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The virgin birth in Isaiah 7

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  • Nick M
    replied
    It isn't a sign to say a young woman will give birth. It is a sign to say a virgin will give birth. It is normal that a young woman would give birth. That isn't any kind of sign. Isaiah said a "virgin". The Holy Spirit chooses his words very carefully. It is only perverts that want to mess it up so they can shake their fist at God.

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  • Jacob
    replied
    Originally posted by Nick M View Post
    You can always prooftext. It isn't a sign to have a young woman will give birth. That would be normal. It would be a sign from heaven however if a virgin gives birth.

    Isaiah says a virgin.
    We read "virgin" in the English. My question has to do with the nature of the position that attempts to only take "Hebrew meaning" as has been presented.

    Read the passage again. There is a sign, and it may involve the woman but I think it is more about the land and what would happen by a particular time in regard to the boy growing up.

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  • Nick M
    replied
    Originally posted by Untellectual View Post
    I believe the word virgin here in the English is the same word that in Hebrew means young woman.
    You can always prooftext. It isn't a sign to have a young woman will give birth. That would be normal. It would be a sign from heaven however if a virgin gives birth.

    Isaiah says a virgin.

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  • Jacob
    replied
    Originally posted by Elia View Post
    Bs'd

    The Bible doesn't say.
    Would you say it is possible to have children and still be a virgin?
    Eliyahu

    Leave a comment:


  • Elia
    replied
    Originally posted by Untellectual View Post
    Interesting. But has this woman had a child before?
    Bs'd

    The Bible doesn't say.


    Eliyahu

    Leave a comment:


  • Jacob
    replied
    Originally posted by Elia View Post
    Bs'd

    Here I have a few Bible translations, and all of them translate in Isaiah 7:14 "almah" as "virgin". That is of course a mistake, because "almah" means "young woman", and not virgin, see here:

    https://sites.google.com/site/excell...ahtranslations


    Eliyahu
    Interesting. But has this woman had a child before?

    Leave a comment:


  • Elia
    replied
    Originally posted by Untellectual View Post
    Is Immanuel a land?

    Quote:

    Immanuel is a child, a son.

    Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.
    Bs'd

    Here I have a few Bible translations, and all of them translate in Isaiah 7:14 "almah" as "virgin". That is of course a mistake, because "almah" means "young woman", and not virgin, see here:

    https://sites.google.com/site/excell...ahtranslations


    Eliyahu

    Leave a comment:


  • Jacob
    replied
    Originally posted by Elia View Post
    Bs'd

    The punishment for seducing a unmarried virgin is not death, and no, it is not allowed, and yes, sometimes things which are not allowed happen anyway.
    If she cries out she isn't going to face death but he will. What happens if she does not cry out?

    Sorry, I may have mixed it up. We are speaking of different passages. The one I was thinking of is actually if the girl is engaged.

    Exodus 22:16 "If a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged, and lies with her, he must pay a dowry for her to be his wife.

    Exodus 22:17 "If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equal to the dowry for virgins.

    Deuteronomy 22:23 "If there is a girl who is a virgin engaged to a man, and another man finds her in the city and lies with her,

    Deuteronomy 22:24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city and you shall stone them to death; the girl, because she did not cry out in the city, and the man, because he has violated his neighbor's wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you.

    Deuteronomy 22:25 "But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die.

    Deuteronomy 22:26 "But you shall do nothing to the girl; there is no sin in the girl worthy of death, for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him, so is this case.

    Deuteronomy 22:27 "When he found her in the field, the engaged girl cried out, but there was no one to save her.

    Deuteronomy 22:28 "If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered,

    Deuteronomy 22:29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.
    Betulah means "virgin", and that is NOT used in Isaiah 7.

    Eliyahu
    Last edited by Jacob; January 30th, 2011, 02:25 PM.

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  • Elia
    replied
    Originally posted by Untellectual View Post
    Isn't the punishment supposed to be death? How then would it be allowed?
    Bs'd

    The punishment for seducing a unmarried virgin is not death, and no, it is not allowed, and yes, sometimes things which are not allowed happen anyway.

    Sorry, I guess I'm confused. The word I was thinking of is betulah.

    http://www.bible.gen.nz/amos/hebrew/beth/betulah.htm
    Betulah means "virgin", and that is NOT used in Isaiah 7.



    Eliyahu

    Leave a comment:


  • Jacob
    replied
    Originally posted by Elia View Post
    Bs'd

    Also in Israel.
    Isn't the punishment supposed to be death? How then would it be allowed?
    It would have been weird if you would have thought anything else when you have to rely on corrupted translations.

    But the verse says: "Behold the young woman IS pregnant and IS GIVING BIRTH to a son."

    See Youngs Literal Translation. His "virgin" is wrong, but his tenses are right: "Lo, the Virgin is conceiving, And is bringing forth a son,"

    There are many other words that start with a "B", see here: http://www.websters-online-dictionar...sh/Def/BA1.asp

    Eliyahu
    Sorry, I guess I'm confused. The word I was thinking of is betulah.

    http://www.bible.gen.nz/amos/hebrew/beth/betulah.htm

    Leave a comment:


  • Elia
    replied
    Originally posted by Untellectual View Post
    In Israel?
    Bs'd

    Also in Israel.

