ECT Mystery Babylon: Catholicism or Islam?

[binyamin7]

I am reevaluating this subject to see if I can find anything I missed previously. Rev 17-18. What are your best arguements and most to-the-point proofs one way or the other?

EDIT: Include NYC if you thing you can prove that case. So here are the best theories available:

1. Rome/ Catholicism
2. Mecca/ Islam
3. NYC/ America

It will likely become even more clear as things unfold, but examining the Text is part of obeying the command to "watch" given to us 9 times in the New Testament when talking about the end times/ eschatology.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

"Mystery Babylon" will be the world religion during the time preceding the Lord Jesus' return to the earth to reign from the throne of David on the earth. And the church at Rome will be at the forefront of this world religion:

"One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, 'Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits by many waters....The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits" (Rev.17:1,9).​

In his commentary on verse 9 Walter J. Veith writes that "There is more than one interpretation for this text. Literally speaking, Rome is known as the city of seven hills. The Vatican sits on one side of the Tiber River, facing the seven hills. In ancient times, hills were sacred high places, used to worship and offer sacrifices to deities. The systems of worship were based on salvation by works, and also included a counterfeit saviour or Messiah and mediators of both sexes. The gods that were worshipped in these places were manifestations of the sun god who was androgenic in that he/she could manifest himself/herself in the male or the female form...One further reason why the end-time religious confederacy, under the leadership of the Papacy, is called 'Babylon' is that the Babylonian system of worship has been passed down through history. Its rituals and doctrines are present in Catholicism, as well as religions such as Buddhism, Hinduism, earth religions, and even Islam."

https://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception_end-time_Babylon_Revelation_hills_Rome

 

[binyamin7]

Jerry, Thank you for your reply. Mecca Saudi Arabia is also a city on seven hills. So is New York City.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Mystery Babylon is not a religion.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Jerry, Thank you for your reply. Mecca Saudi Arabia is also a city on seven hills. So is New York City.

Babylon in the Old Testament is where most of the Jews outside of Israel lived at the end of the first exile from the land of promise.
Mystery Babylon was an unknown city where most of the Jews outside of Israel would live at the end of the second exile.
That unknown city apears to be New York City, which sits on seven hills.

 

[binyamin7]

Babylon in the Old Testament is where most of the Jews outside of Israel lived at the end of the first exile from the land of promise.
Mystery Babylon was an unknown city where most of the Jews outside of Israel would live at the end of the second exile.
That unknown city apears to be New York City, which sits on seven hills.

So you think of America/ NYC as Mystery Babylon. Can you prove it? Specifically the Text says Mystery Babylon is drunk with the blood of the saints, I do not see how that applies to America by any stretch. Rome/ Mecca? Yes.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, Thank you for your reply. Mecca Saudi Arabia is also a city on seven hills. So is New York City.

Benjamin, you might be interested in what John Walvoord, the second President of Dallas Theological Seminary, had to say on this subject:

"The Bible is full of information about Babylon as the source of false religion, the record beginning with the building of the tower of Babel (Gen. 10-11). The name 'Babel' suggests 'confusion' (Gen. 11:9). Later that name was applied to the city of Babylon which itself has a long history dating back to as early as 3,000 years before Christ...After the Persians took over Babylon in 539 B.C., they discouraged the continuation of the mystery religions of Babylon. Subsequently the Babylonian cultists moved to Pergamum (or Pergamos) where one of the seven churches of Asia Minor was located (cf. Rev. 2:12-17). Crowns in the shape of a fish head were worn by the chief priests of the Babylonian cult to honor the fish god. The crowns bore the words 'Keeper of the Bridge,' symbolic of the 'bridge' between man and Satan. The handle was adopted by the Roman emperors, who used the Latin title 'Pontifex Maximus,' which means 'Major Keeper of the Bridge.' And the same title was later used by the bishops of Rome. The pope today is often called the 'pontiff,' which comes from 'pontifex.' When the teachers of the Babylon mystery religions later moved from Pergamun to Rome, they were influential in paganizing Christianity...Babylon then is the symbol of apostasy and blasphemous substitution of idol-worship for the worship of God in Christ" (John F. Walvoord, "Revelation," in The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament, 970-971).​

 

[genuineoriginal]

So you think of America/ NYC as Mystery Babylon. Can you prove it?

