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  • #16
    Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
    We can obey what we have to in order to get saved, and we are to call on his name for help with the sins we have trouble stopping.
    That's right (John 8:34-36).

    Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
    Those who call on Jesus REPENTED of their sins . . .
    Indeed.

    And regarding repenting from a sin (Acts 8:22; 2 Corinthians 12:21, Revelation 3:19), that means to change one's mind regarding that sin, in the sense of having no plans to ever commit it again, knowing that God has made it possible for Christians not to sin (John 8:34-36, Romans 8:2-14, Romans 6:1-23; 2 Corinthians 7:1), even when they are tempted to do so (2 Peter 2:9a; 1 Corinthians 10:13, Matthew 6:13; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:16).

    But if, sometime after repenting from a sin, Christians nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to commit that sin again, this does not mean that they had not previously repented from that sin, or that they as continued believers in Jesus Christ and His Gospel are not saved from hell. What they need to do is to repent from that sin again and confess it to God, and they will be completely forgiven (1 John 1:9, cf. Luke 17:4).

    Satan wants Christians to fail to continue to come to Jesus Christ, to think that it is hopeless, that they are just too evil for Jesus, when in fact Jesus is waiting with open arms to forgive them for their sins, which weigh down on them so heavily (Matthew 11:28-30).

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
      ...if we obey His commands---we may know that we know Him; 1 John 2:3
      Yes, and Jesus Christ shows in the Sermon on the Mount how His New Covenant, Christian commandments are even stricter than the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade murder (Matthew 5:21, Exodus 20:13), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even calling people "fools" (Matthew 5:22). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade adultery (Matthew 5:27, Exodus 20:14), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even looking at another woman with lust (Matthew 5:28). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law permitted divorce and remarriage (Matthew 5:31, Deuteronomy 24:1-2), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids it (Matthew 5:32, Mark 10:11-12, Luke 16:18), except for a single exemption granted only to husbands who discover that their newlywed wife is not a virgin, but had committed fornication (Matthew 19:9).

      Jesus Christ also shows in the Sermon on the Mount that while His New Covenant, Christian law is stricter than the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, at the same time it is also more merciful. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required taking an eye for an eye (Matthew 5:38, Deuteronomy 19:21), while Jesus' New Covenant law requires turning the other cheek (Matthew 5:39). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required hatred for one's enemies (Matthew 5:43, Deuteronomy 23:6), while Jesus' New Covenant law requires love for one's enemies (Matthew 5:44). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, the ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:7), required, for example, that adulterers be put to death (Leviticus 20:10), while Jesus showed mercy to the woman caught in adultery (John 8:4-11). And, for another example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required that anyone who does any work on the sabbath is to be put to death (Exodus 31:14, Numbers 15:32-36), while Jesus allowed His disciples to work on the sabbath, and said that they were guiltless (Matthew 12:1-8), just as Jesus Himself worked on the sabbath (John 5:17-18).

      So in obeying Jesus Christ's New Covenant commandments (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29, John 14:15; 1 Corinthians 14:37), Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are both more merciful and loving, and also exceed in righteousness, those who mistakenly try to keep the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19).

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by bibleverse2 View Post
        That's right (John 8:34-36).



        Indeed.

        And regarding repenting from a sin (Acts 8:22; 2 Corinthians 12:21, Revelation 3:19), that means to change one's mind regarding that sin, in the sense of having no plans to ever commit it again, knowing that God has made it possible for Christians not to sin (John 8:34-36, Romans 8:2-14, Romans 6:1-23; 2 Corinthians 7:1), even when they are tempted to do so (2 Peter 2:9a; 1 Corinthians 10:13, Matthew 6:13; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:16).

        But if, sometime after repenting from a sin, Christians nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to commit that sin again, this does not mean that they had not previously repented from that sin, or that they as continued believers in Jesus Christ and His Gospel are not saved from hell. What they need to do is to repent from that sin again and confess it to God, and they will be completely forgiven (1 John 1:9, cf. Luke 17:4).

        Satan wants Christians to fail to continue to come to Jesus Christ, to think that it is hopeless, that they are just too evil for Jesus, when in fact Jesus is waiting with open arms to forgive them for their sins, which weigh down on them so heavily (Matthew 11:28-30).
        People go against that.

