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The virgin birth in Isaiah 7

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  • freelight
    replied
    Originally posted by Letsargue View Post
    It doesn’t matter what some man says on his own, and just because you support him, has nothing to do with (( What we do have ))!!
    Its not just some man, its a thorough objective analysis of the text itself. Until you honestly examine the papers, and do even more research, your view remains imperfect, no matter how sincere your 'faith' is in your 'belief'.

    If God has allowed us to receive something that cannot be depended on 100%, then there’s no way God can condemn anyone!!
    You're assuming the bible as a collection of books is inerrant untainted without human imperfections, but that is a long shot. Dependence on a vigilent intelligence ever researching and learning is a more honorable endeavor than settling for such archaic assumptions.

    If you’re right, then there is nothing that can be trusted to be the Truth!! – I’ll stick with what (( has been given us to have, and to trust ))!!!
    Thats an unnecessary assumption. Truth is what actually exists, what is always already the case, the total reality of existence itself, as it IS. Your belief in the Bible or any other collection of books for that matter (whatever your religious persuasion) is a relative assessment, assumed to be 'true' by whatever criteria you've accepted. Again, reality is what actually, essentially and fundamentally exists as that which subsumes and pervades All That Is......what is unborn, undying, eternal, inifinite.

    – You all can trust anything that fits your own doctrine. – I’m sure every false ~christian~ can find something somewhere that they will follow in part!! There is no one who ( can follow that which is the Christ )!!!
    Again, back to point of view. Granted, its hard not to invest one's own egoic interpretation of anything that serves one's own conceptions, but there is a more original truth that is even prior to religious theory or conceived theology,....that which is 'absolute reality' itself. That is prior to any concept, mental construct or assumption, being wholly pure, existential, infinite and omnipresent.

    It is just as well that Mother Mary is a 'virgin' meaning pure, virtuous, holy, innocent, unstained....whereby she surrendered herself to the service of God. That is all that is essential.


    pj

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  • Letsargue
    replied
    Originally posted by freelight View Post
    I already gave you access to at least 2 articles(pdfs) by Uri Yoseph thoroughly covering the translation issues of the particular passage, so one could weigh the evidences for translating the word in question as 'virgin'. If you'd like to address any particular points, you're welcome to engage. You're apparently unaware of the problems involved, having not read the facts (the words being used, Septuagint factors, reliance on available texts, translation-issues from one language to another, etc.) Ignorance is a choice in this matter, but suit yourself.


    pj

    It doesn’t matter what some man says on his own, and just because you support him, has nothing to do with (( What we do have ))!!

    If God has allowed us to receive something that cannot be depended on 100%, then there’s no way God can condemn anyone!!
    If you’re right, then there is nothing that can be trusted to be the Truth!! – I’ll stick with what (( has been given us to have, and to trust ))!!! – You all can trust anything that fits your own doctrine. – I’m sure every false ~christian~ can find something somewhere that they will follow in part!! There is no one who ( can follow that which is the Christ )!!!

    Paul – 071312

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  • Jacob
    replied
    Originally posted by freelight View Post
    I already gave you access to at least 2 articles(pdfs) by Uri Yoseph thoroughly covering the translation issues of the particular passage, so one could weigh the evidences for translating the word in question as 'virgin'. If you'd like to address any particular points, you're welcome to engage. You're apparently unaware of the problems involved, having not read the facts (the words being used, Septuagint factors, reliance on available texts, translation-issues from one language to another, etc.) Ignorance is a choice in this matter, but suit yourself.


    pj
    I think he is asking if you believe the correlation being drawn between the two verses is legitimate.

    Leave a comment:


  • freelight
    replied
    hello?

    Originally posted by Letsargue View Post
    Isaiah 7:14 KJV – (((((( Therefore )))))) the (( Lord himself shall give you a sign )); (( Behold, a virgin shall conceive )), ( and bear a son ), and shall call his name Immanuel--&-- Matthew 1:23 KJV –

    How many (( times )) does God have to say something that is (( Truth ))?? – Find any Word anywhere in the scriptures that contradicts with those Words, and you will have found the ( first contradiction ) that cannot be overcome!!! – Prove it!! --- How can you guys teach such contradictions, and call it the Truth???


    Come on freelight, stay with me this time!!

