ECT 'Speaking in Tongues', true vs false.

[Right Divider]

While tongues are not required for salvation (1 Corinthians 12:30), the purpose of even unknown tongues is to edify Christians (1 Corinthians 14:4-5).

1Co 14:4-5 KJV He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. (5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.​

Also note that 1 Cor is one of the first books that Paul wrote. Things changed by the time that he wrote later books. God's full revelation of the mystery of Christ was NOT known in 1 Cor.

 

[Clete]

Because you do not see it does not mean that it is not in operation today

Who said anything about me?

There is no evidence - period.

And there absolutely would be if miracles were actually taking place.

We know for a fact that there is no linguistic information contained in the idiotic gibberish that passes for speaking in tongues.

The occurance of illnesses of all kinds is identical in populations of charismatic believers as in the rest of the population but because they often don't get proper treatment because to do so would be to fail to have faith in their healing, they often have HIGHER death rates from deseases like cancer.

The average wealth of charismatic congratations tends to actually be BELOW average, while the con artists in positions of authority over those congregations live in luxury.

None of these things would even be close to true if God were even partially involved, which He obviously isn't.

The whole thing is a big fat obvious lie and everyone knows it.

 

[Poly]

Because you do not see it does not mean that it is not in operation today

Why is it that when God did miracles in the bible, there was no doubting if they were real. Pharaoh believed the miracles he saw. The Pharisees believed the miracles they saw. They believed in them they just hated God all the more because He power was being magnified in front of them and they hated Him for it.

And why do you never see any child in a cancer center healed? I would think this would be one of the first places that Televangelists would go to first. They seem to prefer staying in their churches and performing miracles such as healing migraine headaches and neck pain.

 

[ttruscott]

When I was a teenager, Raveen came to town and I went with my brother up on the stage to see if we qualified to be hypnotised. He told us to do some things and to listen to him. We were rapidly waving our hands in the air when his voice slowly disappeared (without me noticing it till it came back) and I was not aware of anything else till he pulled my hands down and told me to go back to my seat. My brother was kept up on the stage and did a lot of funny things and later said he did not remember what happened until he 'woke up' at the end...

During my very brief foray into Pentecostalism I had my hands lifted up and was praising GOD in 'tongues' ie non-words, when the same thing happened and I felt (gone or somewhere else) which I only realized by 'coming back' to what I was doing...

 

[Right Divider]

When I was a teenager, Raveen came to town and I went with my brother up on the stage to see if we qualified to be hypnotised. He told us to do some things and to listen to him. We were rapidly waving our hands in the air when his voice slowly disappeared (without me noticing it till it came back) and I was not aware of anything else till he pulled my hands down and told me to go back to my seat. My brother was kept up on the stage and did a lot of funny things and later said he did not remember what happened until he 'woke up' at the end...

During my very brief foray into Pentecostalism I had my hands lifted up and was praising GOD in 'tongues' ie non-words, when the same thing happened and I felt (gone or somewhere else) which I only realized by 'coming back' to what I was doing...

Was there a point to this story telling?

 

[The Berean]

There is no evidence that any such "sign/power gifts" are in operation today. When God does miracles they're obvious and undeniable and do not exist only in the eyes of the "faithful".

What would you consider "evidence?" First hand accounts? Video? And miracles can be denied. When Peter spoke at Pentecost many accused Peter and company of being drunk. When Jesus healed the blind man and the blind man spoke to the Jewish leaders they didn't believe him. When God worked miracles through Moses, Pharaoh called Moses a sorcerer and Pharaoh turned to his magicians to replicate Moses' magic.

Have you read Bob Enyart's book The Plot? If not, you'd probably appreciate his work on the topic. It is undoubtedly the most thorough biblical argument I've seen and the book isn't even about miracles and healing per se. I mean, it is talked about at length in one chapter but it definitely is not the point of the book at all.

