ECT Mystery Babylon: Catholicism or Islam?

binyamin7

Active member
There is nothing about Islam that fits a counterfeit version of Christianity which is called Mystery Babylon but the church at Rome is easily be shown to be a counterfeit religion in the mold of Mystery Babylon.
So what I am wondering is if the beast and the 10 nations are primarily Islamic but they form an alliance with the woman who is Rome. I am postulating here. Now here is why I think it may work, in 17:16 we see the beast actually hates the harlet and turns on her. If this is an alliance between an Islamic empire/ reemerged Caliphate and Rome/ Catholicism through a defected pope, that could easily happen.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
The Beast will be a king of a revived Roman empire:
No, that is an interpretation mistake that has been passed down for many centuries.
Nothing in the Bible says the beast in Revelation will be a revived Roman empire.

The beast is called the "son of perdition" by Paul and it is obvious that he is a man:
In Bible prophecy, a beast is an empire, the power of the empire, and the ruler of that empire that wields the power of the empire.
If you are just looking at a man that is not the ruler of an empire, then you are not looking at the beast.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Matthew 23:37, Galatians 4:25, Revelation 11:8, etc., show that the harlot is Jerusalem.

It is impossible that Jerusalem could be the harlot spoken of in the book of Revelation because in the future the people of the earth will go to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Jesus Christ who is the LORD Almighty:

"Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain" (Zech.14:16-17).​

Your identification of Jerusalem as the harlot is the same as most of those in the Preterist camp and it shows just how ridiculous their teaching is.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
So what I am wondering is if the beast and the 10 nations are primarily Islamic but they form an alliance with the woman who is Rome. I am postulating here. Now here is why I think it may work, in 17:16 we see the beast actually hates the harlet and turns on her. If this is an alliance between an Islamic empire/ reemerged Caliphate and Rome/ Catholicism through a defected pope, that could easily happen.

I think that you are right that there will be an alliance with Rome but I think that alliance will include all nations and not just the Arabic countries.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
In Bible prophecy, a beast is an empire, the power of the empire, and the ruler of that empire that wields the power of the empire.
If you are just looking at a man that is not the ruler of an empire, then you are not looking at the beast.

The Bible states in no uncertain terms that the beast will be a king:

The Beast will be a king of a revived Roman empire:

"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition" (Rev.17:10-11).​

The beast is called the "son of perdition" by Paul and it is obvious that he is a man:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (2 Thess.2:3-4).​
 

genuineoriginal

New member
The Bible states in no uncertain terms that the beast will be a king:
I already addressed that.
The beast is an empire, the power of the empire, and the ruler of that empire that wields the power of the empire.

Your problem appears to be an unwillingness to accept the full meaning of "beast" in prophecy.

The Beast will be a king of a revived Roman empire:
That is a false interpretation.
The empire will not be a revived Roman empire.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Please explain as clearly as you can how America/NYC fits the description of being "drunk with the blood of the saints".
New York City is where the United Nations is waging war upon Jews and Christians.
The United Nations’ Shameful Treatment of Persecuted Christians
The United Nation's anti-Israel bias is undeniable -- Let's stop pretending otherwise
The UN Declares War on Judeo-Christian Civilization

As far as the United States itself goes, in 1993 the Federal government undertook an exercise to determine how difficult it would be to wage war against Christians, which resulted in nearly 80 deaths in Waco Texas.
 

User Name

Greatest poster ever
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It is impossible that Jerusalem could be the harlot spoken of in the book of Revelation because in the future the people of the earth will go to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Jesus Christ who is the LORD Almighty

It is impossible for Mystery Babylon to be Jerusalem.
Jerusalem is the city of promise in the land of promise.
Babylon is the city of exile outside of the land of promise.


There are two Jerusalems: 1) the Jerusalem which now is (Gal 4:25); and 2) the Jerusalem of millennial prophecy.

