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  • #16
    Originally posted by oatmeal View Post
    Interesting opinion.

    Did Jesus come down from the right hand of God and personally teach you that or did you get to know Jesus from another source?

    What source?

    a. The written logos of God

    b. men's opinions

    How accurate is your knowledge of Jesus Christ?

    What is the accurate source of information about Jesus Christ?

    a. the written logos of God

    b. men's opinions

    Where can a person obtain perfect information on Jesus Christ?

    a. the written logos of God

    b. men's opinions

    What is the source of your beliefs?

    a. the written logos of God

    b. men's opinions
    Where did you learn that Jesus is perfect?

    a. the written logos of God

    b. men's opinions
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

    Pro scripture = Protestant

    Comment


    • #17
      If you truly don't know the answer to your question then you should assess whether you actually have a relationship with God. Are you born again? Have you had an encounter with the living God?

      God and His son, are real. They're not a story in a book. They actually exist and commune with us, who are born again and regenerated. It's an existential reality, independent of any human collection of writings or opinions. My relationship with God isn't based on a book or the human interpretation of a book. I wasn't drawn to Jesus Christ, and convicted of my sins, by reading the bible. That can happen, because the bible contains divine truth. Enough truth, to guide someone to Jesus. But I personally, didn't come to Christ, as a result of reading the bible. I heard the gospel preached and the heavenly Father drew me to His Son. I was convicted of my sin and miraculously realized my need for a savior.

      I was baptized in water and in the spirit. Not from a book, but within the church. Surrounded by other born again believers. The body of Christ on earth. If every bible on the planet, disapeared today, I would still have a relationship with Jesus. You exist, not because someone wrote a biography about you. You have your family, friends, and interact with them, whether they read your biography or not. Reading a biography about someone, doesn't imply that you know them. If you think your relationship with someone relies on a book, then perhaps you should question whether you actually have a relationship with that individual.

      What book or collection of writings did Enoch have? Did Enoch exist? If he existed, did he have a book? He walked with God and God took him, right? Did Noah have a book? Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? What book did they have, that supposedly ensured and secured their relationship with God? This is an existential reality, that has nothing to do with confessing a set or list of doctrines or your personal fallible interpretation of the supposedly infallible book. Even if the book you have, is actually infallible, you aren't infallible. You're fallible. Your understanding, your interpretation of the supposed "infallible book", is fallible.

      The only people that feel threatened by this reality, this truth, are those who don't actually have a relationship with the living God. They're not born again, nor do they have the Holy Spirit. They have a book, they have knowledge of this book. They have doctrines, philosophy. They form their opinions based on a book and spend a lot of time and energy, defending their opinions. They have God in a box, well defined and quantified. Everything labeled and categorized. This makes God safe and controllable. You can't come to terms with the mystery or the questions, reality presents you with. So you demand that everything be revealed and answered to you at once, in an "infallible book". Where does faith factor into this contrived, carnal arrangement?

      You have your emotional, imaginary, sack full of answers, rather than a scary sack full of questions. Unfortunately, this world will only hand you a sack full of questions (hence, the need for faith. That's the way God designed this world. You need faith, not absolute certainty). There's no warm and fuzzy sack full of answers (There are no infallible books in this fallen, fallible world. Sorry my friend, but that warm and fuzzy teddy bear, with all of the answers, clearly defined and spelled out, doesn't exist. It's an idol, that you've created, to compensate for your lack of faith and a genuine relationship with God).

      So I have, as well as all born again children of God, a divine deposit of knowledge and wisdom. We have the holy spirit, the presence of God in our lives and His Christ. Those of us who are regenerated in Jesus, have an actual relationship with Jesus and the presence of God manifests and interacts, communes with us, personally and in our congregations. When we gather to praise and worship, to pray, to preach the gospel, we live what you read. What you read, in your book, we live. It's our experience. You either have it, or you don't.

      That's my answer to your question. And now I close with my own questions. On what grounds do you, impose, this collection of writings, upon the children of almighty God? Who gave you the authority, to demand or impose anything, upon anyone, in respect to Jesus and His gospel? On what grounds do you assert that this collection of writings, you call "the bible", is the infallible and inerrant word of almighty God? Let's examine the veracity of your claims.
      Last edited by RealityJerk; November 21, 2017, 07:19 PM. Reason: Typos

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by RealityJerk View Post
        If you truly don't know the answer to your question then you should assess whether you actually have a relationship with God. Are you born again? Have you had an encounter with the living God?

        God and His son, are real. They're not a story in a book. They actually exist and commune with us, who are born again and regenerated. It's an existential reality, independent of any human collection of writings or opinions. My relationship with God isn't based on a book or the human interpretation of a book. I wasn't drawn to Jesus Christ, and convicted of my sins, by reading the bible. That can happen, because the bible contains divine truth. Enough truth, to guide someone to Jesus. But I personally, didn't come to Christ, as a result of reading the bible. I heard the gospel preached and the heavenly Father drew me to His Son. I was convicted of my sin and miraculously realized my need for a savior.

