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  • #61
    Originally posted by Clete View Post
    This makes the same error that Cntrysner is making.

    You're conflating two seperate issues. No one is suggesting that we can be good ENOUGH to be saved by our own works as though we are sinlessly perfect and deserve to spend eternity with God. All that is being said is that people are capable of doing things are good and that aren't evil!

    Was Abel not righteous? The bible says he was in several places. (Matthew 23:35; Hebrews 11:4; 1 John 3:12)

    Is there not a whole list of people that God considered righteous in Hebrews 11?

    Neither Enoch nor Elijah have yet tasted death! Is that because they weren't righteous or because they were?

    I mean, how much more obvious can it be?
    How much more plain can things be than the sins recorded against all but two individuals in the Bible, besides Jesus. David was called a righteous man yet he murdered a man for his wife. I call that filthy rags. Noah was a drunkard. He got so drunk he passed out naked. Peter was an obvious sinner. Solomon was an obvious sinner. Samuel sinned. Eli sinned. Moses sinned. Aaron sinned. Paul sinned. The only people that the Bible doesn't record any sins against other than Abel, and they both confessed they were sinful, was Daniel and Job. Yet the Bible calls all these sinners righteous men. Why? Because of the sacrifice of Jesus and their faith in Him.

    Just because Jesus' robe of righteousness covers me doesn't erase my sinfulness. I'm not holy. I cannot be holy until the new earth and I have a new body in which sin does not dwell. There is a reason there are two parts to Christ's righteousness. There is both imputed and imparted righteousness. Both are necessary and one does not come in an instant. It is the result of a lifetime of following Jesus. I can follow Jesus for many years and self will still be present in everything I do. We have inherent selfishness born into us, and selfishness is sin.

    1Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
    30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
    31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
    I have nothing to glory about. Anything about me that is good is from God's son. He is made unto me wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption.

    And as Paul said:
    Phillipians 3: 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
    10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
    11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
    12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
    13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
    14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
    Paul never thought his righteousness sufficient and yet He was highly used of God. He gave his life in working for God. He had no other goal.

    And what does prophecy tell us about the church?
    Revelation 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
    16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
    17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
    18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
    19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
    20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
    21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
    22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
    What are the gold and white raiment Jesus advises the church of Laodicea to buy of Him?
    “Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

    “One and God make a majority.”
    ― Frederick Douglass

    Comment


    • #62
      Isaiah 65:17-19,25 Isaiah 11:6

      Titus 3:5-7 Romans 3:23
      My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
      Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
      Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
      Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
      No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
      Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

      ? Yep

      Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

      ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

      Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Cntrysner View Post
        I hope above all this that we can still be friends and even more so, brothers in Christ because I still count you as one.
        Of course!

        I don't even think that our positions are that far apart!

        Originally posted by Cntrysner View Post
        Is our righteousness fifthly rags.

        Both yes and no can be true, it depends on your point of view.
        Precisely my point. If someone is talking about being sinless and trying to convince someone that there's nothing wrong with them and that they don't deserve to go to Hell and that they don't need a savior because they've done this good thing over here and that good thing over there and because they've never stolen anything or hurt anybody, etc., etc, etc. Then they are deluding themselves and the reality is that their righteousness is as filthy rags.

        On the other hand, if someone is talking about specific actions people take then there are righteous actions performed all the time all over the place by nearly every body. They don't even come close to out numbering the evil actions that people perform but that doesn't mean that they don't exist at all. If they didn't then God would end it like He did with Noah's flood where "the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually". (Gen. 6:5)

        My contention is to make sure the view gives all credit to Christ as Paul did.
        So how about we start with that. Where did Paul give "all the credit to Christ" and in what context?

        Let me ask you this...

        Would you say that it was a good thing for Paul to give all credit to Christ?

        Can someone here give me a scripture where Paul states his righteousness or he claims that his work is good or any can do good.
        "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)

        "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same." (Romans 13:3}

        "Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil;" (Romans 14:16)

        "See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all." (1 Thessalonians 5:15)

        "But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." (Romans 2:5)

        I totally admit I am not a theologian and I am ashamed of my ignorance of scripture.
        Read "The Plot" by Bob Enyart.