The Plot by Bob Enyart

I actually have a copy of The Plot. I've been meaning to read it for a long time.

 

[God's Truth]

When I was a teenager, Raveen came to town and I went with my brother up on the stage to see if we qualified to be hypnotised. He told us to do some things and to listen to him. We were rapidly waving our hands in the air when his voice slowly disappeared (without me noticing it till it came back) and I was not aware of anything else till he pulled my hands down and told me to go back to my seat. My brother was kept up on the stage and did a lot of funny things and later said he did not remember what happened until he 'woke up' at the end...

During my very brief foray into Pentecostalism I had my hands lifted up and was praising GOD in 'tongues' ie non-words, when the same thing happened and I felt (gone or somewhere else) which I only realized by 'coming back' to what I was doing...

I always wondered if those people on stage were really hypnotized.

It is kind of strange that the same thing happened while you were in a Pentecostal church. I have heard of some off things like that and it doesn't surprise me.

Do you have anything else to add about your experience in the Pentecostal church?

 

[God's Truth]

The most common definition is that the miraculous "sign/power" gifts no longer operate today. The Holy Spirit today doesn't grant the gifts of speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, discerning of spirits, prophetic utterances, gift of healing, etc.

I've read quite a bit, pro and con, on the subject as I find it fascinating.

God still heals people. Nowhere do the scriptures say healing has stopped.

 

[Clete]

God still heals people.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Nowhere do the scriptures say healing has stopped.

First of all, this is not a rational argument. It's called an argument from silence.

More importantly, the bible doesn't need to say it outright. The fact is that it does teach it.

In the gospels, every sick person that gets mentioned also gets healed but we know this has stopped by the end of the Acts period because Paul records things like...
`

I Timothy 5:23No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities.

II Timothy 4:20 Erastus stayed in Corinth, but Trophimus I have left in Miletus sick.
​

Further, as I have pointed out several times already, there is exactly zero evidence that miraculous healings are going on. In fact, quite the contrary! People who attend faith healing churches get sick in the same sort of ways and at the same frequency as the rest of the population around them and because they're tricked into believing that they've been miraculously healed from their disease, they often delay treatment (if not forgo it altogether) and thus die MORE frequently than average. They are literally told to have faith and believe that they have received their healing in spite of their symptoms. It's literally a murderous lie!

Speaking of what the bible doesn't say, where is the example of a miracle that was hidden? Where is the sign that no one could see? Where did God ever do anything supernatural where anyone but Him could rationally be given credit for it's occurrence? God does not hide His miracles under a bushel, He does not sneak in His miracles behind a curtain. If God were performing miracles today, this thread would not exist because everyone would know that He was doing it.

If you want to know why He isn't doing physical miracles today, you should ask why He ever did them in the first place and what was the usual result when He did do them.

Clete

 

[Clete]

What would you consider "evidence?" First hand accounts? Video? And miracles can be denied. When Peter spoke at Pentecost many accused Peter and company of being drunk. When Jesus healed the blind man and the blind man spoke to the Jewish leaders they didn't believe him. When God worked miracles through Moses, Pharaoh called Moses a sorcerer and Pharaoh turned to his magicians to replicate Moses' magic.

Even when people refused to repent and believe God, the fact that the miracles occurred and who performed them wasn't denied. Pharaoh didn't deny that Moses' staff became a snake, for example and when Jesus was accused of having a demon, the fact that the miraculous healings took place and that Jesus had performed the miracle wasn't denied. In other words, groping for alternative explanations for an event is an acknowledgment that the event occurred not a denial of it.
Notice that there isn't anyone doing that today. There isn't anyone accusing Benny Hinn of having a demon and performing his miracles by their power. There isn't anyone out there trying to reproduce Hinn's miracles saying, "See! Here's how he is restoring sight to the blind." or "I've figured out the secret to how Hinn fixes cerebral palsy."
No! Instead, there isn't any evidence that anyone has ever been healed a single real physical ailment of any sort whatsoever. When there is even testimony of such a thing it's always in some far flung place like Indonesia or Zimbabwe. It's sort of the Christian equivalent to UFO sightings that only ever happen in the desert or on a deserted road outside of town where only one or two people supposedly saw it and there's never any evidence to back up their story.