    Paul – 071312

    I already gave you access to at least 2 articles(pdfs) by Uri Yoseph thoroughly covering the translation issues of the particular passage, so one could weigh the evidences for translating the word in question as 'virgin'. If you'd like to address any particular points, you're welcome to engage. You're apparently unaware of the problems involved, having not read the facts (the words being used, Septuagint factors, reliance on available texts, translation-issues from one language to another, etc.) Ignorance is a choice in this matter, but suit yourself.


    pj

    Leave a comment:


  • Letsargue
    replied
    Originally posted by freelight View Post
    Covered Here

    Do your homework.

    Besides the grammatical issues, translation-transfers and proper context of said passage....can you prove Jesus was born of a virgin beyond only a few verses in 2 gospels (only one of those specifically referring to Is. 7:14), and your religious belief that every word in the NT is somehow the word of God? - such only complicate matters.



    That appears to be the missing link here - "learning".

    Again, look at all the facts and then understand that you have to ignore certain of those and cling to a religious belief (traditionally imposed or self-preferred) to cling to such. There may not be harm in the belief, however thats 'explained', but its best to be thoroughly informed on the subject from all possible points of view, instead of swallowing it hook, line and sinker. And this intends no disrespect to Jesus, it only knocks over a few sacred cows and may upset the applecart for some. Virgin births of divine god-men are not unique to Christianity, but thats another chapter




    pj

    Isaiah 7:14 KJV – (((((( Therefore )))))) the (( Lord himself shall give you a sign )); (( Behold, a virgin shall conceive )), ( and bear a son ), and shall call his name Immanuel--&-- Matthew 1:23 KJV –

    How many (( times )) does God have to say something that is (( Truth ))?? – Find any Word anywhere in the scriptures that contradicts with those Words, and you will have found the ( first contradiction ) that cannot be overcome!!! – Prove it!! --- How can you guys teach such contradictions, and call it the Truth???


    Come on freelight, stay with me this time!!

    Paul – 071312

    Leave a comment:


  • freelight
    replied
    learn.......

    Originally posted by Letsargue View Post
    You can never prove that!!! - You may find one or two verses that sound like a contradiction but (( IT AIN'T ))!!! - The Whole / God / Truth / Jesus / Christ says "Virgin Birth"!!!

    Paul -- 071312

    Covered Here

    Do your homework.

    Besides the grammatical issues, translation-transfers and proper context of said passage....can you prove Jesus was born of a virgin beyond only a few verses in 2 gospels (only one of those specifically referring to Is. 7:14), and your religious belief that every word in the NT is somehow the word of God? - such only complicate matters.

    The unlearned may say (( Anything ))!! ---- Listen to them!!!
    That appears to be the missing link here - "learning".

    Again, look at all the facts and then understand that you have to ignore certain of those and cling to a religious belief (traditionally imposed or self-preferred) to cling to such. There may not be harm in the belief, however thats 'explained', but its best to be thoroughly informed on the subject from all possible points of view, instead of swallowing it hook, line and sinker. And this intends no disrespect to Jesus, it only knocks over a few sacred cows and may upset the applecart for some. Virgin births of divine god-men are not unique to Christianity, but thats another chapter




    pj

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  • Ktoyou
    replied
    Thank you very much!

    Leave a comment:


  • Letsargue
    replied
    Originally posted by Ktoyou View Post
    Yes, so why are you wasting it? have you not been here long enough to know? Does Knight have to keep asking a simple request? So do not quote long full posts, when they are meaningless to you, unless you take them to task piece, by piece.

    OK!! - I haven't seen that request, but will adhere to it as much as is possible.

    Paul -- 071312

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  • Ktoyou
    replied
    Originally posted by Letsargue View Post
    ((((((( Wasted space again )))))))!!!
    Paul -- 071312
    Yes, so why are you wasting it? have you not been here long enough to know? Does Knight have to keep asking a simple request? So do not quote long full posts, when they are meaningless to you, unless you take them to task piece, by piece.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ktoyou
    replied
    Originally posted by Buckeroo View Post
    I really do not understand what you are getting at?? Also the Word said that Mary she shall be called Blessed in all the world,so what is it you are saying? Thank You! Blessings and Peace!
    Why care to debate another faith? Why is she here, instead of worshiping at temple? I do not debate with those of other faiths, at least those who wish to push their faith on me, as that is an insecurity.

    Please, summarize, a few lines, not the full text, when it is that long, as it wastes web space.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ktoyou
    replied
    Originally posted by Elia View Post
    Bs'd

    No Christian any comment on this one?

    Everybody agrees I'm right and the gospel is wrong?