        You'll know more about the bible than 95% of all the full time pastors in the world.

        That is NOT an exaggeration.

        I simply want to insure concerning righteousness that there is no good a man can do if it is not Christ working in them through the power of the Holy Spirit.
        Jesus called Abel righteous and Hebrews 11 lists several people who were righteous and none of them were in Christ the way you and I are nor did most of them have the Holy Spirit.

        I want to leave no other options but Christ least even one be deceived by word or deed.
        I see that your motive is good but there is no point in being more holy minded than God is, right?

        In other words, it is not better to err on the side of ultra-humility, refusing even to accept rewards from the God Who is the Judge of what is and is not better.

        What is better is to cling to that which is true, nothing more, nothing less.

        Also, don't you think that Christ's death was sufficient to pay your sin debt? I know you do! Why then do you seek to punish yourself further by disqualifying yourself for the rewards that God Himself, who died to pay off your debt, wants to give you?

        I need to hear it said as such in any venue, Christ is the only righteousness or good one can proclaim concerning truth of the gospel.
        Well, as you said at the beginning of the post, that's true assuming you're keeping your eye on just what you mean. Concerning the gospel, yes! Our righteousness is His. Even our faithfulness His. (Romans 3:21-27; Philippians 1:11 & 3:9)

        Galatians 2 speaks to this most directly...
        Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

        17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

        18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

        19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

        20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

        I typically use the New King James but I quoted the old King James here because the translation is superior. Notice that it is not faith IN Christ but the faith OF Christ that justifies us. Notice also that Paul says that the life he lives in the flesh is also lived by "the faith OF the Son of God".

        And so, yes, the lives we live belong to God and the righteous works we perform come from Him as all good things do but remember that Paul is talking about the life that he (Paul) is living in the flesh and that he says that "we are God fellow workers" and that we will receive rewards in Heaven according to our work. The point being that this life is not a dress rehearsal nor do we have to sit on our hands waiting for our flesh to be redeemed in order to do good things. In fact, if there is good to be done and we choose not to do it then not only is that sin but chances are good that whatever that good was that we failed to perform won't get done at all.

        I'm reminded of Ezekiel chapter 3...
        Ezekiel3:18 When I [God] say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you [Ezekiel] give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 Yet, if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.

        20 “Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you did not give him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man that the righteous should not sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; also you will have delivered your soul.”

        Now, don't skip over that one! The second half of that passage is particularly applicable to our discussion because God wasn't making a special rule there for Ezekiel. That passage communicates a principle that is true throughout the scripture; that what we do or don't do has real consequences not just for ourselves but for those around us and that God will hold us responsible for those consequences whether for the good or the bad. Now, to be clear, Christ has taken the bad consequences on our behalf if we are in Him, but that doesn't mean that those consequences aren't real or that we didn't cause them.


        On a completely off topic side note, I just have to take a quick moment to point out how completely crushing Ezekiel chapter 3 is to the entire Calvinist theological construct. I mean it just smashes their whole system into powder. I'd wager that not 5% of people who call themselves Calvinist have ever even read Ezekiel chapter 3 nor do they have any idea that such a passage exists in their bibles. "...speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life..." - WOW! I mean really - WOW! How can anyone believe a word of Calvinism?

        I personally believe that any good I can do is not acceptable and count myself as a sinner no matter how anyone perceives me. I will point to Christ for any good found in me.
        Well, if any good that you do is not acceptable then why do it? By what measure is doing good not acceptable? How does that make any sense?

        Again, I can see that your motive here is a good one. Humility is a good thing but I hope to cause you to see that you are contradicting yourself here. You cannot both believe yourself to be in Christ and rightly consider yourself a sinner. The two are quite mutually exclusive.
        Romans 6:5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

        Colossians 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

        YOU ARE NOT A SINNER!!!

