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'Speaking in Tongues', true vs false.

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  • #31
    The modern "speaking in tongues" as well as the rest of the so called "Charismatic Movement" has been falsified so many times that it's not even funny. It's been proven to be false linguistically, biblically, historically and who know in how many other ways. If you are "speaking in tongues" today, you're either a victim of lies or are yourself a liar. In most cases its the former, of course. It's just another ingredient that adds flavor to the complex con job that is the charismatic movement. It simply adds a layer to the con that causes the mark to convince himself by way of emotion based experience, that the lie is true. It serves the same purpose as a baited fishing hook except that what's being fished for is the mark's money.

    John MacArthur has a great deal of material on the subject in a variety of formats. Whether you agree with anything else MacArthur says, his work in this area is unassailable by any intellectually honest person. His argumentation comes from several different direction but, so far as I can recall, none of them are based on his own doctrine in the sense of "Speaking in tongues conflicts with my doctrine, therefore it isn't real." In other words, his arguments are rationally sound, biblically and historically based and are quite thorough and easy to understand.

    Thirteen Sermons on Charismatic Chaos

    Charismatic Chaos the book

    The book is 30 years old and is probably more powerful now than it was in 1993 when he wrote it because it's so easy to see now that he was right about the whole movement.
    sigpic
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    • #32
      Are you a cessationist, Clete? Just wondering.
      Your problem is not technology. The problem is YOU. You lack the will to change...You treat this planet as you treat each other. - Klaatu

      What are you talking about? There is no such thing as the "Mafia"......it doesn't exist. Just a bunch of lies told to defame honest hardworking Italians like myself. - TomO

      I will do you, let's see, goofy, wacky, and to the left side of the bell curve
      . -Ktoyou

      I'm white. I'm not black. I can't convert to being black. It doesn't matter how much I want to become black. I could listen to rap and date fat white women all day; for all that, I'll still remain white.- Traditio

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      • #33
        Originally posted by The Berean View Post
        Are you a cessationist, Clete? Just wondering.
        Probably.

        Just what is a "cessationist", in your view?
        sigpic
        "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Clete View Post

          Probably.

          Just what is a "cessationist", in your view?
          The most common definition is that the miraculous "sign/power" gifts no longer operate today. The Holy Spirit today doesn't grant the gifts of speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, discerning of spirits, prophetic utterances, gift of healing, etc.

          I've read quite a bit, pro and con, on the subject as I find it fascinating.
          Your problem is not technology. The problem is YOU. You lack the will to change...You treat this planet as you treat each other. - Klaatu

          What are you talking about? There is no such thing as the "Mafia"......it doesn't exist. Just a bunch of lies told to defame honest hardworking Italians like myself. - TomO

          I will do you, let's see, goofy, wacky, and to the left side of the bell curve
          . -Ktoyou

          I'm white. I'm not black. I can't convert to being black. It doesn't matter how much I want to become black. I could listen to rap and date fat white women all day; for all that, I'll still remain white.- Traditio

          Comment


          • #35
            The believers in the Bible times who spoke in tongues, they spoke in tongues supernaturally. The believers who supposedly speak in tongues nowadays, they speak gibberish and believe God turns their gibberish into supernatural language, and that is a false doctrine.
            Oh how I love the Word of God!

            Do not just read the word do it.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by The Berean View Post

              The most common definition is that the miraculous "sign/power" gifts no longer operate today. The Holy Spirit today doesn't grant the gifts of speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, discerning of spirits, prophetic utterances, gift of healing, etc.

              I've read quite a bit, pro and con, on the subject as I find it fascinating.
              There is no evidence that any such "sign/power gifts" are in operation today. When God does miracles they're obvious and undeniable and do not exist only in the eyes of the "faithful".

              Have you read Bob Enyart's book The Plot? If not, you'd probably appreciate his work on the topic. It is undoubtedly the most thorough biblical argument I've seen and the book isn't even about miracles and healing per se. I mean, it is talked about at length in one chapter but it definitely is not the point of the book at all.

              The Plot by Bob Enyart
              sigpic
              "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Clete View Post

                There is no evidence that any such "sign/power gifts" are in operation today. When God does miracles they're obvious and undeniable and do not exist only in the eyes of the "faithful".

                Have you read Bob Enyart's book The Plot? If not, you'd probably appreciate his work on the topic. It is undoubtedly the most thorough biblical argument I've seen and the book isn't even about miracles and healing per se. I mean, it is talked about at length in one chapter but it definitely is not the point of the book at all.

