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  • The Jews and Gentiles who wanted to have a relationship with God had to do more than just do right---they also had to atone for their sins by cleaning themselves. The Jews cleaned themselves but the Gentiles didn't do it.

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    • Since Jesus, the only way to the Father is through Jesus. Jesus' blood cleans all now, no matter who you are. When one has faith that Jesus' blood purifies them of all their sins they repent of doing, they have entered the covenant of his blood.

      Faith in Jesus' blood is now what cleans us, Jesus did the work for us now. All power is now given to Jesus to clean, no longer by the old law's purification works.

      There are Jews who went against that, and Jews who accepted that.

      The Jews who accept that are the true Israel of God, for they do not reject His Son.

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      • Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
        Jesus and Paul tell us plainly. Just look at the Galatians who Paul called 'foolish'.

        Notice that Paul did not say, "You foolish Galatians, why do you think repenting of sins and obeying Jesus did anything?"
        No, he certainly didn't. He asks them why they thought that they had to finish out their salvation by the flesh even though they started off with the Spirit.

        Paul would not ever speak against repenting of sins and obeying Jesus.
        He certainly did not speak against repenting but he did speak against obeying the law for your salvation.

        Galatians 2:16 "For by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.”

        If you're trying to earn your salvation or maintain it by the works of the law, you're doing it in vain. "Works.....of.....the.....law." Can't get any clearer than that. If you want to remain willfully ignorant that this doesn't mean exactly what is says then nobody will convince you otherwise. But then in your next statement you say..

        Paul was explaining that by faith in Jesus' blood we are made clean and we are not made clean anymore by getting circumcised in the flesh and offering animals.
        That's what I've been saying.
        "The most terrifying words in the English language are 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" - Ronald Reagan



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        • Originally posted by Poly View Post
          No, he certainly didn't. He asks them why they thought that they had to finish out their salvation by the flesh even though they started off with the Spirit.
          With all due respect to you, Paul was speaking about the purification works of the law.

          Galatians 4:9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years.…

          The Jews talked the Christian Galatians into observing special days. Observing special days was now worthless. Observing special days was even practiced by pagans in their form of worship to their false gods.

          Read here how Paul pleads with them not to get CIRCUMCISED:

          Galatians 5:2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.

          Nowhere ever does Paul rebuke someone for obeying Jesus too much, or for thinking their obedience to Christ is somehow in any way wrong. In fact, Paul boasts on Christians for obeying...

          Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,


          Originally posted by Poly View Post

          He certainly did not speak against repenting but he did speak against obeying the law for your salvation.
          Jesus preached the new law. He did tell the Jews though to obey the Pharisees and teachers of the because they sat in Moses' seat and they would persecute them. Jesus also said that the temple would be destroyed.

          Originally posted by Poly View Post

          Galatians 2:16 "For by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.”

          If you're trying to earn your salvation or maintain it by the works of the law, you're doing it in vain. "Works.....of.....the.....law." Can't get any clearer than that. If you want to remain willfully ignorant that this doesn't mean exactly what is says then nobody will convince you otherwise. But then in your next statement you say..
          Works of the law is only the purification/ceremonial works.

          We are never ever told that doing ANYTHING GOD SAYS to do will CONDEMNS US.


          Originally posted by Poly View Post

          That's what I've been saying.
          Faith alone is dead. We have to do what Jesus says to do to get saved. We have to humble ourselves, we have to repent of our sins.

          The faith alone doctrine says do nothing but have faith.

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          • Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
            With all due respect to you, Paul was speaking about the purification works of the law.

            Galatians 4:9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years.…
            He mentions these giving an example of some of the laws. If I tell my child, "I want you to get your room clean and really good this time by dusting the shelves, and vacuuming the carpet" I'm going to go in and expect the whole room to be clean, not just those few things I mentioned.



            Read here how Paul pleads with them not to get CIRCUMCISED:

            Galatians 5:2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.
            Agreed. But this wasn't the only work of the law he expected them not to keep. He wouldn't refer to it as "The law" which is a title that incorporates all of them. Otherwise he would have said "these laws."