        You are in Christ and Christ is in you. If you're a sinner, so is Christ! NO WAY!

        Yes, you, in your flesh, do things you shouldn't but where there is no law, sin is not imputed. (Romans 4:8 & 5:13)

        The more real these truths become to you, the more victory over sin you will experience. In other words, you can't wait until you experience it to accept it as true. That's backward. We must accept the biblical facts concerning the death of our flesh and our righteous position in the resurrected Christ by faith. It is then, when, by faith, our flesh has been crucified, that sin no longer has dominion over us. (Romans 7:1)


        Principles of Spiritual Growth By Miles J. Stanford
        - MUST READ!!!

        Clete
        Last edited by Clete; October 18th, 2019, 07:22 AM.
        sigpic
        "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by ffreeloader View Post
          How much more plain can things be than the sins recorded against all but two individuals in the Bible, besides Jesus. David was called a righteous man yet he murdered a man for his wife. I call that filthy rags. Noah was a drunkard. He got so drunk he passed out naked. Peter was an obvious sinner. Solomon was an obvious sinner. Samuel sinned. Eli sinned. Moses sinned. Aaron sinned. Paul sinned. The only people that the Bible doesn't record any sins against other than Abel, and they both confessed they were sinful, was Daniel and Job. Yet the Bible calls all these sinners righteous men. Why? Because of the sacrifice of Jesus and their faith in Him.

          Just because Jesus' robe of righteousness covers me doesn't erase my sinfulness. I'm not holy. I cannot be holy until the new earth and I have a new body in which sin does not dwell. There is a reason there are two parts to Christ's righteousness. There is both imputed and imparted righteousness. Both are necessary and one does not come in an instant. It is the result of a lifetime of following Jesus. I can follow Jesus for many years and self will still be present in everything I do. We have inherent selfishness born into us, and selfishness is sin.
          So I state that you are conflating to separate issues and then you respond by conflating the same two issues!

          Your first example is an excellent one! David did all sorts of bad things in his life but he repented of those things and God forgave him and called David His friend and said that he was a man after God's own heart.

          No, David was not perfect, he was not sinless but that does not mean that he never did anything good in his entire life! And I mean good in the sense of realy genuinely good, righteous and just!

          I have nothing to glory about. Anything about me that is good is from God's son. He is made unto me wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption.
          Quite so! No one has suggested otherwise.

          You are conflating two separate issues.

          Paul never thought his righteousness sufficient and yet He was highly used of God. He gave his life in working for God. He had no other goal.
          Verse 16 of that very same passage says this...
          Philippians 3:16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.

          Attained what, money, power, friends, reputation?

          No!

          Paul is talking about righteousness!

          And what does prophecy tell us about the church?


          What are the gold and white raiment Jesus advises the church of Laodicea to buy of Him?
          Okay, first of all, this passage is not discussing the Body of Christ. Our righteousness is in Christ. Indeed, we are saved because of the righteousness and faithfulness OF Christ. Christ is not lukewarm nor can He be.

          However, setting aside dispensational issues for the sake of argument, I would ask you whether God had the same issue with every church he wrote letters to in Revelation? If not, how does that fact not refute your point?

          The only way it wouldn't refute it is if you are, as I keep saying, conflating two separate issues. There is a difference between doing something righteous and BEING righteous and even those that God calls righteous are only that because their sin has been forgiven not because they were inherently righteous or otherwise perfect.

          Clete
          sigpic
          "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
            The second "we" are saved, the first "we" are not.
            There is a change of status from sinner to saved.
            The words say "OUR righteousness are as filthy rags," which is speaking of a person's personal righteousness.

            The righteousness which is imputed to believers is a righteousness which is of God. In the following passage Paul contrasts his own righteousness with the righteousness which is of God:
            "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith" (Phil.3:9).

            It can be said that "our" righteousness (the personal righteousness of all people) are as filthy rags but believers no longer will be judged according to their own righteousness because they have received the imputed righteousness which is of God.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Clete View Post
              So I state that you are conflating to separate issues and then you respond by conflating the same two issues!

