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Mystery Babylon: Catholicism or Islam?

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  • ECT: Mystery Babylon: Catholicism or Islam?

    I am reevaluating this subject to see if I can find anything I missed previously. Rev 17-18. What are your best arguements and most to-the-point proofs one way or the other?

    EDIT: Include NYC if you thing you can prove that case. So here are the best theories available:

    1. Rome/ Catholicism
    2. Mecca/ Islam
    3. NYC/ America

    It will likely become even more clear as things unfold, but examining the Text is part of obeying the command to "watch" given to us 9 times in the New Testament when talking about the end times/ eschatology.
    Last edited by binyamin7; January 27th, 2019, 04:08 PM.
    "Prove all things. Hold fast that which is true."

  • #2
    "Mystery Babylon" will be the world religion during the time preceding the Lord Jesus' return to the earth to reign from the throne of David on the earth. And the church at Rome will be at the forefront of this world religion:
    "One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, 'Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits by many waters....The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits" (Rev.17:1,9).

    In his commentary on verse 9 Walter J. Veith writes that "There is more than one interpretation for this text. Literally speaking, Rome is known as the city of seven hills. The Vatican sits on one side of the Tiber River, facing the seven hills. In ancient times, hills were sacred high places, used to worship and offer sacrifices to deities. The systems of worship were based on salvation by works, and also included a counterfeit saviour or Messiah and mediators of both sexes. The gods that were worshipped in these places were manifestations of the sun god who was androgenic in that he/she could manifest himself/herself in the male or the female form...One further reason why the end-time religious confederacy, under the leadership of the Papacy, is called 'Babylon' is that the Babylonian system of worship has been passed down through history. Its rituals and doctrines are present in Catholicism, as well as religions such as Buddhism, Hinduism, earth religions, and even Islam."

    https://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-dec...ion_hills_Rome

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    • #3
      Jerry, Thank you for your reply. Mecca Saudi Arabia is also a city on seven hills. So is New York City.
      "Prove all things. Hold fast that which is true."

      Comment


      • #4
        Mystery Babylon is not a religion.
        Learn to read what is written.

        _____
        The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
        ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by binyamin7 View Post
          Jerry, Thank you for your reply. Mecca Saudi Arabia is also a city on seven hills. So is New York City.
          Babylon in the Old Testament is where most of the Jews outside of Israel lived at the end of the first exile from the land of promise.
          Mystery Babylon was an unknown city where most of the Jews outside of Israel would live at the end of the second exile.
          That unknown city apears to be New York City, which sits on seven hills.
          Learn to read what is written.

          _____
          The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
          ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
            Babylon in the Old Testament is where most of the Jews outside of Israel lived at the end of the first exile from the land of promise.
            Mystery Babylon was an unknown city where most of the Jews outside of Israel would live at the end of the second exile.
            That unknown city apears to be New York City, which sits on seven hills.
            So you think of America/ NYC as Mystery Babylon. Can you prove it? Specifically the Text says Mystery Babylon is drunk with the blood of the saints, I do not see how that applies to America by any stretch. Rome/ Mecca? Yes.
            "Prove all things. Hold fast that which is true."

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by binyamin7 View Post
              Jerry, Thank you for your reply. Mecca Saudi Arabia is also a city on seven hills. So is New York City.
              Benjamin, you might be interested in what John Walvoord, the second President of Dallas Theological Seminary, had to say on this subject:
              "The Bible is full of information about Babylon as the source of false religion, the record beginning with the building of the tower of Babel (Gen. 10-11). The name 'Babel' suggests 'confusion' (Gen. 11:9). Later that name was applied to the city of Babylon which itself has a long history dating back to as early as 3,000 years before Christ...After the Persians took over Babylon in 539 B.C., they discouraged the continuation of the mystery religions of Babylon. Subsequently the Babylonian cultists moved to Pergamum (or Pergamos) where one of the seven churches of Asia Minor was located (cf. Rev. 2:12-17). Crowns in the shape of a fish head were worn by the chief priests of the Babylonian cult to honor the fish god. The crowns bore the words 'Keeper of the Bridge,' symbolic of the 'bridge' between man and Satan. The handle was adopted by the Roman emperors, who used the Latin title 'Pontifex Maximus,' which means 'Major Keeper of the Bridge.' And the same title was later used by the bishops of Rome. The pope today is often called the 'pontiff,' which comes from 'pontifex.' When the teachers of the Babylon mystery religions later moved from Pergamun to Rome, they were influential in paganizing Christianity...Babylon then is the symbol of apostasy and blasphemous substitution of idol-worship for the worship of God in Christ" (John F. Walvoord, "Revelation," in The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament, 970-971).

