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  • #31
    Originally posted by drbrumley View Post
    The difference is we literally have no way of knowing short of HIM telling us.
    Which is not an option for anyone seeking actual *proof* ...

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    • #32
      Originally posted by eveningsky339 View Post
      God created time. Where there is no time, there is no beginning. Simple quantum physics. :P

      By definition, God didn't come from anywhere. He is Logos.
      Time is not a created thing. Endless time has no beginning but it is sequence, nonetheless. Duration is not a thing you can put under a microscope or analyze in the lab or perceive with the senses.

      Issues before creation are not related to physics. The triune God experiences duration even before matter and physics. A personal being must think, act, feel in sequence, not in one timeless simultaneity.
      Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

      They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
      I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

      Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

      "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

      The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Persephone66 View Post
        I haven't been proven wrong yet.
        You plan on waiting like George Carlin did? He expects you to confess him before men first. A little humility. You won't even get a drip for your tongue to quench the burn.
        Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

        Titus 1

        For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

        Ephesians 5

        11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

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        • #34
          Originally posted by This Charming Manc View Post
          Ok I think I get what you saying, but its close to a how mnay needles can sit on the head of a needle distinction. Y

          You wouldnt have na issue with God is not bound by time ?

          here is the question though does God encounter time or does time encounter God?
          What?

          What does the Bible say, instead of a tired atheist based cliche with no meaning. Genesis 1 says in the begining, God created the heavens and the earth. So before he did that....
          Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

          Titus 1

          For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

          Ephesians 5

          11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by eveningsky339 View Post
            God created time. Where there is no time, there is no beginning. Simple quantum physics. :P
            Here is physics' problem when it comes to time: no evidence, whatsoever, that time is a thing/dimension. None. At least evolution has evidence. And before you bite my head off, evidence is not always proof. So, no, there is no proof for evolution.

            God did not create time. Time is an attribute of existence. And since God has always existed there has always been time.

            But if you want to continue to believe God created time, how about you tell us when He decided to create it...

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            • #36
              the Infinity of God beyond measure

              Originally posted by godrulz View Post
              Time is not a created thing. Endless time has no beginning but it is sequence, nonetheless. Duration is not a thing you can put under a microscope or analyze in the lab or perceive with the senses.

              Issues before creation are not related to physics. The triune God experiences duration even before matter and physics. A personal being must think, act, feel in sequence, not in one timeless simultaneity.
              Some of the 'endless time' and 'eternal now' contests are semantics(touching various philosophical and metaphysical logics) in some respects as we've explored before. We can theorize 'endless time' as well as an 'eternal simultaneous NOW', each within their own logic-references and 'contexts'. We may figure 'endless duration of existence', as well as God existing in an eternal NOW...for both are true (from their own vector-points). There is always and forever the reality of 'now'....for all eternity.

              Again,...many dimensional aspects to these issues. God has both existed for an 'eternity of time' as well as has forever existed as a 'simultaneous ISness of Pure BEING'. God's Isness is Eternal. His I AM-ness is always present. 'God' in His Pure Indefinity is always beyond definition or measurement, being an eternal infinity and infinite eternity...so that aspects of His Being are both within and without time. - back to nuance, dimension and perspective. All space/time creation and dimensions arise within God, He contains them while remaining Himself uncontainable.


              pj


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              • #37
                Originally posted by Mac_guy View Post
                So we get that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."


                How did God come to be "In the beginning"?
                How can God come to be when He is the One the Is and Was and Will be. You see God Was before the beginning of the universe. God is infinite, no beginning and no end. YHVH said to Moses " Say that I Am". That should be good enough.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by freelight View Post
                  Again,...many dimensional aspects to these issues. God has both existed for an 'eternity of time' as well as has forever existed as a 'simultaneous ISness of Pure BEING'. God's Isness is Eternal. His I AM-ness is always present. 'God' in His Pure Indefinity is always beyond definition or measurement, being an eternal infinity and infinite eternity...so that aspects of His Being are both within and without time. - back to nuance, dimension and perspective. All space/time creation and dimensions arise within God, He contains them while remaining Himself uncontainable.


                  pj
                  i try to understand god, but it's too big of a thing for me.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by godrulz View Post
                    A personal being must think, act, feel in sequence, not in one timeless simultaneity.
                    does GOD think, act, feel in a timeless simultaneity?