              Your first example is an excellent one! David did all sorts of bad things in his life but he repented of those things and God forgave him and called David His friend and said that he was a man after God's own heart.

              No, David was not perfect, he was not sinless but that does not mean that he never did anything good in his entire life! And I mean good in the sense of realy genuinely good, righteous and just!


              Quite so! No one has suggested otherwise.

              You are conflating two separate issues.


              Verse 16 of that very same passage says this...
              Philippians 3:16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.

              Attained what, money, power, friends, reputation?

              No!

              Paul is talking about righteousness!



              Okay, first of all, this passage is not discussing the Body of Christ. Our righteousness is in Christ. Indeed, we are saved because of the righteousness and faithfulness OF Christ. Christ is not lukewarm nor can He be.

              However, setting aside dispensational issues for the sake of argument, I would ask you whether God had the same issue with every church he wrote letters to in Revelation? If not, how does that fact not refute your point?

              The only way it wouldn't refute it is if you are, as I keep saying, conflating two separate issues. There is a difference between doing something righteous and BEING righteous and even those that God calls righteous are only that because their sin has been forgiven not because they were inherently righteous or otherwise perfect.

              Clete
              So, any good that David did means David was a righteous man? Really? It's a denial of the fall in Eden. Adam and Eve committed only one sin according to the Bible. And that one sin changed the course of human history. Both Adam and Eve, and all their descendants fell under the penalty of death because of it. And the sin was very small thing. They ate a piece of fruit from a forbidden tree. And yet that single choice changed their entire natures from sinless to self-centered. To be self-centered by nature means that selfishness is inherent in all of our actions. Therefore no matter how good the "righteousness" of those works look from the outside self is a part of those acts. That means those works are not truly righteous works.

              I think it's pretty interesting that you, who claim obedience to God's law is legalism, claim that humanity can actually obey God's law for no act can be righteous if it is in violation of God's law.. I find this position to be incomprehensible as you are arguing both sides of self-exclusionary points. In other words, your point is irrational. It is also in direct conflict with Paul's writings of whom you claim to believe apply to you.
              Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
              10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
              Since none of us are righteous it follows that none of our personal works are righteous. Unless, a righteous heart is not required to produce righteous works.
              “Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.”
              ― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

              “One and God make a majority.”
              ― Frederick Douglass

              Comment


              • #67
                The Jews had to do the purification works of the law. That is how they cleaned themselves, purified themselves, thus the name purification works. Those purification works of the law justified the Jews. Those purification works of the law were righteous acts.

                Those purification works included the blood of animals.

                When the people did the righteous acts of the law, which included animal blood, and were not really sorry for their sins, it made that animal blood sacrifice as a FILTHY RAG SACRIFICE.

                That is because they were not sorry for their sins.
                They did a righteous act when they gave blood offerings for their sins, but when they weren't really sorry for their sins it made their righteous act of blood offering from the animals they brought like blood from a menstrual rag meant to be thrown out.

                It is never as a filthy rag to obey God.
                You were taught to misunderstand the filthy rag scripture.

                The Jews had to do a righteous act of giving a sin offering, which included offering blood---God did not like it that they would sin then give a sin offering but not really be sorry for their sins; that made the righteous blood offering more like a bloody throw away rag offering. Not being truly sorry for the sin is what made the righteous act of sacrificing animals for their blood as a filthy rag.

                Isaiah 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

                Isaiah 1:13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings!


                Obey and bring blood offerings from a good place in your heart that is truly sorry for sins.

                That is what makes an offering meaningless or not.
                Oh how I love the Word of God!

                Do not just read the word do it.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
                  The Jews had to do the purification works of the law. That is how they cleaned themselves, purified themselves, thus the name purification works. Those purification works of the law justified the Jews. Those purification works of the law were righteous acts.

                  Those purification works included the blood of animals.

                  When the people did the righteous acts of the law, which included animal blood, and were not really sorry for their sins, it made that animal blood sacrifice as a FILTHY RAG SACRIFICE.