                The Plot by Bob Enyart
                Because you do not see it does not mean that it is not in operation today
                He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

                Jim Elliot

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post

                  Because you do not see it does not mean that it is not in operation today
                  Because you say it is does not mean that it is.
                  All of my ancestors are human.
                  Originally posted by Squeaky
                  That explains why your an idiot.
                  Originally posted by God's Truth
                  Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                  Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                  (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                  1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                  (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                  Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Right Divider View Post

                    Because you say it is does not mean that it is.
                    That's a fact but I never said that they were in operation. That is something you assumed.
                    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

                    Jim Elliot

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post

                      That's a fact but I never said that they were in operation. That is something you assumed.
                      Why would I not assume that based on what you posted?
                      All of my ancestors are human.
                      Originally posted by Squeaky
                      That explains why your an idiot.
                      Originally posted by God's Truth
                      Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                      Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                      (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                      1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                      (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                      Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by bibleverse2 View Post

                        While tongues are not required for salvation (1 Corinthians 12:30), the purpose of even unknown tongues is to edify Christians (1 Corinthians 14:4-5).
                        1Co 14:4-5 KJV He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. (5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

                        Also note that 1 Cor is one of the first books that Paul wrote. Things changed by the time that he wrote later books. God's full revelation of the mystery of Christ was NOT known in 1 Cor.
                        All of my ancestors are human.
                        Originally posted by Squeaky
                        That explains why your an idiot.
                        Originally posted by God's Truth
                        Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                        Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                        (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                        1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                        (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                        Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post

                          Because you do not see it does not mean that it is not in operation today
                          Who said anything about me?

                          There is no evidence - period.

                          And there absolutely would be if miracles were actually taking place.

                          We know for a fact that there is no linguistic information contained in the idiotic gibberish that passes for speaking in tongues.

                          The occurance of illnesses of all kinds is identical in populations of charismatic believers as in the rest of the population but because they often don't get proper treatment because to do so would be to fail to have faith in their healing, they often have HIGHER death rates from deseases like cancer.

                          The average wealth of charismatic congratations tends to actually be BELOW average, while the con artists in positions of authority over those congregations live in luxury.

                          None of these things would even be close to true if God were even partially involved, which He obviously isn't.

                          The whole thing is a big fat obvious lie and everyone knows it.
                          sigpic
                          "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post

                            Because you do not see it does not mean that it is not in operation today
                            Why is it that when God did miracles in the bible, there was no doubting if they were real. Pharaoh believed the miracles he saw. The Pharisees believed the miracles they saw. They believed in them they just hated God all the more because He power was being magnified in front of them and they hated Him for it.

                            And why do you never see any child in a cancer center healed? I would think this would be one of the first places that Televangelists would go to first. They seem to prefer staying in their churches and performing miracles such as healing migraine headaches and neck pain.
                            "The most terrifying words in the English language are 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" - Ronald Reagan



                            Check out the "rightest" of all right wing moms. FarRightMom


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                            • #44
                              When I was a teenager, Raveen came to town and I went with my brother up on the stage to see if we qualified to be hypnotised. He told us to do some things and to listen to him. We were rapidly waving our hands in the air when his voice slowly disappeared (without me noticing it till it came back) and I was not aware of anything else till he pulled my hands down and told me to go back to my seat. My brother was kept up on the stage and did a lot of funny things and later said he did not remember what happened until he 'woke up' at the end...

                              During my very brief foray into Pentecostalism I had my hands lifted up and was praising GOD in 'tongues' ie non-words, when the same thing happened and I felt (gone or somewhere else) which I only realized by 'coming back' to what I was doing...
                              I Champion GOD’s holiness:
                              - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                              - All evil is creature-created.

                              I Champion Our Free will:
                              - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
                                When I was a teenager, Raveen came to town and I went with my brother up on the stage to see if we qualified to be hypnotised. He told us to do some things and to listen to him. We were rapidly waving our hands in the air when his voice slowly disappeared (without me noticing it till it came back) and I was not aware of anything else till he pulled my hands down and told me to go back to my seat. My brother was kept up on the stage and did a lot of funny things and later said he did not remember what happened until he 'woke up' at the end...

                                During my very brief foray into Pentecostalism I had my hands lifted up and was praising GOD in 'tongues' ie non-words, when the same thing happened and I felt (gone or somewhere else) which I only realized by 'coming back' to what I was doing...
                                Was there a point to this story telling?
                                All of my ancestors are human.
                                Originally posted by Squeaky
                                That explains why your an idiot.
                                Originally posted by God's Truth
                                Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                                Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                                (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                                1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                                (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                                Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                                Comment

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