One on One: A Reasonable Dialogue - Sozo and godrulz

[godrulz]

So then, it is only in our hearts and minds that there is any "barrier" between us and God if (as you say) we sin? Is that correct?

I am asking you to please refrain from preaching. Let's stick to one thing at a time. If you prefer to go over specific textual verses, then I will be happy to go that direction. I just want to know where you stand on the issue of your behavior (whether good or bad) and it's effects on your relationship with God.

I'm not. Try to stay focused on one thing at a time, please.

Love and relating are not behaviors?

I may need clarification to answer more specifically. What you have in mind for the question may not be what I think you mean.

The wages of sin is death. Sin separates. God is holy. If I fail to tithe, so what (behavior)? If I fail to go to church, so what (behavior). If I am actively commiting adultery, guilt will affect myself, my relationship with spouse (lying and cheating), and my relationship with God. Without holiness, no one will see the Lord. It is more than subjective guilt or pseudo (false) guilt. The fact that the Holy Spirit convicts a person with the Word shows that there is a breach in intimacy in our relationship with a holy God (who can be grieved and quenched by our sin), yet the relationship is not severed (adultery is not godless unbelief).

The exact degree or nature of this is not explictly revealed.

I am not sure what you mean by behavior. E.g.? We have a will to act, a mind to think, and emotions to feel. Many things could be called 'behavior', but they do not make us right with God nor separated absolutely from God.

[Sozo]

I may need clarification to answer more specifically. What you have in mind for the question may not be what I think you mean.

I'm beginning to think that the word "reasonable" may need to be clarified.

Reasonable:

Capable of reasoning; rational: a reasonable person.
Governed by or being in accordance with reason or sound thinking: a reasonable solution to the problem.
Being within the bounds of common sense
Not excessive or extreme; fair

godrulz, work with me here. Please stop over-analyzing my questions.

You said...

If you mean can our sense of closeness to God be hindered by volitional sin, I think so. The enemy uses our guilt (like Adam's) to put a sense of separation and barrier between us and God where we hide instead of run to the Father heart of God.

In which I asked...

So then, it is only in our hearts and minds that there is any "barrier" between us and God if (as you say) we sin? Is that correct?

Clarification:

You appeared to be suggesting that "volitional sin" ( a willful decision to sin), causes "separation" and puts a "barrier" between us and God solely through "guilt".

Is that true? Yes or No?

You repeat this same suggestion in your follow-up post...

If I am actively commiting adultery, guilt will affect myself, my relationship with spouse (lying and cheating), and my relationship with God.

Let's try to stay on topic, godrulz. (I've forgotten your first name, but my name is Dave, if you want to use it).

I want to discuss the relationship/fellowship issue with God, not others, at this point.

For clarification, let's use the word fellowship to refer to communication with God (prayer; an unhindered ability to go directly to God about anything).

Let's use the word relationship to refer to a severing of any access to God. In fact, it would mean that the person is completely and eternally separated from God. The relationship is ended.

Therefore, I am assuming that you would suggest that the fellowship is hindered by guilt in the last quote. Is that correct? In other words, because you have a sense of guilt for choosing willfully to sin, you choose not to fellowship with God? Is that correct? From your understanding, it is not God who chooses to break fellowship, but you. Is that what you are saying?

I will get to more of your previous post as soon as we come to some agreement on the above. Please try to just address the questions without adding any theology to your points. I just want to know in the simplest of terms what happens when you sin between you and God, not everyone else.

Thanks!

Your soon to be restored friend (I hope),

Dave

[godrulz]

Dave? You don't look like a Dave? William (Bill before my mid-life crisis).

Using your terms (I think), one sin does not sever the relationship forever. When my wife or kids and I fight, we are still family members, but our communication may break down (whether offender or offended). When King David sinned (I know he was not 'born again'), we see his feelings in Ps. 32; 51. They are an expression of a sinful heart before a holy God. David's sin affected his intimacy with God, but did not sever the relationship. Whether this was subjective to David alone, or there was a sense that God 'lifted' the closeness of His presence is debatable. Upon confession and repentance, there was restored intimacy. Is this not what happens in our human relationships? When I am out of sorts with my family, I withdraw, they withdraw, there is anger, hurt, frustration, etc. Naturally, God is not fickle like us. He remains faithful even when we blow it. He urges us to approach His throne of grace in time of need. We have an advocate, a mediator in Christ (Heb. 4).

