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  • ECT: Two Gatherings?

    This post is primarily directed at those who believe in a pre-trib (secret) rapture - but anyone who wants to explain what they see here is welcome to respond. It's quite likely that this is a popular bone of contention, but I haven't run into it myself. I've never spent much time debating end times views.

    There are two passages concerning eschatological events that are very similar but have one striking difference. It is this difference (primarily) that drives my question.

    First, from Matthew 24, we have Jesus saying this :

    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Matthew 24:29-31

    And...by comparison :

    As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    Matthew 13:40-43

    The first thing I note is that the Matthew 24 gathering is immediately AFTER the Tribulation. So if this is the rapture, it appears that Jesus Himself plainly says the rapture is post-trib.

    The second thing I note is that the two passages differ primarily in one respect - Matthew 13 has the gathering of the wicked in view and Matthew 24 has the gathering of the elect in view. Both are done by Jesus' angels. So if Matthew 24 is really talking about the rapture (because the elect are taken) while Matthew 13 is the end of the world (as it is translated), then that again reinforces the post-trib proposition AND seems to cast doubt on the pre-trib assertion that Jesus doesn't really come to earth at the rapture but He DOES at the end of all things. In both passages above, Jesus is removed to some degree from what is happening. If He is, as the pre-trib position asserts (I believe), here in Matthew 13 but not in Matthew 24, then the way Jesus tells it, there is no difference in His locality between the two.

    How do you handle both passages and the specific points I have brought up?
    If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Jeremiah 17:9

    Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
    Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

    Isaiah 50:10-11

  • #2
    Originally posted by nikolai_42 View Post
    This post is primarily directed at those who believe in a pre-trib (secret) rapture - but anyone who wants to explain what they see here is welcome to respond. It's quite likely that this is a popular bone of contention, but I haven't run into it myself. I've never spent much time debating end times views.

    There are two passages concerning eschatological events that are very similar but have one striking difference. It is this difference (primarily) that drives my question.

    First, from Matthew 24, we have Jesus saying this :

    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Matthew 24:29-31

    And...by comparison :

    As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    Matthew 13:40-43

    The first thing I note is that the Matthew 24 gathering is immediately AFTER the Tribulation. So if this is the rapture, it appears that Jesus Himself plainly says the rapture is post-trib.

    The second thing I note is that the two passages differ primarily in one respect - Matthew 13 has the gathering of the wicked in view and Matthew 24 has the gathering of the elect in view. Both are done by Jesus' angels. So if Matthew 24 is really talking about the rapture (because the elect are taken) while Matthew 13 is the end of the world (as it is translated), then that again reinforces the post-trib proposition AND seems to cast doubt on the pre-trib assertion that Jesus doesn't really come to earth at the rapture but He DOES at the end of all things. In both passages above, Jesus is removed to some degree from what is happening. If He is, as the pre-trib position asserts (I believe), here in Matthew 13 but not in Matthew 24, then the way Jesus tells it, there is no difference in His locality between the two.

    How do you handle both passages and the specific points I have brought up?

    Hi and you are not using a Pre-trib DEPARTURE / RAPTURE passages at all as they are for Israel !!

    Pre-trib passages are many , like 1 Cor 15:51-58 and 1 Thess 4:13-18 or 2 Thess 2:1-3 and for those who will check the Greek text , there is one in Gal 1:4 with the Greek word RESCUE !!

    dan p

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by DAN P View Post
      Hi and you are not using a Pre-trib DEPARTURE / RAPTURE passages at all as they are for Israel !!

      Pre-trib passages are many , like 1 Cor 15:51-58 and 1 Thess 4:13-18 or 2 Thess 2:1-3 and for those who will check the Greek text , there is one in Gal 1:4 with the Greek word RESCUE !!

      dan p
      Yep... two completely different things.

      Also, the catching away is NOT a secret. It was revealed to Paul and documented in SCRIPTURE.
      All of my ancestors are human.
      Originally posted by Squeaky
      That explains why your an idiot.
      Originally posted by God's Truth
      Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
      Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
      (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

      1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
      (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

      Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
        Yep... two completely different things.

        Also, the catching away is NOT a secret. It was revealed to Paul and documented in SCRIPTURE.

        Hi and it is a secret only to those who are ignorant and to those who are anti - Pauline !!

        Maybe he believes in 2 Gospels also ?

        But there are 5 Gospels !!

        dan p

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by nikolai_42 View Post
          This post is primarily directed at those who believe in a pre-trib (secret) rapture - but anyone who wants to explain what they see here is welcome to respond. It's quite likely that this is a popular bone of contention, but I haven't run into it myself. I've never spent much time debating end times views.

          There are two passages concerning eschatological events that are very similar but have one striking difference. It is this difference (primarily) that drives my question.

          First, from Matthew 24, we have Jesus saying this :

          Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
          And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
          And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

          Matthew 24:29-31

          And...by comparison :

          As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
          The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
          And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
          Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

          Matthew 13:40-43

          The first thing I note is that the Matthew 24 gathering is immediately AFTER the Tribulation. So if this is the rapture, it appears that Jesus Himself plainly says the rapture is post-trib.

          The second thing I note is that the two passages differ primarily in one respect - Matthew 13 has the gathering of the wicked in view and Matthew 24 has the gathering of the elect in view. Both are done by Jesus' angels. So if Matthew 24 is really talking about the rapture (because the elect are taken) while Matthew 13 is the end of the world (as it is translated), then that again reinforces the post-trib proposition AND seems to cast doubt on the pre-trib assertion that Jesus doesn't really come to earth at the rapture but He DOES at the end of all things. In both passages above, Jesus is removed to some degree from what is happening. If He is, as the pre-trib position asserts (I believe), here in Matthew 13 but not in Matthew 24, then the way Jesus tells it, there is no difference in His locality between the two.

          How do you handle both passages and the specific points I have brought up?
          Where does scripture use the word rapture?

          As you point out there are two gatherings referred to regarding the end times. One for the just and one for the unjust.

          However there is a gathering together referred to in the epistles, ie 1 These 4:13-17 and other places that is for those who were/are saved according to Romans 10:9. To whom Romans 5:9 and 1 These 1:10 apply. This one is different than the two in the gospels
          "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

          "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

          Pro scripture = Protestant

          Comment

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