            Nowhere ever does Paul rebuke someone for obeying Jesus too much, or for thinking their obedience to Christ is somehow in any way wrong. In fact, Paul boasts on Christians for obeying...

            Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
            So you're saying here that when he says work out your salvation, he means do everything but the ceremonial and purification laws you mentioned. So I'm to assume that you keep the roughly 613 laws, minus the purification and ceremonial laws. I'm guessing your clothing bill must be really high since you have to make sure not to buy anything with wool and linen mixed together.
            "The most terrifying words in the English language are 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" - Ronald Reagan



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            • Originally posted by Poly View Post
              He mentions these giving an example of some of the laws. If I tell my child, "I want you to get your room clean and really good this time by dusting the shelves, and vacuuming the carpet" I'm going to go in and expect the whole room to be clean, not just those few things I mentioned.
              However, the works of the law are only the cleaning/purification works.

              Originally posted by Poly View Post
              Agreed. But this wasn't the only work of the law he expected them not to keep. He wouldn't refer to it as "The law" which is a title that incorporates all of them. Otherwise he would have said "these laws."
              Faith that Jesus' blood cleans us means no more works of the law that used to clean.

              Originally posted by Poly View Post

              So you're saying here that when he says work out your salvation, he means do everything but the ceremonial and purification laws you mentioned.
              So I'm to assume that you keep the roughly 613 laws, minus the purification and ceremonial laws. I'm guessing your clothing bill must be really high since you have to make sure not to buy anything with wool and linen mixed together.
              Jesus gave us new commands to follow.

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              • Originally posted by God's Truth View Post


                Jesus gave us new commands to follow.
                No, Jesus preached keep the law.

                "Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, "'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'" Matthew 19:16-19

                (And just as I said earlier that Paul only mentioned a few to give them an idea of 'The law', as he puts it, knowing that they should be smart enough to get the idea, again an example of Jesus mentioning several to give him an idea but they aren't the only ones. He doesn't include 'Do not rape' but we obviously know it is one of them. He expected that they wouldn't be so woodenly literal and not get the obvious.)

                “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished." Matthew 5:18

                “It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17)

                "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!" Matthew 23:23-24

                Now that we've got that out of the way, do you keep all of the law except for those that were meant for cleansing?
                Last edited by Poly; October 29th, 2019, 02:53 PM.
                "The most terrifying words in the English language are 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" - Ronald Reagan



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                • Originally posted by Poly View Post
                  No, Jesus preached keep the law.
                  No, Jesus preached the new law that required having faith in his blood.
                  Originally posted by Poly View Post
                  "Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, "'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'" Matthew 19:16-19
                  Well you can’t stop preaching those things. So you don’t think we have to obey those things?
                  Originally posted by Poly View Post
                  (And just as I said earlier that Paul only mentioned a few to give them an idea of 'The law', as he puts it, knowing that they should be smart enough to get the idea, again an example of Jesus mentioning several to give him an idea but they aren't the only ones.
                  No way was Paul rebuking the Galatians for obeying Jesus by doing right, by not murdering and stealing, etc. Paul only spoke of the purification works of the law because that is the only thing that is changed, a long with some other things like no eye for an eye, and no multiple marriages.
                  Originally posted by Poly View Post
                  He doesn't include 'Do not rape' but we obviously know it is one of them. He expected that they wouldn't be so woodenly literal and not get the obvious.)
                  You still are supposed to obey God and not rape.
                  Originally posted by Poly View Post
                  “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished." Matthew 5:18
                  Jesus fulfilled all the law and the Prophets and it has all taken place.
                  Originally posted by Poly View Post
                  “It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17)
                  The law was a shadow of Jesus. What do you think happens when the person making the shadow appears in light? No more shadows.
                  Originally posted by Poly View Post
                  "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!" Matthew 23:23-24
                  How do you get that means Jesus isn’t the sacrificed Lamb for sin once and for all and that we have to have faith in his blood and that we become the temple of the Holy Spirit who has circumcised our hearts, is the Sabbath rest and all special days fulfilled in him?
                  Think about it more. Why would they kill Jesus if he just taught the old law.
                  Originally posted by Poly View Post
                  Now that we've got that out of the way, do you keep all of the law except for those that were meant for cleansing?
                  Of course, I love God and others by obeying Jesus. I don’t murder my neighbors; I don’t steal from them; I don’t bear false witness against them; I don’t commit adultery with their spouse.
                  How do you love God and others?

