousands of christians and pastors believe around the world. it is utter blasphemy! you can take your two circles theory and shove it straight to hell where it belongs. you cannot prove your out of fellowship theory nor your filling of the Spirit theory either. as of right now you are on ignore . i will press view post when i am curious, otherwise, consider yourself ignored.

 

[Door]

Jerry's false gospel of believers being in darkness has just been fully defeated.

Make sure if you read my latest entry that you read the verses that are linked.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry's false gospel of believers being in darkness has just been fully defeated.

Make sure if you read my latest entry that you read the verses that are linked.

Door's mistaken beliefs have been exposed.

Paul tells us that unbelievers are those who are in darkness, not believers, and that light has NO fellowship with darkness.

Paul also tells the Christian not to have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness:

" And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them" (Eph.5:11).​

This demonstrates that a Christian can in fact have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness. If the Christian has to be told not to have fellowship with these things of darkness then it follows that it is possible that they can indeed have fellowship with the things of darkness. And if a Christian can have fellowship with the works of darkness then it is certain that they can indeed have fellowship with darkness.

In His grace,
Jerry