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by drbrumley View Post
                      Look Manc, whether anything was around or not, whether God was around or not, there is still time. Say there was nothing ever created, time as you call it would still exist. Time is only a measurement we use, since God created created for us ways to tell time.
                      In essence time is 'the measurement of change' for time to exist in any meaningful way change needs to exists.

                      Seeing as the Godhead does not change and is eternal time does not exist before the created world.

                      The concept that time is everlasting is not one taught in scipture, and if you see God as subject to time you see him as subject to the universe and lord over the universe.
                      SJKW Extraordinaire

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by godrulz View Post
                        There are two major theories about time: A and B theory. A theory relates to endless time (presentism), while B theory relates more to timelessness (eternalism). They are mutually exclusive views with only one being right. I think it is more than theoretical or academic, but has practical implications to God and creation.

                        Just because God experiences duration rather than simultaneity does not mean He is limited by time like we are. He is not bound by time, but it is an aspect of His personal experience.

                        I am not sure how to answer your last question.
                        I most happy to cede that God experiences and interacts with time, but I struggle with the conepts that God is bound within the linear timeframe as we are.

                        The concept we call Time to me is part of the created universe, and as such God is pre eminent to it in everyway.

                        I may be misunderstanding you, but the caution I have with the stand you are taking is its tendencey to see time as a law that affects God and something he is subject too.
                        SJKW Extraordinaire

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by journaler View Post
                          i try to understand god, but it's too big of a thing for me.
                          This is why we need revelation in His Word, the Bible. We can know many things about His attributes and character, even if only partial knowledge (but sufficient to have relationship with Him).
                          Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                          They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                          I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                          Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                          "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                          The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by journaler View Post
                            does GOD think, act, feel in a timeless simultaneity?
                            It is incoherent for a personal being to not think, act, feel in sequence. God can have new thoughts and experiences (He would not if it was a timeless, eternal now simultaneity). Eternal now is a philosophical construct that is not biblical nor coherent. What God thought and did in Genesis was before the things experienced in the incarnation. This is the way it is, not an illusion because God cannot communicate eternal now.

                            God said creation was very good. After the Fall, He was grieved. This change would not be genuine if it was a simultaneity. There is chronology. God has a history.
                            Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                            They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                            I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                            Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                            "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                            The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Hi Mac_guy,

                              Originally posted by Mac_guy View Post
                              How did God come to be "In the beginning"?
                              Excellent question! This is the question that disposes of the God hypothesis in one easy step.

                              If you wish to use God to explain why the Universe exists you are then left with an even more difficult question. Having posited a supernatural being as the explanation for the Universe and all its denizens, which we actually can see, feel, taste, smell and think about ... we must then explain why an even more wondrous thing exists for which there is no evidence whatsoever.

                              Regards,

                              Marcus
                              TOL is biased towards the truth - learn to deal with it.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Lighthouse View Post
                                Here is physics' problem when it comes to time: no evidence, whatsoever, that time is a thing/dimension. None. At least evolution has evidence. And before you bite my head off, evidence is not always proof. So, no, there is no proof for evolution.
                                Within the bounds of Creation time is a measurement of change and movement. If change and movement exist then time exists.

                                God did not create time. Time is an attribute of existence. And since God has always existed there has always been time.
                                It is an attribute of existence within the Creation. In other words existence as you know it. This is a faulty premise to base a judgment on in regards to the existence of the ALMIGHTY.

                                But if you want to continue to believe God created time, how about you tell us when He decided to create it...
                                In the Beginning....
                                Destroy another fetus now, we don't like children anyhow, I've seen the future baby......... It is Murder.
                                ~Leonard Cohen

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                                “If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
                                ~Dalai Lama XIV

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