        I preach that and we should be glad that we have met someone in agreement.
        Oh how I love the Word of God!

        Do not just read the word do it.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by bibleverse2 View Post
          Yes, and Jesus Christ shows in the Sermon on the Mount how His New Covenant, Christian commandments are even stricter than the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade murder (Matthew 5:21, Exodus 20:13), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even calling people "fools" (Matthew 5:22). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade adultery (Matthew 5:27, Exodus 20:14), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even looking at another woman with lust (Matthew 5:28). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law permitted divorce and remarriage (Matthew 5:31, Deuteronomy 24:1-2), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids it (Matthew 5:32, Mark 10:11-12, Luke 16:18), except for a single exemption granted only to husbands who discover that their newlywed wife is not a virgin, but had committed fornication (Matthew 19:9).

          Jesus Christ also shows in the Sermon on the Mount that while His New Covenant, Christian law is stricter than the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, at the same time it is also more merciful. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required taking an eye for an eye (Matthew 5:38, Deuteronomy 19:21), while Jesus' New Covenant law requires turning the other cheek (Matthew 5:39). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required hatred for one's enemies (Matthew 5:43, Deuteronomy 23:6), while Jesus' New Covenant law requires love for one's enemies (Matthew 5:44). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, the ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:7), required, for example, that adulterers be put to death (Leviticus 20:10), while Jesus showed mercy to the woman caught in adultery (John 8:4-11). And, for another example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required that anyone who does any work on the sabbath is to be put to death (Exodus 31:14, Numbers 15:32-36), while Jesus allowed His disciples to work on the sabbath, and said that they were guiltless (Matthew 12:1-8), just as Jesus Himself worked on the sabbath (John 5:17-18).

          So in obeying Jesus Christ's New Covenant commandments (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29, John 14:15; 1 Corinthians 14:37), Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are both more merciful and loving, and also exceed in righteousness, those who mistakenly try to keep the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19).
          Good job explaining the truth. However, I do want to say that you should learn to recognize and have more confident in another who is preaching what you are preaching. We are to rebuke, and we are to correct, and we are to encourage others who believe the truth.
          Oh how I love the Word of God!

          Do not just read the word do it.

          Comment


          • #20
            So, you're saying God saves men by grace, through faith to put them back under the law? I don't buy that. His Blood isn't about saving us and then throwing us to the dogs. He saves us, washes us, cleanses us and comes to take up residence inside of us to live His Life through us. He orders our steps. He keeps us on The Path of Life. He guides us. He directs us. He keeps us from failing. Jesus said that He has never lost a single one that His Father gave Him, except the Son of Perdition. Sorry, I don't see where salvation by grace through faith in Christ's Blood then becomes some new 'works-based' nonsense. He saves. He cleanses. He keeps us. He is our Saviour, not us. We don't have to DO anything to keep our salvation. We are sealed. His Holy Spirit sees to that. I have faith in Him, not in my lowly flesh. Not in my 'obedience' or in my resolve. I have faith in The One Who lives in me, Alone. No one else. Nothing else. I'm saved by grace, not works.

            "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

            If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Aimiel View Post
              Sorry, I don't see where salvation by grace through faith in Christ's Blood then becomes some new 'works-based' nonsense.
              Initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

              (See also post #6 above)

              Originally posted by Aimiel View Post
              He is our Saviour, not us.
              Amen.

              For only Jesus Christ can save people from hell (John 14:6, John 3:36), by His sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Romans 3:25), and by the ability that He gives Christians to continue in the faith (Hebrews 12:2), to continue to do good works (John 15:5), to continue to repent from every sin that they commit (John 8:34-36), and to overcome to the end (Revelation 12:11), by their own choice. All NOSAS does is admit the fact that there is no assurance that every Christian will choose to do all of these things to the end.

              OSAS ultimately negates free will.

              Originally posted by Aimiel View Post
              We are sealed. His Holy Spirit sees to that.
              That's right.

              Ephesians 1:13-14, like Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:22, and 2 Corinthians 5:5, means that the measure of God's Holy Spirit which Christians have received now is like a down payment until their future redemption into physical immortality at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). But this future redemption is not assured for every Christian, just as a down payment on a house does not always assure that the future purchase-in-full will take place, instead of it being cancelled for some reason, such as the sellers willfully ruining the house after receiving the down payment and before the purchase-in-full has taken place. For the Holy Spirit does not take away Christians' free will. So if they wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and to do something like committing apostasy, or engaging in some sin without repentance, or becoming utterly lazy without repentance, then they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by bibleverse2 View Post
                Initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).
                Oh the twisting of the scripture. You're certainly one of the great Bible mashers here on TOL.