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              • #8
                Originally posted by binyamin7 View Post
                So you think of America/ NYC as Mystery Babylon. Can you prove it?
                The prophecy states that Mystery Babylon is a city, not an empire, so Mystery Babylon cannot be America, but can be New York City.

                Revelation 17:18
                18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.


                The woman is sitting on a beast, and a "beast" in prophecy refers to an empire.

                Revelation 17:3
                3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.


                If New York City (the empire city) is Mystery Babylon, then the beast empire that New York City is sitting upon is America.

                Originally posted by binyamin7 View Post
                Specifically the Text says Mystery Babylon is drunk with the blood of the saints, I do not see how that applies to America by any stretch. Rome/ Mecca? Yes.
                Start with finding out what these verses are talking about.

                Revelation 17:4
                4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
                5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.


                When we look through the Bible to find another city that is accused of abominations, fornication, and harlotry we find this:

                Ezekiel 16:1-2,25-34
                1 Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
                2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,
                ...
                25 Thou hast built thy high place at every head of the way, and hast made thy beauty to be abhorred, and hast opened thy feet to every one that passed by, and multiplied thy whoredoms.
                26 Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger.
                27 Behold, therefore I have stretched out my hand over thee, and have diminished thine ordinary food, and delivered thee unto the will of them that hate thee, the daughters of the Philistines, which are ashamed of thy lewd way.
                28 Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied.
                29 Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied therewith.
                30 How weak is thine heart, saith the Lord God, seeing thou doest all these things, the work of an imperious whorish woman;
                31 In that thou buildest thine eminent place in the head of every way, and makest thine high place in every street; and hast not been as an harlot, in that thou scornest hire;
                32 But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband!
                33 They give gifts to all whores: but thou givest thy gifts to all thy lovers, and hirest them, that they may come unto thee on every side for thy whoredom.
                34 And the contrary is in thee from other women in thy whoredoms, whereas none followeth thee to commit whoredoms: and in that thou givest a reward, and no reward is given unto thee, therefore thou art contrary.


                In the passage, Jerusalem committed fornication with the Egyptians, the Assyrians, and the Chaldeans.
                Jerusalem sold itself to the nations around it through treaties.

                In like manner, Mystery Babylon sells itself to the nations through treaties.

                Revelation 18:3
                3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.


                The verse specifically mentions all nations, the kings of the earth, and the merchants of the earth.
                The United Nations and the World Trade Center are both in New York City.
                The United Nations is where all the treaties are being made (fornication).
                (Mecca is not a city where all the nations of the earth make treaties, so Mecca is not Mystery Babylon.)

                The "blood of the saints" may not have happened yet.
                The prophecy gives some information on how to identify Mystery Babylon and the time of the beast.

                Revelation 17:9-11
                9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
                10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
                11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.


                New York City has already been identified as a city that sits on seven hills, so that fits the prophecy.
                The beast/empire has seven rulers, presumably all living at the same time.
                Five former rulers, one current ruler, and one ruler that has been identified as the next ruler.
                The time of the prophecy begins when the seven living rulers of the empire have been identified.
                After those seven rulers have been identified, the beast/emperor will be the ruler that follows the seventh one.