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                  • Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
                    No, Jesus preached the new law that required having faith in his blood.

                    Well you can’t stop preaching those things. So you don’t think we have to obey those things?
                    Not for salvation as the Jews were required to do.

                    No way was Paul rebuking the Galatians for obeying Jesus by doing right
                    Because they were doing it for salvation, he surely was.

                    You still are supposed to obey God and not rape.
                    What is this even supposed to mean?

                    How do you get that means Jesus isn’t the sacrificed Lamb for sin once and for all and that we have to have faith in his blood and that we become the temple of the Holy Spirit who has circumcised our hearts, is the Sabbath rest and all special days fulfilled in him?
                    Think about it more. Why would they kill Jesus if he just taught the old law.
                    It was ultimately Christ's blood that saved them but Christ preached keeping the law to the Jews as well. Otherwise he wouldn't have told the Pharisees, "For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone." In other words, not just what they were doing but all of it.

                    Of course, I love God and others by obeying Jesus. I don’t murder my neighbors; I don’t steal from them; I don’t bear false witness against them; I don’t commit adultery with their spouse.

                    How do you love God and others?
                    I don't do these things either. Not because I'm afraid I'll lose my salvation but because I love Him. I realize that He will accept me just for believing. This makes me want to please Him all the more. A father wants his child to do right by him, not because the child is afraid that the dad will disown him if he doesn't but because the child seeks to please him because the father is good and loving and will love him unconditionally.

                    Please answer my earlier question. Since you think that we must obey the law for our salvation, except for cleansing laws, do you keep every other law?
                    Last edited by Poly; October 31st, 2019, 11:28 AM.
                    "The most terrifying words in the English language are 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" - Ronald Reagan



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                    • Originally posted by Poly View Post
                      Not for salvation as the Jews were required to do.
                      The Jews were required to do the works of the law to where circumcision of the flesh was the sign. No Jew is required to do that anymore.

                      Originally posted by Poly View Post
                      Because they were doing it for salvation, he surely was.
                      No, he was telling the Galatians not to get circumcised and observe special days---the purification works. Jesus cleans us now.

                      Originally posted by Poly View Post

                      What is this even supposed to mean?
                      We are not supposed to rape.
                      Originally posted by Poly View Post
                      It was ultimately Christ's blood that saved them but Christ preached keeping the law to the Jews as well. Otherwise he wouldn't have told the Pharisees, "For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone." In other words, not just what they were doing but all of it.
                      He was just pointing out how they didn’t keep the law.
                      We always have to obey whatever God commands.

                      God came and made a new covenanat.

                      Originally posted by Poly View Post
                      I don't do these things either. Not because I'm afraid I'll lose my salvation but because I love Him. I realize that He will accept me just for believing.
                      Faith alone is dead. A person has to stop sinning. If you do that good, you are obeying, like we all have to obey.

                      Originally posted by Poly View Post
                      A father wants his child to do right by him, not because the child is afraid that the dad will disown him if he doesn't but because the child seeks to please him because the father is good and loving and will love him unconditionally.
                      God does not love us unconditionally. God tells us exactly what we have to do to get saved and to stay saved.
                      Originally posted by Poly View Post

                      Please answer my earlier question. Since you think that we must obey the law for our salvation, except for cleansing laws, do you keep every other law?
                      I already did answer. Jesus gave us the new law to obey. Of course, I obey all of it.

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