    I thought it was that she was to become pregnant.
    It would have been weird if you would have thought anything else when you have to rely on corrupted translations.

    But the verse says: "Behold the young woman IS pregnant and IS GIVING BIRTH to a son."

    See Youngs Literal Translation. His "virgin" is wrong, but his tenses are right: "Lo, the Virgin is conceiving, And is bringing forth a son,"

    So, she hadn't been pregnant before?!I think there is another word that starts with a 'B'?
    There are many other words that start with a "B", see here: http://www.websters-online-dictionar...sh/Def/BA1.asp



    Eliyahu

    Leave a comment:


  • Jacob
    replied
    Originally posted by Elia View Post
    Bs'd

    That is correct, THE damsel.

    The word almah has a ה before it, what makes it THE almah.

    But in a dictionary you won't find "THE almah", only "almah".

    By the way, "THE" almah indicates that both Isaiah and Achaz knew her, and that they were not speaking about a woman who would be born 700 years later.

    Your understanding is way to simplistic. Your understanding should be that young women in those days COULD be virgins.

    Also in those days young woman got seduced,
    In Israel?
    raped, and, in those days, girls were married of right before or at puberty. So this almah most likely was married,
    I thought it was that she was to become pregnant. So, she hadn't been pregnant before?!
    this because of the fact that she was pregnant.
    I think there is another word that starts with a 'B'?
    Eliyahu

    Leave a comment:


  • Elia
    replied
    Originally posted by Untellectual View Post
    It looks like a different word than "almah".

    הָעַלְמָה
    e·olme
    the·damsel
    Bs'd

    That is correct, THE damsel.

    The word almah has a ה before it, what makes it THE almah.

    But in a dictionary you won't find "THE almah", only "almah".

    By the way, "THE" almah indicates that both Isaiah and Achaz knew her, and that they were not speaking about a woman who would be born 700 years later.

    My understanding is that young women were virgins back then.
    Your understanding is way to simplistic. Your understanding should be that young women in those days COULD be virgins.

    Also in those days young woman got seduced, raped, and, in those days, girls were married of right before or at puberty. So this almah most likely was married, this because of the fact that she was pregnant.


    Eliyahu

    Leave a comment:


  • Jacob
    replied
    Originally posted by Elia View Post
    The Hebrew word is "almah", and here you can see what it means:

    http://www.milon.co.il/general/gener...9C%D7%9E%D7%94

    You can also look here in this Hebrew interlinear and see what it means in the translation right under the Hebrew word: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...OTpdf/isa7.pdf
    It looks like a different word than "almah".

    הָעַלְמָה
    e·olme
    the·damsel
    So now you know what it means: "girl, young woman", and NOT virgin.
    My understanding is that young women were virgins back then.
    Now you also know how you are being lied to by corrupted translations.

    Eliyahu light unto the nations


    "Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

    "All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

    This message is sent to you from Mount Zion, Jerusalem, Israel.

    "From Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Y-H-W-H from Jerusalem." Isaiah 2:3, Micah 4:2

    Leave a comment:


  • Elia
    replied
    Originally posted by Untellectual View Post
    I believe the word virgin here in the English is the same word that in Hebrew means young woman.

    Isaiah 7:14 (KJV) Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

    Isaiah 7:14 (NASB) "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.
    Bs'd

    The vast majority of the English translations are hopelessly corrupted in Isaiah 7:14. Here is the footnote of the Contemporary English Version, who says "virgin" there:
    Isaiah 7:14 virgin: Or "young woman." In this context the difficult Hebrew word did not imply a virgin birth. However, in the Greek translation made about 200 (B.C. )and used by the early Christians, the word parthenos had a double meaning. While the translator took it to mean "young woman," Matthew understood it to mean "virgin" and quoted the passage (Matthew 1.23) because it was the appropriate description of Mary, the mother of Jesus.

    They do admit it doesn't imply a virgin birth, but they still mistranslate it as such.

    Revised Standard Version: "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el."

    New World Translation: "Therefore J-e-h-o-v-a-h himself will give YOU men a sign: Look! The maiden herself will actually become pregnant, and she is giving birth to a son, and she will certainly call his name Im·man´u·el."

    The Hebrew word is "almah", and here you can see what it means:

    http://www.milon.co.il/general/gener...9C%D7%9E%D7%94

    You can also look here in this Hebrew interlinear and see what it means in the translation right under the Hebrew word: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...OTpdf/isa7.pdf

    Don't look on the side, because that has the corrupted KJV.

    Also in google translate you can see what "almah" means:

    http://translate.google.com/?hl=en&i...9C%D7%9E%D7%94

    Here is websters online dictionary for "almah": http://www.websters-online-dictionar...&sa=Search#922

    So now you know what it means: "girl, young woman", and NOT virgin.

    Now you also know how you are being lied to by corrupted translations.



    Eliyahu light unto the nations


    "Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

    "All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

    This message is sent to you from Mount Zion, Jerusalem, Israel.

    "From Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Y-H-W-H from Jerusalem." Isaiah 2:3, Micah 4:2

    Leave a comment:

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