    Eliyahu light unto the nations


    "Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

    "All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

    This message is sent to you from Mount Zion, Jerusalem, Israel.

    "From Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Y-H-W-H from Jerusalem." Isaiah 2:3, Micah 4:2
    No, I see you are Jewish and I am a Christian. Now how long has the difference been known? What are you saying that has not been said? Nothing.

    Well maybe BS'd

    Leave a comment:


  • Letsargue
    replied
    Originally posted by freelight View Post
    ~*~*~

    Hi all, I've addressed this issue again in Traditios thread 'Apparent Scriptural Proof against the Virgin Birth Here.

    It remains only the assumption of traditional/orthodox Christianity that Jesus somehow had to be born of a virgin to affect any benefit to mankind, even though this was never an original Jewish teaching or expetectation of their Messiah.


    pj


    You can never prove that!!! - You may find one or two verses that sound like a contradiction but (( IT AIN'T ))!!! - The Whole / God / Truth / Jesus / Christ says "Virgin Birth"!!! -- The unlearned may say (( Anything ))!! ---- Listen to them!!!

    Paul -- 071312

    Leave a comment:


  • Letsargue
    replied
    Originally posted by Elia View Post
    Bs'd

    The prophecy of Isaiah 7:

    1: In the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, son of Uzzi'ah, king of Judah, Rezin the king of Syria and Pekah the son of Remali'ah the king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to wage war against it, but they could not conquer it. 2: When the house of David was told, "Syria is in league with E'phraim," his heart and the heart of his people shook as the trees of the forest shake before the wind. 3: And the LORD said to Isaiah, "Go forth to meet Ahaz, you and She'ar-jash'ub your son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool on the highway to the Fuller's Field, 4: and say to him, `Take heed, be quiet, do not fear, and do not let your heart be faint because of these two smoldering stumps of firebrands, at the fierce anger of Rezin and Syria and the son of Remali'ah. 5: Because Syria, with E'phraim and the son of Remali'ah, has devised evil against you, saying, 6: "Let us go up against Judah and terrify it, and let us conquer it for ourselves, and set up the son of Ta'be-el as king in the midst of it," 7: thus says the Lord GOD: It shall not stand, and it shall not come to pass.
    8: For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin. (Within sixty-five years E'phraim will be broken to pieces so that it will no longer be a people.) 9: And the head of E'phraim is Sama'ria, and the head of Sama'ria is the son of Remali'ah. If you will not believe, surely you shall not be established.'" 10: Again the LORD spoke to Ahaz,
    11: "Ask a sign of the LORD your God; let it be deep as Sheol or high as heaven." 12: But Ahaz said, "I will not ask, and I will not put the LORD to the test." 13: And he said, "Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary men, that you weary my God also? 14: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el. 15: He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16: For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted."

    We see here in Isaiah 7, that king Achaz, the king of Judah, is afraid of 2 neighboring kings.
    It is important to know that after the death of king Solomo the kingdom of Israel split up into two parts; into the kingdom of Judah, and the kingdom of Israel.
    The kingdom om Judah was made up of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and a part of the Levites. The kingdom of Israel was made up of the other ten tribes.
    Achaz was king over Judah, and in this prophecy the king of Israel is Pekah, the son of Remaliah.
    And Pekah had made a covenant with the king of Syria, called Resin, to attack together the kingdom of Judah.
    This news caused king Achaz considerable stress, because he had a dark suspicion that things could very well turn out not so very rosy for him.
    Therefore God sent Isaiah to Achaz, in order to tell him that things would work out just fine for him. God tells Achaz that he will give him a sign. Here is the sign: "14: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el. 15: He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16: For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted."

    God says that before the child of the young woman who is pregnant will grow up, the land of the two kings, Resin of Syria, and Pekah of Israel, will be deserted, that is devoid of people. Those two nations will be led into exile.
    So this is a sign for king Achaz, who lived about 700 years before JC.

    And the Bible tells us that this prophecy came true: "27: In the fifty-second year of Azari'ah king of Judah Pekah the son of Remali'ah began to reign over Israel in Sama'ria, and reigned twenty years. 28: And he did what was evil in the sight of the LORD; he did not depart from the sins of Jerobo'am the son of Nebat, which he made Israel to sin. 29: In the days of Pekah king of Israel Tig'lath-pile'ser king of Assyria came and captured I'jon, A'bel-beth-ma'acah, Jan-o'ah, Kedesh, Hazor, Gilead, and Galilee, all the land of Naph'tali; and he carried the people captive to Assyria. 30: Then Hoshe'a the son of Elah made a conspiracy against Pekah the son of Remali'ah, and struck him down, and slew him, and reigned in his stead, in the twentieth year of Jotham the son of Uzzi'ah."
    II Kings 15.