                There is NO such thing as "initial salvation" in the Bible.

                Originally posted by bibleverse2 View Post
                But other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b).
                Another term completely foreign to the scripture. You're either completely confused or a purposeful deceiver.

                Originally posted by bibleverse2 View Post
                For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26).
                So you are a follower of the twelve and not of Paul (as Paul follows Christ)?

                Which tribe are you? James 1:1

                Originally posted by bibleverse2 View Post
                And there is no assurance that Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).
                Matthew and John are NOT preaching the gospel of the grace of God as was Paul. You believe that you can earn what the Lord gives freely. Romans 3:24.

                P.S. I know that you will disagree and not understand a word of this post.
                All of my ancestors are human.
                Originally posted by Squeaky
                That explains why your an idiot.
                Originally posted by God's Truth
                Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
                  Oh the twisting of the scripture. You're certainly one of the great Bible mashers here on TOL.

                  There is NO such thing as "initial salvation" in the Bible.


                  Another term completely foreign to the scripture. You're either completely confused or a purposeful deceiver.


                  So you are a follower of the twelve and not of Paul (as Paul follows Christ)?

                  Which tribe are you? James 1:1


                  Matthew and John are NOT preaching the gospel of the grace of God as was Paul. You believe that you can earn what the Lord gives freely. Romans 3:24.

                  P.S. I know that you will disagree and not understand a word of this post.
                  Don't you believe in sanctification?

                  Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Aimiel View Post
                    So, you're saying God saves men by grace, through faith to put them back under the law? I don't buy that.
                    Not sure where you ever get that I preach the old law.

                    Jesus gave us a new law.

                    Romans 3:27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.

                    Grace is that we only have to have faith in Jesus' blood cleaning us of the sins we repent of doing.
                    Originally posted by Aimiel View Post

                    His Blood isn't about saving us and then throwing us to the dogs.
                    Not sure what you are talking about.
                    Originally posted by Aimiel View Post

                    He saves us, washes us, cleanses us and comes to take up residence inside of us to live His Life through us.
                    When a person wants to be saved, they have to be sure they are going to do what Jesus says to do.


                    Luke 9:62 Jesus replied, "No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God."
                    Originally posted by Aimiel View Post
                    He orders our steps. He keeps us on The Path of Life. He guides us. He directs us. He keeps us from failing. Jesus said that He has never lost a single one that His Father gave Him, except the Son of Perdition.
                    Jesus came first for those who were already saved. They were God's, but God says they have to go through Jesus to remain His.

                    John 18:9 This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: "I have not lost one of those you gave me."

                    Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

                    Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.

                    John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
                    Originally posted by Aimiel View Post
                    Sorry, I don't see where salvation by grace through faith in Christ's Blood then becomes some new 'works-based' nonsense.
                    It's about obeying Jesus. It's about doing everything God says like a child and a parent.

                    Matthew 18:3 And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

                    Originally posted by Aimiel View Post
                    He saves. He cleanses. He keeps us. He is our Saviour, not us. We don't have to DO anything to keep our salvation. We are sealed.
                    If a saved person is in God's hands, then they better keep obeying, or it could be a dreadful thing to be in God's hands:

                    Hebrews 10:31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

                    Originally posted by Aimiel View Post
                    His Holy Spirit sees to that. I have faith in Him, not in my lowly flesh. Not in my 'obedience' or in my resolve. I have faith in The One Who lives in me, Alone. No one else. Nothing else. I'm saved by grace, not works.
                    One must not deceive themselves.
                    One must train themselves to do good.

                    Don't deceive yourself:

                    James 1:16 Don't be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters.

                    James 1:22 Be doers of the word, and not hearers only. Otherwise, you are deceiving yourselves.

                    Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

                    1 Corinthians 6:9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men


                    Train yourselves:


                    Luke 6:40 A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.

                    Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

                    1 Corinthians 9:25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.

                    1 Timothy 4:7, 8 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.

                    2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

                    Titus 2:4 Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children,

                    Hebrews 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

                    Hebrews 12:11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
                    Oh how I love the Word of God!