If miraculous healing were happening, you'd not even need to ask me what I would consider evidence in the first place because everyone would know what the evidence was. Do you think anyone was wondering what evidence the Apostles had for Jesus' miracles? Do you suppose that there was any doubt what Paul was referring to when he asked the Galatians whether the miracles they witnessed were performed by the law? Of course not, right?! I mean, they were clear, obvious and undeniable as is every single example of witnessed miracles in the bible.

One aspect of your point is well taken though! Christian today have an entirely wrong understanding of the effect that miracles have on those who witness them. People who witness miracles not only often deny that they are actual miracles but in fact the miracle most often has the effect of hardening the hearts of those who witness them, the exceptions being those who already believe! There are 343 miraculous events recorded in the Bible. Bob lists every single one of them along with the results in The Plot. It's not a good record! Miracles foster unbelief and hatred of God.

I actually have a copy of The Plot. I've been meaning to read it for a long time.

It is generally true that those who have not read The Plot do not understand the bible.

Read it! Today!

You should really read the first four chapters before reading any of the rest though. Jumping ahead tends to be a disaster.

 

[God's Truth]

Saying it doesn't make it so.


First of all, this is not a rational argument. It's called an argument from silence.

More importantly, the bible doesn't need to say it outright. The fact is that it does teach it.

In the gospels, every sick person that gets mentioned also gets healed but we know this has stopped by the end of the Acts period because Paul records things like...
`

I Timothy 5:23No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities.

II Timothy 4:20 Erastus stayed in Corinth, but Trophimus I have left in Miletus sick.
​

Further, as I have pointed out several times already, there is exactly zero evidence that miraculous healings are going on. In fact, quite the contrary! People who attend faith healing churches get sick in the same sort of ways and at the same frequency as the rest of the population around them and because they're tricked into believing that they've been miraculously healed from their disease, they often delay treatment (if not forgo it altogether) and thus die MORE frequently than average. They are literally told to have faith and believe that they have received their healing in spite of their symptoms. It's literally a murderous lie!

Speaking of what the bible doesn't say, where is the example of a miracle that was hidden? Where is the sign that no one could see? Where did God ever do anything supernatural where anyone but Him could rationally be given credit for it's occurrence? God does not hide His miracles under a bushel, He does not sneak in His miracles behind a curtain. If God were performing miracles today, this thread would not exist because everyone would know that He was doing it.

If you want to know why He isn't doing physical miracles today, you should ask why He ever did them in the first place and what was the usual result when He did do them.

Clete

God still does miracles and heals people miraculously.
Nowhere anywhere does God say it will stop.
This is not about the TV healers.

 

[Clete]

God still does miracles and heals people miraculously.
Nowhere anywhere does God say it will stop.
This is not about the TV healers.

Saying it doesn't make it so.


....and neither does repeating it over and over again.

 

[User Name]

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Does God answer prayer at all anymore?

 

[God's Truth]

Saying it doesn't make it so.


....and neither does repeating it over and over again.

You saying that doesn't make it so, no matter how many times.
As if God doesn't heal people anymore, wow.

 

[Clete]

You saying that doesn't make it so, no matter how many times.
As if God doesn't heal people anymore, wow.

The problem for you is that I didn't merely make the claim, I made an argument and gave biblical evidence to support my statements.
Here, I'll repost it all here....

God still heals people.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Nowhere do the scriptures say healing has stopped.

First of all, this is not a rational argument. It's called an argument from silence.

More importantly, the bible doesn't need to say it outright. The fact is that it does teach it.