                Of all the nations/empires that have ever been on the earth, only the United States of America has set up a method of succession for the ruler that allows for five former rulers to be living at the same time as the current ruler and the successor to the current ruler.
                Learn to read what is written.

                _____
                The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                  Mystery Babylon is not a religion.
                  The words "Mystery Babylon" symbolize the religion which will be world wide in the last days. During the ages Satan has been designing this coming religion to correspond to a counterfeit Christianity. John Walvoord writes that "Nimrod, who founded Babylon (Gen. 10:8-12), had a wife known as Semiramis who founded the secret religious rites of the Babylonian mysteries, according to accounts outside the Bible. Semiramis had a son with an alledged miraculous conception who was given the name of Tammuz and in effect was a false fulfillment of the promise of the seed of the woman given to Eve (Gen.3:15)...Various religious practices were observed in connection with this false Babylonian religion, including recognition of the mother and child as God...Tammuz, according to the tradition, was killed by a wild animal and then restored to life, a satanic anticipation and counterfeit of Christ's resurrection."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                    The words "Mystery Babylon" symbolize the religion which will be world wide in the last days
                    No it doesn't.
                    Mystery Babylon has nothing to do with religion.
                    Learn to read what is written.

                    _____
                    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                      No it doesn't.
                      Mystery Babylon has nothing to do with religion.
                      Do you deny a future alliance between the Best and Mystery Babylon?:
                      "Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns" (Rev.17:7).

                      Do you deny that people on the earth will worship the image of the beast?:

                      "The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly, festering sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image"
                      (Rev.16:2).

                      If you deny neither then it is impossible to say that Mystery Babylon" has "nothing" to do with religion.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                        Do you deny a future alliance between the Best and Mystery Babylon?:
                        "Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns" (Rev.17:7).
                        Mystery Babylon is a city, the beast is an empire that the city is on.
                        This is not an alliance between the two, this is a description of proximity/location.

                        Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                        Do you deny that people on the earth will worship the image of the beast?:

                        "The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly, festering sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image"
                        (Rev.16:2).
                        People will worship the image of the beast empire/emperor.

                        Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                        If you deny neither then it is impossible to say that Mystery Babylon" has "nothing" to do with religion.
                        Your conclusion is in error.

                        "Mystery Babylon" is a city that has nothing to do with religion.
                        "Mystery Babylon" is a secular city where treaties between nations are made and where world trade takes place.

                        "Mystery Babylon" is not the false prophet who is thrown into the lake of fire with the beast emperor.
                        "Mystery Babylon" is not the second beast empire/emperor who causes people to worship the first beast empire/emperor.

                        The fact that the image of the beast empire/emperor is worshiped does not change "Mystery Babylon" into a religion.
                        Learn to read what is written.

                        _____
                        The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                        ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                          Mystery Babylon is a city, the beast is an empire that the city is on.
                          The Beast will be a king of a revived Roman empire:

                          "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition"
                          (Rev.17:10-11).

                          The beast is called the "son of perdition" by Paul and it is obvious that he is a man:
                          "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (2 Thess.2:3-4).
                          Last edited by Jerry Shugart; January 9th, 2019, 05:43 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                            Mystery Babylon is a city, the beast is an empire that the city is on.
                            Please explain as clearly as you can how America/NYC fits the description of being "drunk with the blood of the saints".
                            "Prove all things. Hold fast that which is true."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                              The Beast will be a king of a revived Roman empire:
                              Of course the Eastern arm of the Romans empire is currently in Turkey- which is Islamic and is calling for an Islamic superstate. What in your mind makes this Rome and not Mecca.
                              Both have been drunk with the blood of the saints.
                              Both are on seven hills.
                              Saudi is one of the top $ lobbyists in American politics, Rome nowhere on the top 10 list: https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...=.882c2475a730


                              So what would you say in the Text shows this is not Mecca/ Saudi Arabia but is instead Rome?
                              "Prove all things. Hold fast that which is true."

                              Comment

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