                    Do not just read the word do it.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
                      There is NO such thing as "initial salvation" in the Bible.
                      Note that the ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation do not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" for them to be true and supported by the Bible, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity do not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "the unity" and "the Trinity" for them to be true and supported by the Bible (John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4).

                      For in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9), while other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

                      Also, in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5), in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is the salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and which is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus Christ will bring to obedient Christians at His future, Second Coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when He will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at His resurrection on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

                      Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people (that is, Christians) can know that they are actually saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). And just as an infant cannot "give back" his being born, or become unborn, so a born-again person cannot become un-born-again, or "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic, and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

                      Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
                      So you are a follower of the twelve and not of Paul (as Paul follows Christ)?
                      I follow them all, for they all follow Christ (1 John 1:1-3).

                      Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
                      Which tribe are you? James 1:1
                      Naphtali.

                      Regarding James 1:1, note that it is addressing "the twelve tribes" (James 1:1), which is the same as addressing people in the Church (James 5:14), people with faith in Jesus Christ (James 2:1, James 1:3) (that is, Christians), people who have been born again (James 1:18, cf. 1 Peter 1:23), who are waiting for Jesus to return (James 5:7).

                      Just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi: "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the Church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

                      That is, all Jews in the Church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all Gentiles in the Church have been grafted by God into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted by God into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire Church is the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the Church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15) which God has made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of Gentile Christians being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A Gentile Christian can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into by God, and he will receive an answer if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22) without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

                      Also, all those in the Church, whether Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

                      Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
                      Matthew and John are NOT preaching the gospel of the grace of God as was Paul.
                      Of course they are (Matthew 26:28, John 1:16), for there is no other Gospel (Galatians 1:6-9).

                      Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
                      You believe that you can earn what the Lord gives freely. Romans 3:24.
                      No, but ultimate justification does require works (James 2:24).

                      On their own, Christians are not good enough to earn their salvation (Romans 3:10). But if they continue to abide in Jesus Christ (John 15:4-6), they can become good enough to earn their ultimate salvation (Matthew 25:21, Romans 2:6-7, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9). For while Christians cannot do good apart from continuing to abide in Jesus (Romans 3:12, John 15:5b), if they do continue to abide in Him, they can do good (John 15:5, John 5:29, Philippians 2:12-13; 1 Timothy 6:18; 1 Peter 3:11; 3 John 1:11, Galatians 6:10, Ephesians 6:8, Hebrews 13:16, Luke 6:35).

                      Also, Jesus has made it possible for Christians not to sin (John 8:34-36, Romans 8:2-14, Romans 6:1-23; 2 Corinthians 7:1), even when they are tempted to do so (2 Peter 2:9a; 1 Corinthians 10:13; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:16). So they can become perfectly holy before God (2 Corinthians 7:1, Romans 6:22, Hebrews 12:14; 1 Thessalonians 4:7, Ephesians 4:24). And Jesus has made it possible for Christians to repent and confess their sins to God, and be completely forgiven, if they nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to commit a sin (1 John 1:9). They will lose their salvation ultimately only if they continue in a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by bibleverse2 View Post
                        Note that the ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation do not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" for them to be true and supported by the Bible, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity do not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "the unity" and "the Trinity" for them to be true and supported by the Bible (John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4).

                        For in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9), while other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

                        Also, in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5), in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is the salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and which is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus Christ will bring to obedient Christians at His future, Second Coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when He will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at His resurrection on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

                        Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people (that is, Christians) can know that they are actually saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). And just as an infant cannot "give back" his being born, or become unborn, so a born-again person cannot become un-born-again, or "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic, and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).
                        You are the ultimate Bible masher. But Bible mashing is pretty common is Churchianity today.

                        Over emphasizing similarities and ignoring differences.

                        Originally posted by bibleverse2 View Post
                        I follow them all, for they all follow Christ (1 John 1:1-3).
                        The follow Christ is different ways that you ignore or can't understand.

                        Originally posted by bibleverse2 View Post
                        Naphtali.

                        Regarding James 1:1, note that it is addressing "the twelve tribes" (James 1:1), which is the same as addressing people in the Church (James 5:14), people with faith in Jesus Christ (James 2:1, James 1:3) (that is, Christians), people who have been born again (James 1:18, cf. 1 Peter 1:23), who are waiting for Jesus to return (James 5:7).
                        So you're an Israelite and not a member of the body of Christ?