Some people can chose to fellowship with God despite their sin. It is not like God covers His ears. He is a Father, not a baby. Ideally, we should remain vulnerable and open with God. Practically, many people are oppressed by their guilt and the accuser of the brethren. Does not Hebrews 12 about God disciplining His disobedient children in love for our good have relevant principles?

So, I think we can agree that one sin does not sever the relationship with God. I am not sure if we agree that (I know you do not think Christians sin...so play along) a believer who blows it might feel as if the heaven's are brass from personal guilt, if nothing else. God wants us to deal with what would hurt us and grieve His holy heart (hence the biblical steps of confession, repentance, renewed obedience). He loves us too much to leave us in our unChristlike situation. His holiness will not be mocked.

Is belief really divorced from behavior? He wants us to be holy even as He is holy (Peter)...not just in theory, but in practice (Paul did not divorce doctrine from practical living).

If I keep talking, I will open up friction points, I am sure.

Perhaps give me a well thought out sentence and I will respond in a word or two. I ramble because I do not think there is a simplistic answer to your good questions.

[Sozo]

[godrulz]

Oh oh...what have I done now?

I know human relationships are analagous, not identical. I am just trying to share generic principles to try to illustrate things. I would not read too much or too little into it and ask for clarification if my ramblings are off base.

If the simple question is worded right, I should be able to answer it with a simple sentence or two.


I suspect you think I think behavior is the issue. I trust the issue is grace, faith, love. I also do not think Jesus divorced faith, love, and obedience (He explicitly linked the concepts). I love my wife, but I also demonstrate this love practically. Your children love you and God, and they demonstrate this with loving obedience in various ways, consistent with Scripture. If we say we love God and others, yet ignore them, do not worship God, do not serve others, etc., then we are not demonstrating this love. This does not mean the demonstration saves us, per se. It does mean our faith, love, and obedience is the real McCoy, not just a mind concept or hypocrisy.

[Sozo]

William...

What happens (literally) when you "sin" between you and God?

I don't want to hear about comparisons in earthly relationships. I ONLY want to know what YOU believe is the effect that your "sin" has on your fellowship/relationship with God.

[godrulz]

William...

What happens (literally) when you "sin" between you and God?

I don't want to hear about comparisons in earthly relationships. I ONLY want to know what YOU believe is the effect that your "sin" has on your fellowship/relationship with God.

From our subjective viewpoint, we experience what the Psalmist expresses in Ps. 32; 51... guilt, lack of intimacy, shame, sense of separation, etc. After repentance, he/we experience forgiveness, intimacy, fellowship, etc.

From God's perspective, He disciplines His children, those whom He loves (Heb. 12). The Spirit convicts us in order for us to confess/repent/renew obedience (I Jn. 5:11-13). This is part of being new creatures in Christ, putting aside the old for the new. We become Christ-like in reality, not just positionally. Sanctification has an initial positional element and a practical, progressive element as we mature until we are like Him fully when we see Him face to face (glorified).

Apart from godless unbelief, our sins do not destroy the relationship/salvation. They grieve a holy God, quench the Spirit, bring conviction for our good and His glory (Rom. 12:1,2...2 Cor. 7:2; I Peter 1:13-16; Rom. 6, etc.).

As far as what literally happens when we sin, Scripture is not explicit? I am talking about subjective feelings (hence the human analogies...family fights do not negate family membership, but strained relationships need a return to the former state) and the fact that God is holy, will not be mocked, and we reap what we sow (Gal.). The fact that there are negative consequences to sexual immorality shows that God does not just shrug it off, for our good. He calls us to obedience (this is an expression of love, not works salvation or self-righteousness).