        I was baptized in water and in the spirit. Not from a book, but within the church. Surrounded by other born again believers. The body of Christ on earth. If every bible on the planet, disapeared today, I would still have a relationship with Jesus. You exist, not because someone wrote a biography about you. You have your family, friends, and interact with them, whether they read your biography or not. Reading a biography about someone, doesn't imply that you know them. If you think your relationship with someone relies on a book, then perhaps you should question whether you actually have a relationship with that individual.

        What book or collection of writings did Enoch have? Did Enoch exist? If he existed, did he have a book? He walked with God and God took him, right? Did Noah have a book? Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? What book did they have, that supposedly ensured and secured their relationship with God? This is an existential reality, that has nothing to do with confessing a set or list of doctrines or your personal fallible interpretation of the supposedly infallible book. Even if the book you have, is actually infallible, you aren't infallible. You're fallible. Your understanding, your interpretation of the supposed "infallible book", is fallible.

        The only people that feel threatened by this reality, this truth, are those who don't actually have a relationship with the living God. They're not born again, nor do they have the Holy Spirit. They have a book, they have knowledge of this book. They have doctrines, philosophy. They form their opinions based on a book and spend a lot of time and energy, defending their opinions. They have God in a box, well defined and quantified. Everything labeled and categorized. This makes God safe and controllable. You can't come to terms with the mystery or the questions, reality presents you with. So you demand that everything be revealed and answered to you at once, in an "infallible book". Where does faith factor into this contrived, carnal arrangement?

        You have your emotional, imaginary, sack full of answers, rather than a scary sack full of questions. Unfortunately, this world will only hand you a sack full of questions (hence, the need for faith. That's the way God designed this world. You need faith, not absolute certainty). There's no warm and fuzzy sack full of answers (There are no infallible books in this fallen, fallible world. Sorry my friend, but that warm and fuzzy teddy bear, with all of the answers, clearly defined and spelled out, doesn't exist. It's an idol, that you've created, to compensate for your lack of faith and a genuine relationship with God).

        So I have, as well as all born again children of God, a divine deposit of knowledge and wisdom. We have the holy spirit, the presence of God in our lives and His Christ. Those of us who are regenerated in Jesus, have an actual relationship with Jesus and the presence of God manifests and interacts, communes with us, personally and in our congregations. When we gather to praise and worship, to pray, to preach the gospel, we live what you read. What you read, in your book, we live. It's our experience. You either have it, or you don't.

        That's my answer to your question. And now I close with my own questions. On what grounds do you, impose, this collection of writings, upon the children of almighty God? Who gave you the authority, to demand or impose anything, upon anyone, in respect to Jesus and His gospel? On what grounds do you assert that this collection of writings, you call "the bible", is the infallible and inerrant word of almighty God? Let's examine the veracity of your claims.
        If your "relationship" with God and his son is not based on God's written logos then you are are simply guessing about whether you even have a relationship at all with them.

        Jesus Christ stated "it is written" because "it is written" .

        He asked "have you not read?" because they hadn't bothered to read.

        Sadly your mindset is the same as those he corrected.

        Have you not read that Jesus referred to what is written even to explain who he is and many other truths.

        Evidently you would rather rely on men's opinions and traditions rather than God's words.

        Read my opening post and learn.
        "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

        "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

        Pro scripture = Protestant

        Comment


        • #19
          We have a genuine relationship, interaction, communion, with Jesus and His heavenly Father. When a Satanist, has a relationship with satan and his demons, he knows it. He doesn't need a book to know that he's in communion with satan and his demons. Likewise, when a person is in spiritual communion with almighty God and His angels, he or she knows it. Book or no book.

          The reason you are so adamant about the bible being required to commune with God, is because you haven't communed with God, nor do you have the experience of His presence in your life.

          The fact that Jesus cited the Hebrew bible when preaching the gospel to the Jews, doesn't imply that every verse and word in the collection of writings the Jews and Christians consider the infallible word of God, is actually the word of God or infallible.

          The only written text that was ever considered infallible by the Jews was the five books of Moses. That's why the Jews organize their scripture into several categories and degrees of inspiration. In the 1st century, it was the law, prophets and psalms. The law or Pentateuch/five books of Moses, is the foundation, taking precedence over the prophets and psalms. The Torah/Law of Moses is the rule or measure, by which all other scriptures are weighed and tested for their authenticity and compliance. The only set of writings that a Jew is required to possess in his home is the Pentateuch. Every family, according to the law of Moses, has to write its own scroll of the law. The kings of Israel, also had to have their own scroll of Torah.

          It wasn't until the 19th century, that we have Jews publishing bibles with the five books of Moses and the prophets and Psalms/writings. The "TeNaK"/Torah-Nevem-Kethuvem, was never published in one book, until Judaism became more liberal in its opinion of Torah and its devotion to God. Every synagogue on earth, has to have a Torah scroll. Jews are not obligated to have a scroll of the book of Isaiah or Jeremiah. A scroll of the Psalms of David. That's a Christian misconception. Equating the prophets and writings/Psalms, to the five books of Moses.