                  That is because they were not sorry for their sins.
                  They did a righteous act when they gave blood offerings for their sins, but when they weren't really sorry for their sins it made their righteous act of blood offering from the animals they brought like blood from a menstrual rag meant to be thrown out.

                  It is never as a filthy rag to obey God.
                  You were taught to misunderstand the filthy rag scripture.

                  The Jews had to do a righteous act of giving a sin offering, which included offering blood---God did not like it that they would sin then give a sin offering but not really be sorry for their sins; that made the righteous blood offering more like a bloody throw away rag offering. Not being truly sorry for the sin is what made the righteous act of sacrificing animals for their blood as a filthy rag.

                  Isaiah 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

                  Isaiah 1:13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings!


                  Obey and bring blood offerings from a good place in your heart that is truly sorry for sins.

                  That is what makes an offering meaningless or not.
                  How you doing gt.

                  Someone told me you got permabanned from the other place. Is that accurate?

                  peace

                  may GOD continually bless and guide you and yours.

                  Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by popsthebuilder1 View Post
                    How you doing gt.

                    Someone told me you got permabanned from the other place. Is that accurate?

                    peace

                    may GOD continually bless and guide you and yours.

                    Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk
                    So as far as you're concerned faith in the promises of God had nothing to do with the sacrificial system given to the Jews that pointed to the Messiah to come that was to redeem them? I think that is a complete mistake and misunderstanding of the OT. There is a abundance of scripture that tells us that.
                    “Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.”
                    ― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

                    “One and God make a majority.”
                    ― Frederick Douglass

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Clete View Post
                      Of course!

                      I don't even think that our positions are that far apart!


                      Precisely my point. If someone is talking about being sinless and trying to convince someone that there's nothing wrong with them and that they don't deserve to go to Hell and that they don't need a savior because they've done this good thing over here and that good thing over there and because they've never stolen anything or hurt anybody, etc., etc, etc. Then they are deluding themselves and the reality is that their righteousness is as filthy rags.

                      On the other hand, if someone is talking about specific actions people take then there are righteous actions performed all the time all over the place by nearly every body. They don't even come close to out numbering the evil actions that people perform but that doesn't mean that they don't exist at all. If they didn't then God would end it like He did with Noah's flood where "the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually". (Gen. 6:5)


                      So how about we start with that. Where did Paul give "all the credit to Christ" and in what context?

                      Let me ask you this...

                      Would you say that it was a good thing for Paul to give all credit to Christ?


                      "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)

                      "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same." (Romans 13:3}

                      "Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil;" (Romans 14:16)

                      "See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all." (1 Thessalonians 5:15)

                      "But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." (Romans 2:5)


                      Read "The Plot" by Bob Enyart.

                      You'll know more about the bible than 95% of all the full time pastors in the world.

                      That is NOT an exaggeration.


                      Jesus called Abel righteous and Hebrews 11 lists several people who were righteous and none of them were in Christ the way you and I are nor did most of them have the Holy Spirit.


                      I see that your motive is good but there is no point in being more holy minded than God is, right?

                      In other words, it is not better to err on the side of ultra-humility, refusing even to accept rewards from the God Who is the Judge of what is and is not better.

                      What is better is to cling to that which is true, nothing more, nothing less.

                      Also, don't you think that Christ's death was sufficient to pay your sin debt? I know you do! Why then do you seek to punish yourself further by disqualifying yourself for the rewards that God Himself, who died to pay off your debt, wants to give you?


                      Well, as you said at the beginning of the post, that's true assuming you're keeping your eye on just what you mean. Concerning the gospel, yes! Our righteousness is His. Even our faithfulness His. (Romans 3:21-27; Philippians 1:11 & 3:9)

                      Galatians 2 speaks to this most directly...
                      Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

                      17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

                      18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

                      19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

                      20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

                      I typically use the New King James but I quoted the old King James here because the translation is superior. Notice that it is not faith IN Christ but the faith OF Christ that justifies us. Notice also that Paul says that the life he lives in the flesh is also lived by "the faith OF the Son of God".