                        Good luck.

                        Originally posted by bibleverse2 View Post
                        Just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi: "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the Church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).
                        Gentiles were always allows to join with Israel. That is NOT how the body of Christ works where there is NEITHER Jew NOR Greek.

                        Ignoring the rest of your post as you just MASH things into a Bible smoothie that makes no sense at all.
                        All of my ancestors are human.
                        Originally posted by Squeaky
                        That explains why your an idiot.
                        Originally posted by God's Truth
                        Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                        Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                        (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                        1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                        (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                        Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by bibleverse2 View Post
                          Note that the ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation do not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" for them to be true and supported by the Bible, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity do not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "the unity" and "the Trinity" for them to be true and supported by the Bible (John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4).
                          There is no such thing as initial and ultimate salvation.

                          Originally posted by bibleverse2 View Post
                          For in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9),
                          Grace is not, "You get saved just for believing that you don't have to obey."

                          The 'not of works' is not of the purification works the people used to have to do when they worked at cleaning themselves endlessly.

                          Grace is, "Repent and believe Jesus' blood cleans you."

                          Repenting of sins is something we are supposed to do to get saved, so that we get saved and not perish.

                          Jesus tells us how to make your heart one that gets saved. He tells us to become like little children---which is about getting ready to do whatever he tells us to do. He tells us to have a forgiving heart, and to repent of our sins. Jesus also explains what kind of heart to have and he says a heart that wants him more than anyone and anything, and a heart that never gives up.
                          Originally posted by bibleverse2 View Post
                          while other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).
                          A person has to do right to get saved, and to keep doing right after they get saved.

                          Originally posted by bibleverse2 View Post
                          Also, in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5), in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is the salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and which is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus Christ will bring to obedient Christians at His future, Second Coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when He will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at His resurrection on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).
                          Now this is better, what you say here.
                          The 'initial' which you preach is false though, when you say 'to get salvation' requires belief that we just have to believe and make sure we don't do anything.

                          Another falsity is that when you preach 'initial' and 'ultimate' it is to take away getting saved and what all happens at that time.

                          What happens at that time is all the angels rejoice that you repented of your sins. What happens is that Jesus accepted you and made his home in your heart and seated you with him in heaven.
                          What happens is that you are back in and reconciled to God.

                          So then, when you say 'initial and ultimate', you take away from the first.
                          Oh how I love the Word of God!

                          Do not just read the word do it.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            To those who keep preaching that this and that in the Bible is only to the Jews/Israel, and that Israel is only Jews:

                            Do you think that God is going to take a dna test on us before He calls one of us a Jew with special privileges?

                            How much 'Jew' do I have to have to be in the special group of people you are promoting?
                            Oh how I love the Word of God!

                            Do not just read the word do it.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Right Divider said in post #26:

                              So you're an Israelite and not a member of the body of Christ?
                              Both, just as Paul is both (Romans 11:1b).

                              Right Divider said in post #26:

                              That is NOT how the body of Christ works where there is NEITHER Jew NOR Greek.
                              Galatians 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

                              Note that this cannot mean that there are no Christians who are Jews or Gentiles in any sense, for Christians remain either genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b). Similarly, Galatians 3:28 does not mean that there are no Christians who are males or females, for we are still males or females with regard to our genitals and with regard to other matters (1 Timothy 2:11-12; 1 Corinthians 14:34-37; 1 Corinthians 11:4-16; 1 Peter 3:7a).

                              So Galatians 3:28 can only mean that there is no distinction between Jewish and Gentile Christians, or between male and female Christians, with regard to them being "one in Christ" (Galatians 3:28b) in the sense of them being one body in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 4:4-6) without distinction with regard to their salvation (Romans 10:12; 1 Corinthians 12:13; 1 Peter 3:7b).

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by bibleverse2 View Post
                                Both, just as Paul is both (Romans 11:1b).
                                Paul is from the tribe of Benjamin, one of the southern tribes.
                                All of my ancestors are human.
                                Originally posted by Squeaky
                                That explains why your an idiot.
                                Originally posted by God's Truth
                                Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                                Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                                (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                                1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                                (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                                Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                                Comment

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