The prophecy states that Mystery Babylon is a city, not an empire, so Mystery Babylon cannot be America, but can be New York City.

Revelation 17:18 18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.​

The woman is sitting on a beast, and a "beast" in prophecy refers to an empire.

Revelation 17:3 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.​

If New York City (the empire city) is Mystery Babylon, then the beast empire that New York City is sitting upon is America.

Specifically the Text says Mystery Babylon is drunk with the blood of the saints, I do not see how that applies to America by any stretch. Rome/ Mecca? Yes.

Start with finding out what these verses are talking about.

Revelation 17:4 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.​

When we look through the Bible to find another city that is accused of abominations, fornication, and harlotry we find this:

Ezekiel 16:1-2,25-34 1 Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations, ... 25 Thou hast built thy high place at every head of the way, and hast made thy beauty to be abhorred, and hast opened thy feet to every one that passed by, and multiplied thy whoredoms. 26 Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger. 27 Behold, therefore I have stretched out my hand over thee, and have diminished thine ordinary food, and delivered thee unto the will of them that hate thee, the daughters of the Philistines, which are ashamed of thy lewd way. 28 Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied. 29 Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied therewith. 30 How weak is thine heart, saith the Lord God, seeing thou doest all these things, the work of an imperious whorish woman; 31 In that thou buildest thine eminent place in the head of every way, and makest thine high place in every street; and hast not been as an harlot, in that thou scornest hire; 32 But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband! 33 They give gifts to all whores: but thou givest thy gifts to all thy lovers, and hirest them, that they may come unto thee on every side for thy whoredom. 34 And the contrary is in thee from other women in thy whoredoms, whereas none followeth thee to commit whoredoms: and in that thou givest a reward, and no reward is given unto thee, therefore thou art contrary.​

In the passage, Jerusalem committed fornication with the Egyptians, the Assyrians, and the Chaldeans.
Jerusalem sold itself to the nations around it through treaties.

In like manner, Mystery Babylon sells itself to the nations through treaties.

Revelation 18:3 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.​

The verse specifically mentions all nations, the kings of the earth, and the merchants of the earth.
The United Nations and the World Trade Center are both in New York City.
The United Nations is where all the treaties are being made (fornication).
(Mecca is not a city where all the nations of the earth make treaties, so Mecca is not Mystery Babylon.)

The "blood of the saints" may not have happened yet.
The prophecy gives some information on how to identify Mystery Babylon and the time of the beast.

Revelation 17:9-11 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.​

New York City has already been identified as a city that sits on seven hills, so that fits the prophecy.
The beast/empire has seven rulers, presumably all living at the same time.
Five former rulers, one current ruler, and one ruler that has been identified as the next ruler.
The time of the prophecy begins when the seven living rulers of the empire have been identified.
After those seven rulers have been identified, the beast/emperor will be the ruler that follows the seventh one.

Of all the nations/empires that have ever been on the earth, only the United States of America has set up a method of succession for the ruler that allows for five former rulers to be living at the same time as the current ruler and the successor to the current ruler.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Mystery Babylon is not a religion.

The words "Mystery Babylon" symbolize the religion which will be world wide in the last days. During the ages Satan has been designing this coming religion to correspond to a counterfeit Christianity. John Walvoord writes that "Nimrod, who founded Babylon (Gen. 10:8-12), had a wife known as Semiramis who founded the secret religious rites of the Babylonian mysteries, according to accounts outside the Bible. Semiramis had a son with an alledged miraculous conception who was given the name of Tammuz and in effect was a false fulfillment of the promise of the seed of the woman given to Eve (Gen.3:15)...Various religious practices were observed in connection with this false Babylonian religion, including recognition of the mother and child as God...Tammuz, according to the tradition, was killed by a wild animal and then restored to life, a satanic anticipation and counterfeit of Christ's resurrection."