In the gospels, every sick person that gets mentioned also gets healed but we know this has stopped by the end of the Acts period because Paul records things like...
`
I Timothy 5:23No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities.

II Timothy 4:20 Erastus stayed in Corinth, but Trophimus I have left in Miletus sick.

Further, as I have pointed out several times already, there is exactly zero evidence that miraculous healings are going on. In fact, quite the contrary! People who attend faith healing churches get sick in the same sort of ways and at the same frequency as the rest of the population around them and because they're tricked into believing that they've been miraculously healed from their disease, they often delay treatment (if not forgo it altogether) and thus die MORE frequently than average. They are literally told to have faith and believe that they have received their healing in spite of their symptoms. It's literally a murderous lie!

Speaking of what the bible doesn't say, where is the example of a miracle that was hidden? Where is the sign that no one could see? Where did God ever do anything supernatural where anyone but Him could rationally be given credit for it's occurrence? God does not hide His miracles under a bushel, He does not sneak in His miracles behind a curtain. If God were performing miracles today, this thread would not exist because everyone would know that He was doing it.

If you want to know why He isn't doing physical miracles today, you should ask why He ever did them in the first place and what was the usual result when He did do them.

Clete

 

[God's Truth]

The problem for you is that I didn't merely make the claim, I made an argument and gave biblical evidence to support my statements.
Here, I'll repost it all here....


Saying it doesn't make it so.


First of all, this is not a rational argument. It's called an argument from silence.

More importantly, the bible doesn't need to say it outright. The fact is that it does teach it.

In the gospels, every sick person that gets mentioned also gets healed but we know this has stopped by the end of the Acts period because Paul records things like...
`
I Timothy 5:23No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities.

II Timothy 4:20 Erastus stayed in Corinth, but Trophimus I have left in Miletus sick.

Further, as I have pointed out several times already, there is exactly zero evidence that miraculous healings are going on. In fact, quite the contrary! People who attend faith healing churches get sick in the same sort of ways and at the same frequency as the rest of the population around them and because they're tricked into believing that they've been miraculously healed from their disease, they often delay treatment (if not forgo it altogether) and thus die MORE frequently than average. They are literally told to have faith and believe that they have received their healing in spite of their symptoms. It's literally a murderous lie!

Speaking of what the bible doesn't say, where is the example of a miracle that was hidden? Where is the sign that no one could see? Where did God ever do anything supernatural where anyone but Him could rationally be given credit for it's occurrence? God does not hide His miracles under a bushel, He does not sneak in His miracles behind a curtain. If God were performing miracles today, this thread would not exist because everyone would know that He was doing it.

If you want to know why He isn't doing physical miracles today, you should ask why He ever did them in the first place and what was the usual result when He did do them.

Clete

Your big problem is that the Bible is full of scriptures that say God heals people, and not one that says it has stopped.

 

[Clete]

Your big problem is that the Bible is full of scriptures that say God heals people, and not one that says it has stopped.

There is no evidence that any such healing is happening. None!

And, why do you suppose that Paul didn't heal Timothy or Miletus?

 

[Clete]

Does God answer prayer at all anymore?

Of course!

What would cause you to make such a connection?

 

[God's Truth]

There is no evidence that any such healing is happening. None!

And, why do you suppose that Paul didn't heal Timothy or Miletus?

Just because Timothy had stomach problems doesn't mean God doesn't heal anyone ever.

Not only that, Paul seems to think it is because of his intake of liquids, and lack of intake.

Give me the scripture about Miletus?

 

[Clete]

Just because Timothy had stomach problems doesn't mean God doesn't heal anyone ever.

Not only that, Paul seems to think it is because of his intake of liquids, and lack of intake.

Give me the scripture about Miletus?

You are the laziest person on TOL. I've already given you the reference and you'd know that if you read my posts instead of showing up to post one line tidbits of stupidity that you basically repeat in response to any rebuttal.

Totally complete waste of time!