One on One: Tip toe through the TULIPs with docrob57 and Knight.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
docrob57 said:
I agree, we always need to evaluate tradition in light of Scripture, but to claim that we are not influenced by tradition is a little naive.
Uh... I never said that. Doc, I am pretty good at putting words in my own mouth, I don't need your help. ;)
 

docrob57

New member
Knight said:
I just don't see how you can agree with that statement when you have made statements like....Doc, you want to claim that God directs and orchestrates everything yet you also want to hold onto the idea that man has some willpower of his own. One of those concepts must be wrong, they cannot co-exist.

They can and do co-exist. Calvinists do not deny the existence of free will, however, they do define it differently than you do. From my perspective, men are free to do whatever evil they choose. They are by nature (not just predisposition or propensity) evil and they can do no other.

God is sovereign, and knows the free will choices that men will make, and everything else for that matter. That being the case, He is able to order things so that they occur in accordance with His will, by using the free will choices of men.

I have to work some but I will return later.
 

docrob57

New member
Knight said:
What does the following mean to you.....

And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. - Revelation 22:17

You can answer if you want, although to be honest the question is somewhat rhetorical. :D

The answer is that God implants the thrist.
 

docrob57

New member
Knight said:
You have never even made a case for the "T"! You claimed you did here , but all you really did was state what you think the "T" means which is really no news at all. :)

Doc, if you want to move to the "U" feel free.

I am very flexible at this point.

Okay, I think I actually understand what you are saying here!! Well there is progress. When I come back later, I will build a scriptural argument for Total Inability (or Depravity, whichever you like)

I guess the reason I didn't do that before, is that I am sure you are familiar with it, however, I will do it for all the viewers at home.

Finally, don't take offense that I said you were probably going to hell, some of my best friends are headed there without doubt!! :)
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
docrob57 said:
They can and do co-exist. Calvinists do not deny the existence of free will, however, they do define it differently than you do. From my perspective, men are free to do whatever evil they choose. They are by nature (not just predisposition or propensity) evil and they can do no other.
Knight's question #6 Has God predestined EVERY event, EVERY thought, EVERY - everything - in advance for all of history? YES or NO?

God is sovereign, and knows the free will choices that men will make, and everything else for that matter. That being the case, He is able to order things so that they occur in accordance with His will, by using the free will choices of men.
Doc, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but you are not a Calvinist. You are more of an Arminian. Were you aware of this? :freak:
 
Last edited:

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
docrob57 said:
Finally, don't take offense that I said you were probably going to hell, some of my best friends are headed there without doubt!! :)
Doc, let the record state I would never make that same claim of you.

You are offensive, divisive and unbrotherly. I think you should apologize and repent.
 

docrob57

New member
Knight said:
Doc, let the record state I would never make that same claim of you.

You are offensive, divisive and unbrotherly. I think you should apologize and repent.

Sorry that you feel that way, but in this case I will have to decline.
 

docrob57

New member
Knight said:
Knight's question #6 Has God predestined EVERY event, EVERY thought, EVERY - everything - in advance for all of history? YES or NO?

Doc, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but you are not a Calvinist. You are more of an Arminian. Were you aware of that? :freak:

Or perhaps, you really don't understand Calvinism that well. How would you explain this from the Westminster Confession? Are the authors of it Arminians too?

I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
docrob57 said:
Sorry that you feel that way, but in this case I will have to decline.
Again.... I believe in my heart and have confessed with my mouth that the Lord Jesus died for my sin and that He rose on the third day.
Knight's question #7 What gives you the right to assert that I am not saved? What is you rational (or defense) for such an assertion?
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
docrob57 said:
Or perhaps, you really don't understand Calvinism that well. How would you explain this from the Westminster Confession? Are the authors of it Arminians too?
Answering questions with irrelevant follow-up questions again? :rolleyes:

Knight's question #6 Has God predestined EVERY event, EVERY thought, EVERY - everything - in advance for all of history? YES or NO?
 

docrob57

New member
Knight said:
Answering questions with irrelevant follow-up questions again? :rolleyes:

Knight's question #6 Has God predestined EVERY event, EVERY thought, EVERY - everything - in advance for all of history? YES or NO?