Sin, by nature, separates (ask the Psalmist). We can approach His throne of grace with boldness in our time of need because of Christ. There is provision. He loves us too much and is so holy that He does not wink at sin, which is destructive to ourselves and our relationships with others and God. The sense of separation (God does not move) is like the pain from touching a hot burner. It makes us long for God in a land where there is no water. It draws us to return to our first love on His righteous terms, not our selfish pursuit of independence.

My musings are not a precise theological, technical answer, because I would have to speculate in the absence of systematic proof texts. However, the basic statements are valid principles, the saints in OT and NT are instructive as to God's dealings with sinful man (2 Tim. 3:16; Heb. 11), and we could flesh it out more, but our presuppositions will slant our conclusions (if you think Christians cannot sin, literally, you will spin things different than I have).

Notice my emphasis is relational, not metaphysical, another paradigm issue.

[Sozo]

As far as what literally happens when we sin, Scripture is not explicit? I am talking about subjective feelings and the fact that God is holy, will not be mocked, and we reap what we sow (Gal.). The fact that there are negative consequences to sexual immorality shows that God does not just shrug it off, for our good. He calls us to obedience (this is an expression of love, not works salvation or self-righteousness).

Do you believe that what happens when a child of God "sins" is objective or subjective in their relationship/fellowship with God?

It appears that you are saying that it is both at the same time, which of course, is not a logical possibility.

Sin, by nature, separates

Does it? Is that what you believe? Does it separate you by your own "subjective feelings"? Or does it make you unholy?

As I have already asked, and you have ignored, let's put aside our theological preconceptions, and deal with this issue objectively from what the bible actually says.
God will not contradict the objective truth concerning the effects of sin. Don't you agree?

[godrulz]

To be on the safe side (since this seems academic to me and not something I think through daily), can it be both/and, not either/or? From the Psalms and anecdote, their is a subjective element. I would distinguish pseudo-guilt (enemy is accuser of the brethren and will condemn us despite our sins being dealt with at conversion) from real guilt. Real guilt is when the Holy Spirit and Word convict us of wrong (sinful) thoughts, motives, acts, words. If someone commits adultery, the guilt is not subjective or pseudo. The Spirit will press in with conviction to bring godly repentance (not remorse...sorry we got caught...feel bad) and renewed obedience. I think this is defensible, but I can't write a thesis off the top of my head about the technical, objective, Godward issues.

It seems to me it was God who stated, in principle, that our sins have separated us from him. Look at the 1000s of verses in the Bible about sin and let me know what you conclude from God and man's perspective.

Time is wasting...go go...

I appreciate your reasonable tone and am trying to think things through without having a well formulated thesis since these are non-issues for my practical Christian living.

Sin bad. God good. Let's not sin. Let's love and obey God (Reader's Digest version).

[Sozo]

To be on the safe side (since this seems academic to me and not something I think through daily), can it be both/and, not either/or?

No, William, it cannot.

You must choose. Does God hold your "sin" into account, do both you and God hold it into account, or do you alone hold it into account?

Real guilt is when the Holy Spirit and Word convict us of wrong (sinful) thoughts, motives, acts, words. If someone commits adultery, the guilt is not subjective or pseudo.

The Holy Spirit does not bring about guilt (real or imagined). The Holy Spirit disciplines for the purpose of doing what is profitable for ourselves and those around us. God is not judging you for "sin", He judged Christ. The wages of sin is death, not guilt. You cannot have it both ways. Either God judges and condemns you for "sin", or He has judged His Son... once for all.

[godrulz]

Apart from a simplistic explanation, I will continue to maintain that a Christian can sin, the Holy Spirit convicts us if we sin, we should cease sinning and renew obedience, etc. The technical details and semantics, I am not sure about.

I would also distinguish justification issues and issues subsequent to conversion. There is provision for sin, past/present/future, but the application or appropriation of the provision does not take place before sin is actual (I am an Open Theist).

[Sozo]

Apart from a simplistic explanation, I will continue to maintain that a Christian can sin, the Holy Spirit convicts us if we sin, we should cease sinning and renew obedience, etc. The technical details and semantics, I am not sure about.