The "Jerusalem which now is" is "the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her" (Matt 23:37), and "the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified" (Rev 11:8). It is this Jerusalem which is "drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus" (Rev 17:6). Compare Revelation 17:18 with Rev 11:8 and you will see that "the great city" being referred to is Jerusalem.

The Jerusalem of millennial prophecy is New Jerusalem, which will come down from God out of heaven (Rev 21:10).
 
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binyamin7

Active member
I think that you are right that there will be an alliance with Rome but I think that alliance will include all nations and not just the Arabic countries.

So here is my problem with Rome being it. As we go into chapter 18, read Rev 18:11-17:

11 “And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore: 12 merchandise of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble; 13 and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men. 14 The fruit that your soul longed for has gone from you, and all the things which are rich and splendid have [a]gone from you, and you shall find them no more at all. 15 The merchants of these things, who became rich by her, will stand at a distance for fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls! 17 For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.’ Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance


Does this really look like a description of Rome? Does this fit NYC or Mecca better?
 

binyamin7

Active member
New York City is where the United Nations is waging war upon Jews and Christians.
The United Nations’ Shameful Treatment of Persecuted Christians
The United Nation's anti-Israel bias is undeniable -- Let's stop pretending otherwise
The UN Declares War on Judeo-Christian Civilization

As far as the United States itself goes, in 1993 the Federal government undertook an exercise to determine how difficult it would be to wage war against Christians, which resulted in nearly 80 deaths in Waco Texas.

That looks like a stretch for me. Rome and Mecca seem to fit that description much better (Rev 17:16). However chapter 18:11-17 seems to fit NYC best.
 

binyamin7

Active member
There are two Jerusalems: 1) the Jerusalem which now is (Gal 4:25); and 2) the Jerusalem of as yet unfulfilled prophecy.

The "Jerusalem which now is" is "the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her (Matt 23:37)," and "the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified (Rev 11:8)." It is this Jerusalem which is "drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus (Rev 17:6)." Compare Revelation 17:18 with Rev 11:8 and you will see that "the great city" being referred to is Jerusalem.

The Jerusalem of unfulfilled prophecy is New Jerusalem, which will come down from God out of heaven (Rev 21:10).

I'm sorry but Jerusalem does not "reign over the kings of the earth" vs18, or fit these passages: 18:3, 18:9, 18:11-17, 18:23.
 

binyamin7

Active member
Here is something to add. In Rev 18:23 it tells us that the whole world is high on Mystery Babylon's drugs- the word for sorcery here is pharmekia where we get the words pharmacy/ pharmaceuticals from. So this is interesting because Mecca and more broadly Islam is a huge exporter of poppy seeds/ heroin. However NYC and more broadly America is the #1 researcher of new pharmaceuticals on the planet and has been one of the biggest creators of drugs for many decades.
 

Rondonmonson

New member
I am reevaluating this subject to see if I can find anything I missed previously. Rev 17-18. What are your best arguements and most to-the-point proofs one way or the other?

EDIT: Include NYC if you thing you can prove that case. So here are the best theories available:

1. Rome/ Catholicism
2. Mecca/ Islam
3. NYC/ America

It will likely become even more clear as things unfold, but examining the Text is part of obeying the command to "watch" given to us 9 times in the New Testament when talking about the end times/ eschatology.

Its not a City, a Nation, the RCC or Islam, as a matter of fact calling it Mystery Babylon is wrong from jump street. Its the Harlot that is being described and put on display for Judgment by God in Rev. 17, then John gives us FOUR DESCRIPTIONS of who she is !! Shes a Mystery BUT, we are about to be told what the Mystery is, see verse 7 where he EXPLAINS the Mystery !! Anyway, she is a Mystery, {referring to the Mystery Religions spread all around the ancient world where they always had a Sun god, Moon goddess and a Son of God that was REBORN. It's always a TRI HEAD !! But Mystery was just one description, then we had Babylon {Where this false Religion got started via Nimrod, who married his mother Semiramis and their son was Tammuz. Then of course we get two more descriptors of who the Harlot is, she is the Mother of Harlots {Mother of ALL False Religion}and shes an Abomination unto all the earth {Serving any god but God is an Abomination.