 

[genuineoriginal]

The words "Mystery Babylon" symbolize the religion which will be world wide in the last days

No it doesn't.
Mystery Babylon has nothing to do with religion.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No it doesn't.
Mystery Babylon has nothing to do with religion.

Do you deny a future alliance between the Best and Mystery Babylon?:

"Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns" (Rev.17:7).​

Do you deny that people on the earth will worship the image of the beast?:

"The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly, festering sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image" (Rev.16:2).​

If you deny neither then it is impossible to say that Mystery Babylon" has "nothing" to do with religion.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Do you deny a future alliance between the Best and Mystery Babylon?:

"Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns" (Rev.17:7).​

Mystery Babylon is a city, the beast is an empire that the city is on.
This is not an alliance between the two, this is a description of proximity/location.

Do you deny that people on the earth will worship the image of the beast?:

"The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly, festering sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image" (Rev.16:2).​

People will worship the image of the beast empire/emperor.

If you deny neither then it is impossible to say that Mystery Babylon" has "nothing" to do with religion.

Your conclusion is in error.

"Mystery Babylon" is a city that has nothing to do with religion.
"Mystery Babylon" is a secular city where treaties between nations are made and where world trade takes place.

"Mystery Babylon" is not the false prophet who is thrown into the lake of fire with the beast emperor.
"Mystery Babylon" is not the second beast empire/emperor who causes people to worship the first beast empire/emperor.

The fact that the image of the beast empire/emperor is worshiped does not change "Mystery Babylon" into a religion.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Mystery Babylon is a city, the beast is an empire that the city is on.

The Beast will be a king of a revived Roman empire:

"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition" (Rev.17:10-11).​

The beast is called the "son of perdition" by Paul and it is obvious that he is a man:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (2 Thess.2:3-4).​

 

[binyamin7]

Mystery Babylon is a city, the beast is an empire that the city is on.

Please explain as clearly as you can how America/NYC fits the description of being "drunk with the blood of the saints".

 

[binyamin7]

The Beast will be a king of a revived Roman empire:

Of course the Eastern arm of the Romans empire is currently in Turkey- which is Islamic and is calling for an Islamic superstate. What in your mind makes this Rome and not Mecca.
Both have been drunk with the blood of the saints.
Both are on seven hills.
Saudi is one of the top $ lobbyists in American politics, Rome nowhere on the top 10 list: https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...nfluence-u-s-politics/?utm_term=.882c2475a730


So what would you say in the Text shows this is not Mecca/ Saudi Arabia but is instead Rome?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So what would you say in the Text shows this is not Mecca/ Saudi Arabia but is instead Rome?

The most important consideration is the fact that Mystery Bablyon is a counterfeit Christianity and at this time the church at Rome is the dominant religion in Mexico and South America so it already has a strong base and it also has a large presence in all of the western countries. Besides that, much of their teaching today has from the beginning come straight from the mystery religions.

Satan is the one responsible for the counterfeit version of the glorious gospel of the grace of God that is preached in the church at Rome:

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).​

How has Satan blinded the mind of those perishing to the gospel so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of God's grace? First of all, his agents in the perverting of the gospel are described in the following passage by Paul:

"For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve" (2 Cor.11:13-15).​

The early church adopted the rite of water baptism from the Eleusinian Mysteries of Greece into the church, a rite that denies the basic truth that salvation is by faith alone because Rome teaches baptismal regeneration:

"Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit ('vitae spiritualis ianua'), and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: 'Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word.'" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part Two: "The Celebration of the Christiian Mystery").​

Sir Robert Anderson explains that the nomenclature of the rite of water baptism in the church at Rome matches that of this Greek mystery cult:

"So early as the time of Justin Martyr we find a name given to baptism which comes straight from the Greek mysteries - the name "enlightenment." It came to be the constant technical term...The name 'seal,' which also came from the mysteries and from some forms of foreign cult, was used partly of those who had passed the test and who were 'consignati,' as Tertullian calls them, partly of those who were actually sealed upon the forehead in sign of a new ownership...The term musterion is applied to baptism, and with it comes a whole series of technical terms unknown to the Apostolic Church, but well known to the mysteries, and explicable only through ideas and usages peculiar to them..." (Sir Robert Anderson, The Bible or the Church? 123).​

Even today in the Catechism of the Catholic Church we see these terms applied to their rite of water baptism:

"This bath is called enlightenment, because those who receive this [catechetical] instruction are enlightened in their understanding . . . .'Having received in Baptism the Word, 'the true light that enlightens every man,' the person baptized has been 'enlightened,' he becomes a "son of light," indeed, he becomes "light" himself..." (CCC #1216).​

"Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation. Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated." (CCC #1272).​

In between Catechism #1233 and #1234 we read: "The mystagogy of the celebration."

There are many things which Rome has adopted from the mystery religions. Sir Charles Eliot wrote that "both Buddhism and Christianity, while abolishing animal sacrifices, were ready to sanction old religios customs: both contenanced the performance before an altar or a ritual including incense, flowers, lights and singing. This recognition of old and widespread rites go far to explain the extraordinary similiarity of Buddhist services in Tibet and Japan (both of which derived their rituality ultimately from India) to Roman Catholic ceremonial. Yet when all allowances for similiar causes and coincidences, it is hard to believe that a collection of such practices as clerical celibacy, confession, the veneration of relics, the use of rosary and bells can have originated indepently in both religions" (Sir Charles Eliot, Hindu and Buddahism: An Historical Sketch, Volume III [Surrey, England: Curzon Press, 1998], 443).

The church at Rome already has a strong base from which to expand all over the world and be the leading force in a future Mystery Religion, which will be the world's religion in the last days. Mecca has nothing which even comes close to the church at Rome in this respect.

 

[binyamin7]

The church at Rome already has a strong base from which to expand all over the world and be the leading force in a future Mystery Religion, which will be the world's religion in the last days. Mecca has nothing which even comes close to the church at Rome in this respect.

I'm shocked you have not been water baptized and recommend you do it immediately. BUT let's stay on topic.

Islam has about 500 million more adherents than Catholicism and the influence is very far reaching. I have already pointed out the Saudis are mega donors in the political arena in ways Rome isn't even remotely close to. Certain aspects on Antichrist seem to indicate Islam will be involved (see 1 John 2:22-23, Rev 20:4, and all the nations specifically listed as being judged in the coming wars are also currently Islamic).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I'm shocked you have not been water baptized and recommend you do it immediately. BUT let's stay on topic.

I've been baptized with water twice. But not by anyone representing the church at Rome. Does it still count?

Islam has about 500 million more adherents than Catholicism and the influence is very far reaching. I have already pointed out the Saudis are mega donors in the political arena in ways Rome isn't even remotely close to. Certain aspects on Antichrist seem to indicate Islam will be involved (see 1 John 2:22-23, Rev 20:4, and all the nations specifically listed as being judged in the coming wars are also currently Islamic).

Could you give me any information concerning Islam and any connection to the mystery religion of Babylon?

Thanks!

 

[binyamin7]

I've been baptized with water twice. But not by anyone representing the church at Rome. Does it still count?

Oh I misunderstood what you were getting at. I have never experienced the Catholic sprinkling they mistakenly call baptism (baptizo means to submerge) either.

Could you give me any information concerning Islam and any connection to the mystery religion of Babylon?

Thanks!

So Islam has a lot of interesting parallels to Antichrist.