Yes, I answered this by reference to the Westminster confession which I accept. I think I have answered that several times already, however, I admit that it may have been on different threads.
 

docrob57

New member
Knight said:
Again.... I believe in my heart and have confessed with my mouth that the Lord Jesus died for my sin and that He rose on the third day.
Knight's question #7 What gives you the right to assert that I am not saved? What is you rational (or defense) for such an assertion?

I did not assert that you are not saved. I said that I was concerned that you may not be, though I probably didn't say that very politely. However, as this is the home of the truthsmack, I felt it was appropriate.

The problem is that you attribute your belief and confession to yourself. Much worse, however, you also indicate that it is at least theoretically possible for someone to save himself due to what you see as the elimination of an inherited sin nature at the crucifixion. This belief renders the atonement a mere "nicety," something that we can use if we need it but not really necessary. That is the really bad part.
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
docrob57 said:
Yes, I answered this by reference to the Westminster confession which I accept. I think I have answered that several times already, however, I admit that it may have been on different threads.
Hmmmm lets see......

Knight's question #6 Has God predestined EVERY event, EVERY thought, EVERY - everything - in advance for all of history? YES or NO?

Doc's answer: God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

So... is that a YES or a NO? Looks like both to me.

YES: God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass

NO: neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away

How about we try again and you give me a YES or a NO. Why is that so hard?

Knight's question #6 Has God predestined EVERY event, EVERY thought, EVERY - everything - in advance for all of history? YES or NO?
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
docrob57 said:
I did not assert that you are not saved. I said that I was concerned that you may not be, though I probably didn't say that very politely. However, as this is the home of the truthsmack, I felt it was appropriate.

The problem is that you attribute your belief and confession to yourself. Much worse, however, you also indicate that it is at least theoretically possible for someone to save himself due to what you see as the elimination of an inherited sin nature at the crucifixion. This belief renders the atonement a mere "nicety," something that we can use if we need it but not really necessary. That is the really bad part.
I simply believe the words of the Bible instead of the words of Docrob.

Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

The Bible says that IF man believes in his heart and confesses with his mouth he will be saved by God.

You assert man cannot do that.

I proudly reject your assertion.
 

docrob57

New member
Knight said:
I simply believe the words of the Bible instead of the words of Docrob.

Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

The Bible says that IF man believes in his heart and confesses with his mouth he will be saved by God.

You assert man cannot do that.

I proudly reject your assertion.

And your pride, it it is not overcome, is what will doom your eternity.
 

docrob57

New member
Knight said:
Hmmmm lets see......

Knight's question #6 Has God predestined EVERY event, EVERY thought, EVERY - everything - in advance for all of history? YES or NO?

Doc's answer: God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

So... is that a YES or a NO? Looks like both to me.

YES: God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass

NO: neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away

How about we try again and you give me a YES or a NO. Why is that so hard?

Knight's question #6 Has God predestined EVERY event, EVERY thought, EVERY - everything - in advance for all of history? YES or NO?

Again, my answer is yes, the reasoning is at #82.
 

docrob57

New member
Knight said:
Ohhhhh..... kay......... :kokkoo: Does that come from the gospel of Docrob? :kookoo:

No that comes from the Gospel, which ultimately you reject because you insist that you are the key actor in your salvation. It amzes me how quickly you result to infantilism in your arguments.

If you don't want to discuss these things don't! It's your website! If you do, then just stick to your arguments and drop all the sophomoric stuff.
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
docrob57 said:
Again, my answer is yes, the reasoning is at #82.
That's better, that wasn't so hard was it?

So you acknowledge that God has predestined EVERY event, EVERY thought, EVERY - everything - in advance for all of history. That being the case where does man's freewill come into play?

Take an event - any event. Let's say... me going to the store today to pick up a turkey for Thanksgiving. You assert that event was ordained a millennia ago by God. It wasn't my choice to go to the store it was God's choice. God picked out my turkey and my wine that I bought at the liquor store. Nothing I did today was out of the scope of God meticulous planning a millennia ago (according to you). Where does freewill come into play? What part of my day and my subsequent decisions throughout the day were free?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top