          The Jews in the first century, when Jesus was physically here on earth, didn't have a set canon of scripture, as they and the Christians have today. The scriptures have their value and are profitable for instruction in righteousness. They contain eternal, divine truth. That doesn't imply, that every verse and word in the collection of writings you identify as the bible, is the word of God or infallible. More, you and no one, but God himself, has the authority, to determine what is and isn't His divine written instructions, applicable to us today.

          Our relationship with God, is based on God, who established that relationship. You obviously don't have a relationship with the living God, nor are you baptized in His Holy Spirit and Presence. That's why you discount the possibility of maintaining a relationship with Jesus, without recognizing your arbitrary demands in respect to books, written works, that you claim are God's inerrant word. The only true Word is Jesus, a divine person, not a book. The fact you don't recognize that, demonstrates you are probably, unregenerate and not born again in Christ.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by RealityJerk View Post
            We have a genuine relationship, interaction, communion, with Jesus and His heavenly Father. When a Satanist, has a relationship with satan and his demons, he knows it. He doesn't need a book to know that he's in communion with satan and his demons. Likewise, when a person is in spiritual communion with almighty God and His angels, he or she knows it. Book or no book.

            The reason you are so adamant about the bible being required to commune with God, is because you haven't communed with God, nor do you have the experience of His presence in your life.

            The fact that Jesus cited the Hebrew bible when preaching the gospel to the Jews, doesn't imply that every verse and word in the collection of writings the Jews and Christians consider the infallible word of God, is actually the word of God or infallible.

            The only written text that was ever considered infallible by the Jews was the five books of Moses. That's why the Jews organize their scripture into several categories and degrees of inspiration. In the 1st century, it was the law, prophets and psalms. The law or Pentateuch/five books of Moses, is the foundation, taking precedence over the prophets and psalms. The Torah/Law of Moses is the rule or measure, by which all other scriptures are weighed and tested for their authenticity and compliance. The only set of writings that a Jew is required to possess in his home is the Pentateuch. Every family, according to the law of Moses, has to write its own scroll of the law. The kings of Israel, also had to have their own scroll of Torah.

            It wasn't until the 19th century, that we have Jews publishing bibles with the five books of Moses and the prophets and Psalms/writings. The "TeNaK"/Torah-Nevem-Kethuvem, was never published in one book, until Judaism became more liberal in its opinion of Torah and its devotion to God. Every synagogue on earth, has to have a Torah scroll. Jews are not obligated to have a scroll of the book of Isaiah or Jeremiah. A scroll of the Psalms of David. That's a Christian misconception. Equating the prophets and writings/Psalms, to the five books of Moses.

            The Jews in the first century, when Jesus was physically here on earth, didn't have a set canon of scripture, as they and the Christians have today. The scriptures have their value and are profitable for instruction in righteousness. They contain eternal, divine truth. That doesn't imply, that every verse and word in the collection of writings you identify as the bible, is the word of God or infallible. More, you and no one, but God himself, has the authority, to determine what is and isn't His divine written instructions, applicable to us today.

            Our relationship with God, is based on God, who established that relationship. You obviously don't have a relationship with the living God, nor are you baptized in His Holy Spirit and Presence. That's why you discount the possibility of maintaining a relationship with Jesus, without recognizing your arbitrary demands in respect to books, written works, that you claim are God's inerrant word. The only true Word is Jesus, a divine person, not a book. The fact you don't recognize that, demonstrates you are probably, unregenerate and not born again in Christ.
            Reread my post. Jesus Christ quoted scripture.
            "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

            "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

            Pro scripture = Protestant

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by oatmeal View Post
              Reread my post. Jesus Christ quoted scripture.
              You're ignoring what I'm saying. The fact Jesus quoted scripture, doesn't imply that all scripture holds equal authority or is infallible. Christ knows what is true and what isn't. He highlights that which is righteous and good and that which isn't, for His children. The Garden Of Eden, contained both good and bad fruit. Fruit to life, and fruit to death. A tree of life and a tree that leads to eternal death. So, if you don't have the spirit of God in you, if you're not born again in Jesus Christ, the bible will kill you.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by RealityJerk View Post
                You're ignoring what I'm saying. The fact Jesus quoted scripture, doesn't imply that all scripture holds equal authority or is infallible. Christ knows what is true and what isn't. He highlights that which is righteous and good and that which isn't, for His children. The Garden Of Eden, contained both good and bad fruit. Fruit to life, and fruit to death. A tree of life and a tree that leads to eternal death. So, if you don't have the spirit of God in you, if you're not born again in Jesus Christ, the bible will kill you.
                It is written

                Deuteronomy 32:4 "He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."

                Psalm 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

                II Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

                Psalm 119:138 Thy testimonies that thou hast commanded are righteous and very faithful.

                Psalm 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

                Psalm 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

                John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

                Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

                Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
                Last edited by oatmeal; November 23, 2017, 05:43 AM.
                "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

                "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

                Pro scripture = Protestant

                Comment

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