                      And so, yes, the lives we live belong to God and the righteous works we perform come from Him as all good things do but remember that Paul is talking about the life that he (Paul) is living in the flesh and that he says that "we are God fellow workers" and that we will receive rewards in Heaven according to our work. The point being that this life is not a dress rehearsal nor do we have to sit on our hands waiting for our flesh to be redeemed in order to do good things. In fact, if there is good to be done and we choose not to do it then not only is that sin but chances are good that whatever that good was that we failed to perform won't get done at all.

                      I'm reminded of Ezekiel chapter 3...
                      Ezekiel3:18 When I [God] say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you [Ezekiel] give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 Yet, if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.

                      20 “Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you did not give him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man that the righteous should not sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; also you will have delivered your soul.”

                      Now, don't skip over that one! The second half of that passage is particularly applicable to our discussion because God wasn't making a special rule there for Ezekiel. That passage communicates a principle that is true throughout the scripture; that what we do or don't do has real consequences not just for ourselves but for those around us and that God will hold us responsible for those consequences whether for the good or the bad. Now, to be clear, Christ has taken the bad consequences on our behalf if we are in Him, but that doesn't mean that those consequences aren't real or that we didn't cause them.


                      On a completely off topic side note, I just have to take a quick moment to point out how completely crushing Ezekiel chapter 3 is to the entire Calvinist theological construct. I mean it just smashes their whole system into powder. I'd wager that not 5% of people who call themselves Calvinist have ever even read Ezekiel chapter 3 nor do they have any idea that such a passage exists in their bibles. "...speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life..." - WOW! I mean really - WOW! How can anyone believe a word of Calvinism?


                      Well, if any good that you do is not acceptable then why do it? By what measure is doing good not acceptable? How does that make any sense?

                      Again, I can see that your motive here is a good one. Humility is a good thing but I hope to cause you to see that you are contradicting yourself here. You cannot both believe yourself to be in Christ and rightly consider yourself a sinner. The two are quite mutually exclusive.
                      Romans 6:5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

                      Colossians 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

                      YOU ARE NOT A SINNER!!!

                      You are in Christ and Christ is in you. If you're a sinner, so is Christ! NO WAY!

                      Yes, you, in your flesh, do things you shouldn't but where there is no law, sin is not imputed. (Romans 4:8 & 5:13)

                      The more real these truths become to you, the more victory over sin you will experience. In other words, you can't wait until you experience it to accept it as true. That's backward. We must accept the biblical facts concerning the death of our flesh and our righteous position in the resurrected Christ by faith. It is then, when, by faith, our flesh has been crucified, that sin no longer has dominion over us. (Romans 7:1)


                      Principles of Spiritual Growth By Miles J. Stanford
                      - MUST READ!!!

                      Clete
                      Paul said, I die daily and that is his reward. That is what you do to do any good and that is the way we will be judged. If you want a crown then you have to die for it in your spirit as Christ did at the cross. I rejoice in the gift but the more I understand about Christ the more I die and the more I die the more I am exalted in Christ.

                      I was a lost sinner but now I am found but still a sinner and if a sinner, there is no good I can do to be acceptable, it is all Christ. I don't know why you can see it that way.

                      God saved me on his promise, I knew I was going to hell so to speak but it wasn't enough for me to die to self because I trusted in my good work, my actions, and I produced majorly according to want I had as a child . Through weeks of the reality of me going to hell he gave me the promise that broke me of my selfish attitude and it was this....I will save your wife and kids if you will surrender. The truth cut deep within me. I was the appointed head of my family and knew it and all I could do was not good enough and I surrendered all my ability to Him. I'm talking about I couldn't do anything because I kept breaking down all the time just thinking about what was His and it was what I wanted most of all. I contend against myself still today and die daily because I have grandkids and a great grandchild on the way and if there is any reward for me it will be as before, continue to die for reward and exalt the righteous One, what I want is in His hands, not mine. I'm trying to be true to His promise with the reality that I can do nothing. There is only One righteous, only One purveyor of truth, only One that can do good and that is the Creator of all.