The Harlot is ALL FALSE RELIGION, the Four Descriptors just describe ALL FALSE RELIGION. That is why the water represents all Peoples, Tongues, Nations etc. She is killed off by the Kings in League with the Beast is Rev. 17:16, and that is because there is no room for any other gods in the Anti-Christs reign of terror !! He must be worshiped as the ONLY GOD, thus the Harlot is destroyed and a BEAST over Religion {False Prophet} is brought in, he will be a Jewish High Priest like unto Jason who bribed Antiochus to become High Priest, having his Pious brother Onias III, a High Priest, killed, then he tried to Hellenize the Jews but that brought forth the Maccabean Revolt. Thus Antiochus and Jason are the FORERUNNERS unto the real duo !!

John was REMINDED in verse 18 about WHAT HE SAW in the Vision, Babylon represents that city because the Harlot thrived in Babylon. But in the book of Revelation Babylon stands for the WHOLE WORLD, and we can see that in Rev. 16:19, where God calls the Nations He defeats BABYLON THE GREAT.

Rev. 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts Earthquake/Jesus Returns}, and the cities of the nations fell: {Babylon FALLS} and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

So God sees the NATIONS He defeats as Babylon, so who were they ? Lets look at the 6th Vial.

Rev. 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Sothe Nations God DEFEATS are the E.U. and Beast, the Kings of the East and the Kings of the WHOLE WORLD !! So who is Babylon ? THE WHOLE WORLD !!

Now think of it like this, we have a TWO SIDED COIN, False Religion {Hatlot} and False Governance {Beast Governments}.......The Harlot RIDES the Beast !! GET IT ?

Rev. 17 is about the Harlot getting Judged, the Kings in league with the Beast kills her off, he demand t be the ONLY GOD WORSHIPED, which means he will kill of Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, chase Israel into the Wilderness and kill off the Remnant Church who missed the Rapture {Rev. 12:17}.

Rev. 18 is the Governments of the WHOLE WORLD {Babylon} getting judged.What better way to DESTROY Babylons COMMERCE than to hit her with the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Plagues ? The Seals are the Anti-Christ, he kills about 2 billion people via wars, famine via wars, murder etc. we see them under the Altar in Seal number 5, the Sixth Seal announces Gods Wrath supernaturally, but it starts with the First Seal.

Then the Trumpets burn all the grass and 1/3 of the trees, 1/3 of the sea is turned to blood and 1/3 of the sea creatures {shrimp/fish} die, 1/3 of the ships are destroyed, 1/3 of the fresh drinking waters are poisoned, then we have the Last Three Trumpets which are the Last Three Woes,A Demon Horde in Woe #1, a 200 Million angelic Army that slays 1.5 Billion people and the Last Woe is ALL 7 Vials !!

So of course the WHOLE WORLDS COMMERCE is destroyed in Rev. 18. And the World is become a Habitation of devils, Satan is cast to earth and Apollyon is released from the bottomless pit. And when God says come out of her my people, lest you partake in her sins and plagues, that is God calling Israel to Flee Judea unto Petra.

God Destroys Babylon in ONE HOUR.....Just like the Kings rule with the Beast for ONE HOUR {42 Months}. And in ONE DAY she is Destroyed the DAY OF THE LORD which last for at least 42 months of Wrath.

The Harlot = All False Religion.

Babylon = The Whole World or Satan's Dark Kingdom on earth.

The Harlot RIDES the Beast !!
 

Vail Lifted

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It will during the end times.

Right. Jerusalem of the future will be worst than she was in the past. The little horn of Daniel 7 represents a Jewish king who will make a covenant with the Assyrian (of Isaiah) or Gog (of Ezekiel) or the beast that rises from the sea (of Revelation).
 
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