1. Islam adamantly denies the Son of God. (1 John 2:22-23)
2. Islam beheads people as a matter of doctrine, Europeans have not for a long time. (Rev 20:4)
3. Nations antichrist rules are Islamic (Ezek 38-39, Joel 3, Ps 83, Dan 11:43, etc)
4. One of the biggest financial lobby's in the world.
5. Islamic prophecies about their "Mahdi" parallel prophecies about Antichrist.
6. Does not regard/honor the desire of women (Dan 11:37).
7. Acts on behalf of a "god of fortresses" or war. (Dan 11:38)
8. Drunk with blood of the saints has killed more Christians and Jews than any other single force.
9. Is called the "great whore" or "greatest whore"- Has a half billion more adherents than Catholicism.
10. Isaiah 34: 9-10 prophesy of a judgement of "burning pitch" or oil from an unfulfilled judgement.
11. Ps 83:11/ Judges 8:21 Zebba and Zelmunna/ Crescent ornaments
12. "Changes times and law" Dan 7:25- Islam insists on Shariah Law and their lunar calendar.

Here is one source you could check I haven't watched the whole thing though: https://youtu.be/6jeJPgsAQvg

Now I still have some questions I am trying to get the answers to but this information does make us at least take notice.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Now I still have some questions I am trying to get the answers to but this information does make us at least take notice.

Nothing you listed really ties Mystery Babylon to Islam while there is an abundance of evidence which ties Mystery Babylon to the church at Rome. As mentioned earlier John Walvoord wrote that Nimrod and Semiramis "founded the secret religious rites of the Babylonian mysteries, according to accounts outside the Bible. Semiramis had a son with an alledged miraculous conception who was given the name of Tammuz and in effect was a false fulfillment of the promise of the seed of the woman given to Eve (Gen.3:15)...Various religious practices were observed in connection with this false Babylonian religion, including recognition of the mother and child as God...Tammuz, according to the tradition, was killed by a wild animal and then restored to life, a satanic anticipation and counterfeit of Christ's resurrection."

We also read the following about Nimrod and Semiramis:

"Nimrod and his mother (Semiramis) became the chief entities of worship as a Madonna and child. This belief and practice spread to Egypt, where the names of the gods were Isis and Osiris....In Rome they were called Fortuna and Jupiter. Throughout the world we still find the remnants of mother and child worship to this day. It is no surprise that this same system still exists at the end of the age. It is called "Mystery Babylon" (Rev 17:5). ..The ancient Germans worshipped the virgin HERTHA with the child in the arms of his mother. The Scandinavians called her DISA pictured with her child. In Egypt, the mother and her child were worshiped as ISIS with the infant OSIRIS or HORUS seated on his mother's lap.In India, the mother and child were called DEVAKI and KRISHNA, and also ISI and ISWARA as they are worshiped to this day.In Asia, they were known as CYBELE and DEOIU" SEMIRAMIS -"Queen of Heaven" "Mother of God".

https://endrtimes.blogspot.com/2009/08/semiramis-queen-of-heaven-mother-of-god.html​

Today the church at Rome calls Mary the "Queen of Heaven". Pope Pius XII said:

"From the earliest ages of the catholic church a Christian people, whether in time of triumph or more especially in time of crisis, has addressed prayers of petition and hymns of praise and veneration to the Queen of Heaven. And never has that hope wavered which they placed in the Mother of the Divine King, Jesus Christ; nor has that faith ever failed by which we are taught that Mary, the Virgin Mother of God, reigns with a mother's solicitude over the entire world, just as she is crowned in heavenly blessedness with the glory of a Queen." (AD CAELI REGINAM, ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII , October, 11, 1954).​

http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-x...s/hf_p-xii_enc_11101954_ad-caeli-reginam.html

Although Peter said that there is no other name under heaven whereby people can be saved Rome teaches that no one can be saved apart from Mary.

There is nothing about Islam that fits a counterfeit version of Christianity which is called Mystery Babylon but the church at Rome is easily be shown to be a counterfeit religion in the mold of Mystery Babylon.