    We see here that the population of Israel indeed went into exile, and that the land of king Pekah was deserted.

    And here is what happened to Resin, the king of Syria:
    "6: At that time the king of Edom recovered Elath for Edom, and drove the men of Judah from Elath; and the E'domites came to Elath, where they dwell to this day. 7: So Ahaz sent messengers to Tig'lath-pile'ser king of Assyria, saying, "I am your servant and your son. Come up, and rescue me from the hand of the king of Syria and from the hand of the king of Israel, who are attacking me." 8: Ahaz also took the silver and gold that was found in the house of the LORD and in the treasures of the king's house, and sent a present to the king of Assyria. 9: And the king of Assyria hearkened to him; the king of Assyria marched up against Damascus, and took it, carrying its people captive to Kir, and he killed Rezin."
    II Kings 16.

    So here we see that also the inhabitants of the land of King Resin went into exile, and also his land was deserted, in the days of Achaz.

    So God gave a sign to Achaz.

    In the days of Achaz.

    About 700 years before JC.

    So this prophecy has no bearing what so ever on the messiah, and NOWHERE in this prophecy is spoken about a virgin.

    These are only misconceptions of the NT.

    However, the NT brings this prophecy to Achaz as a messianic prophecy, see Matthew 1 "21: she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." 22: All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: 23: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel".

    So what the NT does here, is take a text which does not speak about the messiah, rip it out of context, mistranslates it, (is says "young woman", and not "virgin") and then present it to us as a messianic prophecy.

    So one of the foundations of the Christian religion, the virgin birth, is based upon a mistranslated text which is ripped out of context and does NOT speak about the messiah.


    Eliyahu light unto the nations


    "Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

    "All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

    This message is sent to you from Mount Zion, Jerusalem, Israel.

    "From Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of God from Jerusalem." Isaiah 2:3, Micah 4:2

    ((((((( Wasted space again )))))))!!!

    What's your problem with the Word of God??? - It says what it says, and you have a (( Question )) against it??? - ((( Sounds normal today )))!!

    Paul -- 071312

    Leave a comment:


  • freelight
    replied
    Virgin territory......

    ~*~*~

    Hi all, I've addressed this issue again in Traditios thread 'Apparent Scriptural Proof against the Virgin Birth Here.

    It remains only the assumption of traditional/orthodox Christianity that Jesus somehow had to be born of a virgin to affect any benefit to mankind, even though this was never an original Jewish teaching or expetectation of their Messiah.


    pj

    Leave a comment:


  • dave3712
    replied
    Originally posted by Elia View Post

    Eliyahu light unto the nations


    "Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

    "All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

    This message is sent to you from Mount Zion, Jerusalem, Israel.

    "From Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Y-H-W-H from Jerusalem." Isaiah 2:3, Micah 4:2
    These verse confounded the Jews in the past and even today they are confused simply because they failed to see the Logic in what Jesus was saying and the rational of Trinity.

    This stems from the faailure to define G-d before Jesus did so for us in 32AD.
    The jews to this day will admit that for them, the definition of G-d is ineffable.
    It is too complex a concept for their predeccessors to have stated in words.
    The Jews still claim find themselves incapable of expressing in words their understanding of G-d.

    Jesus defined the Father of all creation for us when he said he was the son of this entity, and he personified as the Christ the concept of Truth as the light into the world which saves man from the second death, the extinction of his whole species.
    It is Truth that can abd will lead mankind to adapt to the ways of this God that reigns over the Realities within which we are trapped.

    What Jesus was telling the Jews in 32Ad wa that Truth is the mental spirit of mind that images Reality.
    What Jesus was telling them was that Truth is the spirit lkike thoughts which mediate between man and the god of this Reality wwhich represents the creator in and by his creation.

    What Jesus was saying takes the form of a syllogism of logical definitions:


    LOGICAL SYLLOGISM:

    A) Christ is Truth, (personified).
    B) Truth must correspond congruently to Reality.
    C) Reality is congruent to Truth as Christ is congruent to God.



    Trinity becomes clear since for man, Truth is his only access to the conception of the external RealityMan can not tell one from the other.

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