                      I find when I am weak, I am strong in the faith of Christ. If I am missing out on some other purveyance of truth I will by His will gladly do so. I am not weak, I am not missing out, I am very strong in the rewards of Christ.

                      I am telling you now, you do not want to be rendered according to your good. The more you strive to do good, which is a good thing, the more you should see it is not worthy but for self in this world.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Lon View Post
                        Isaiah 65:17-19,25 Isaiah 11:6

                        Titus 3:5-7 Romans 3:23
                        If this was meant for me, here's a list of texts to look at that fit far far better with the context of the advice to the church of Laodicea. The ones you point out point to gold being heaven. I ask, huh? The context of the passage ties gold and white raiment together so any explanation of the two has to be spiritual for the raiment of Christ, as you pointed out, points to our justification and the robe of righteousness Christ offers us.

                        The texts are not in logical order, but in the order they appear in the Bible. You'll have to study the relationship between them and the advice to Laodicea for yourself. I think that with some contemplation you will see the connection.

                        Job 33:10
                        Isaiah 13:12
                        Lamentations 4:1
                        Ezekiel 16:8-17
                        Zechariah 13:7
                        Malachi 3:2
                        1Peter 1:7
                        “Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.”
                        ― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

                        “One and God make a majority.”
                        ― Frederick Douglass

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by ffreeloader View Post
                          So as far as you're concerned faith in the promises of God had nothing to do with the sacrificial system given to the Jews that pointed to the Messiah to come that was to redeem them? I think that is a complete mistake and misunderstanding of the OT. There is a abundance of scripture that tells us that.
                          I'm sorry, but I do not understand where you got the idea that faith has nothing to do with sacrifice, but I never insinuated such.

                          peace

                          Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk

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                          • #73
                            Those in the OT or before Christ and His cross were declared righteous even faithful Abraham the father of us all in faith but now we have Christ unveiled and now all faith or righteousness or good work is measured by a sinless man. All righteousness or good by work or deed man can do falls away to nothing but filthy rags. You can't claim any good but Christ which is your just reward that the Father gave us.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by ffreeloader View Post
                              So, any good that David did means David was a righteous man? Really?
                              Oh boy.

                              More conlfating of issues is coming, I can tell already.

                              It's a denial of the fall in Eden.
                              Only if you insist conlfating two entirely seperate issues.

                              Adam and Eve committed only one sin according to the Bible. And that one sin changed the course of human history.
                              This is a hidious way of doing hermaneutics but regarless of that, it speaks to only one of two seperate issues that you seem unable to seperate.

                              Just because Adam and Eve sinned, doesn't mean that they never did anything good for the whole rest of their lives. It just doesn't mean that at all.

                              Was it a sin to conceive their children? Was it a sin for Adam to work to produce a living for his family? Was it a sin to for them to raise their children, which they must have done with some wisdom because Jesus Himself refers to their first born as "righteous Abel". A point I've made before and which you seem blind too.

                              Both Adam and Eve, and all their descendants fell under the penalty of death because of it.
                              They didn't deserve because of Adam and Eve's sin but because of their own. Once again, the fact that they sinned doesn't mean that everything they ever did was sin nor that they never did anything righteous. Indeed, many throughout the bible are called righteous.

                              And the sin was very small thing.
                              Oh no it wasn't!

                              They ate a piece of fruit from a forbidden tree.
                              That God Himself directly told them not to eat of. The fruit isn't the point, the rebellion is the issue. The forbidden fruit was the door way out of paradise. It was the alternative to God. They chose to walk through that door and reject God. No small thing at all.

                              Not that it matters, the issue here is not a matter of degree.