William, this thread is not NOW, nor has it ever been about whether or not a Christian can sin.

In fact, I have chosen for the sake of our discussion to agree that a Christian can sin.

You are being purposely obtuse. This is what you do everytime you are caught having to make a decision that contradicts all of your baseless theology.

I hope that others have taken the time to read this thread, so that there will be no doubt that you refuse to have a discussion about the gospel message, and instead are set on maintaining a false gospel that is contrary to all reason and biblical evidence.

[godrulz]

Whoa, bubbalooey.

I am trying to answer your questions to the best of my ability.

I am trying not to suspect you have a hidden agenda and are leading me into a trap that does not fairly represent what I believe.

I am not sure what you are looking for. I am stating basic things that most would not quibble about. I am not going into great detail, because I have not thought things through with your mindset since it is a non-issue. I refuse to be a legalist or an antinomian (lawless). I chose to affirm love and relationship principles, the truth between the extremes.

If I am not spilling the beans to your liking, keep trying by rephrasing or asking specific questions.

I have a medic student right now. I ask a simple question and I get the deer in the head lights look. What is obvious to me after 15 years is foreign to a rookie. I ask, rephrase, give hints, guide, etc....patiently...because sometimes it is the way I ask questions or the way I explain things that is the problem. Communication can get bogged down by a number of things.

I would welcome a third party opinion as to whether I am purposefully being obtuse. This is not my motive, to be sure.

Based on PMs about this thread or rep points, some feel I am being patient and precise (they commend, not condemn). I have not had negative feedback, except from you.

So, back to the bite size questions (sorry they can't be answered yes or no based on your previous propensity to think on a different wavelength than some of us).

Remember 2001 Space Odyssey? Before Hal the computer croaks, he says: "I'm afraid Dave (sozo)...my mind is going...I can feel it.."

Since I am not green with horns, please be patient or abandon ship.

[Sozo]

Whoa, bubbalooey.

If I am not spilling the beans to your liking, keep trying by rephrasing or asking specific questions.

Question 1 from Sozo...

So then, it is only in our hearts and minds that there is any "barrier" between us and God if (as you say) we sin? Is that correct?

Unanswered

Question 2...

You appeared to be suggesting that "volitional sin" ( a willful decision to sin), causes "separation" and puts a "barrier" between us and God solely through "guilt".

Is that true? Yes or No?

Unanswered

Question 3...

Fellowship is hindered by guilt. Is that correct?

Unanswered

Question 4...

Because you have a sense of guilt for choosing willfully to sin, you choose not to fellowship with God? Is that correct?

Unanswered

Question 5...

It is not God who chooses to break fellowship, but you. Is that what you are saying?

Unanswered

Question 6...

What happens (literally) when you "sin" between you and God?

Unanswered

Question 7...

Do you believe that what happens when a child of God "sins" is objective or subjective in their relationship/fellowship with God?

Unanswered

Question 8...

Does it (sin) separate you by your own "subjective feelings"? Or does it make you unholy?

Unanswered

Question 9...

God will not contradict the objective truth concerning the effects of sin. Don't you agree?

Unanswered

Question 10...

Does God hold your "sin" into account, do both you and God hold it into account, or do you alone hold it into account?

Unanswered

Whoever is "commending" you must be as obtuse as you are.

[godrulz]

I answered all of the questions with more principles than a yes/no answer. Given your propensity to misunderstand or misrepresent my views, yes/no is a vulnerable answer.

It is unfair to say I have not answered. e.g. obviously fellowship is affected by guilt, at least from the perspective of the one carrying guilt leading to avoidance...that is an answer and is in my post.

What is fair to say is that I did not answer with what you consider a right answer.

Now that I have commented on all your questions (not to your liking apparently) in the above posts, you can start again, one at a time, and I will risk giving a one sentence answer when possible.

You could also throw out more questions that I will comment on and then you can play the same game and say I did not answer to your liking.

In my mind, I thought I gave you food for thought. If I was not dogmatic on every point, I probably had not thought it through or did not consider it vital information.

Cat and mouse...who is who?