                              And yet that single choice changed their entire natures from sinless to self-centered. To be self-centered by nature means that selfishness is inherent in all of our actions. Therefore no matter how good the "righteousness" of those works look from the outside self is a part of those acts.
                              This is your doctrine speaking, not God's word. First of all, selfishness is one aspect of the sin nature but it isn't it's essense. I doubt that you could even articulate what that would mean. In fact, depending on just what you mean by "selfish" it may not be accurate at all.

                              Regardless, your doctrine here oversteps itself anyway. Not every act is selfish! Where do you read that at in the bible? You don't!

                              That means those works are not truly righteous works.
                              Well, just think that through for half a second!

                              Your doctrine has led you to this conclusion while the bible is full to overflowing with people throughout that it calls righteous and tells dozens, perhaps hundreds of stories about when certain people did righteous acts that God rewarded them for in a whole variety of ways.

                              So, which is right, God's word or your doctrine?

                              Why would you even bother to hold such a doctrine for more than five minutes? I mean you can get through ten pages of the bible without reading about someone doing something good or God rewarding righteous people or saving them from disaster or whatever. Such things are throughout the whole bible!

                              Take the whole book of Jonah for example, Jonah was a knuckle head but he did was God told him to do eventually and as a result Ninevah repented.

                              Was Ninenah's repentence a good thing or was it a selfish sin?

                              I think it's pretty interesting that you, who claim obedience to God's law is legalism, claim that humanity can actually obey God's law for no act can be righteous if it is in violation of God's law.
                              Where there is no law, sin in not imputed.

                              I didn't make that up, ffreeloader.

                              And following God's law is legalism - by definition.

                              You can try to follow the law if you want but you will fail and then the law will do that which it was intended to do, it will kill you. The law's ministry is a ministry of death. There is one other thing, and only one other thing in the bible that had a ministry of death, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The law is the knowledge of good and evil. It is, in effect, the fruit of that Tree. When Jesus nailed the law to the tree He meant for it stay there. Why would you wish to take it down and become a slave to it again? For those who where crucified in Him are dead to the law and thus the law has nothing to say to them. Christ's death and resurrection has left those who are in Him with the same command that Adam and Eve had, the same choice. We can choose to be righteous through Love (capital L) or through the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. You cannot do both! The law is carnal. It is of the flesh and at war with the things of the Spirit. The law is not of faith but of flesh. We are to crucify our flesh, not feed it with the forbidden fruit.

                              I find this position to be incomprehensible as you are arguing both sides of self-exclusionary points. In other words, your point is irrational. It is also in direct conflict with Paul's writings of whom you claim to believe apply to you.
                              You have no idea what you're talking about and I can see that you aren't interested in trying to understand it.

                              Since none of us are righteous it follows that none of our personal works are righteous. Unless, a righteous heart is not required to produce righteous works.
                              Sounds great!

                              Except that pretty much the entire bible contradicts you.

                              Don't bother responding again unless you intend to directly respond to the passages of scripture that I have repeatedly cited that directly contradict your doctrine and which demonstate that you are now willfully conflating two entirely seperates issues.

                              Clete
                              Last edited by JudgeRightly; October 21st, 2019, 08:26 PM.
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                              "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by popsthebuilder1 View Post
                                I'm sorry, but I do not understand where you got the idea that faith has nothing to do with sacrifice, but I never insinuated such.

                                peace

                                Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk
                                Your entire post, the way it was worded, pointed to works as the basis for an Isrealite/Jew to be seen as righteous. To offer a sacrifice was an act of faith, not of working to attain salvation. The Isrealites, as they lived before Jesus needed something to help them visualize their Savior and what He would do to redeem them as it is much harder to visualize a future event than it is to look back at that same event. We have a distinct advantage over them. Thus, God to equalize things between them and us gave them a worship that allowed them to visualize the work of their Savior.

                                Thus their righteousness was attained to by faith just as ours is. We are all justified by faith in Christ. That's the meaning of Paul's references to Abraham, that he had his righteousness imputed to him, just as we do, and that he would be the father of those who live by faith just as he did.
                                “Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.”
                                ― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

                                “One and God make a majority.”
                                ― Frederick Douglass

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