ECT Mt 25's coming and the situation of Hebrews

Interplanner

Well-known member
Other than the 4 options for the return of Christ in Mk 13's parable of the servants, most of the NT sees the return right after the destruction of Israel in that generation.

The resurrection was the enthronement of Christ: God made him Lord and Christ; David foresaw the resurrection as the enthronement, Acts 2:30-31; Lk 24 reminded the disciples that Christ was to suffer and enter his glory; Eph 1 says he was enthroned and given a title above any name in this age and the next.

Mt25's 'sheep and goats' imagery starts with that enthronement, but that is not the purpose or attention. The attention is on what believers should be like. With two things going on at the same time, we can see why this was a vital piece: Christ was enthroned, but everything in Israel was going to pieces: revolutions, unthinkable Roman admins, famine, invasion and siege of the city, a police state by the rebels in areas they held, burnings of villages either by the revolt or by Romans in pursuit. The rich classes of Jerusalem didn't want to revolt, but also did not help those who were suffering.

All of which created the misery described in the needs that needed to be met: imprisonment, hunger, destitution.

Hebrews was familiar with all of this. The land was going to be burned, 6:8. The letter implores the believers to remember that the old covenant is over with, certainly not to be fought for, and to expect the suffering of the early days of the church (10:32). The loss of property was to be accepted because they would gain the NHNE. "Don't shrink back and be destroyed" ends ch 10. They may need to shed blood in resisting the evil of the times (12:4). They need to look out for those who were 'strangers' and those in prison (13:1-3). They would suffer like Christ did (12:2) outside the city, because that city (Jerusalem) was doomed and would not endure; they were part of a city that endures. That Jerusalem would not accept that Christ was king and would be overrun by rebels hopelessly trying to fight their way to freedom from Rome. They needed to practice the sacrifice of sharing 13:16.

Most moving of all is 11:33+ because believers at that time in Israel would experience most of that hardship, and 'none of the (previous believers) received what had been promised' v39, but those past and those current ones are now blessed in Christ. Blessed but suffering.

Both passages are written with the expectation that right after this horrible period they were in, they would be with Christ in the NHNE. 12:22. You have come to this new city, you are nearly there...
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
In Matthew 25, people are granted entrance into the kingdom, and they had NO IDEA what they had done
to deserve it. They had helped Israel in their time of trouble, and were BLESSED (Gen 12).
 

Danoh

New member
In Matthew 25, people are granted entrance into the kingdom, and they had NO IDEA what they had done
to deserve it. They had helped Israel in their time of trouble, and were BLESSED (Gen 12).

You have just now contradicted your erroneous position on who the Gentiles of Eph. 2 are, once more :chuckle:

Doesn't look like Gentiles even had to know they had to bless Israel :chuckle:

Just as obvious, per Israel's yet future Earthly Priesthood, Gentiles do not have to know whether or not they have to bless Israel, or any other such thing.

For when that rain comes, a great rain it will pour on this Earth and by that alone, make itself known, whether or not one knew in advance to "bring an umbrella - a thunderstorm is expected today..."

Isaiah 61:11 For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

Do yourself a favor, and download and read through those extensive studies on Romans and Ephesians I mentioned to you elsewhere, on TOL..

Reading through them, I found them more than very sound.

Romans 5:8.
 

Danoh

New member
No I didn't.

I'm sure you believe yourself there :chuckle:

And again, you ignore any mention of those two studies.

And yet you constantly remind IP, of what you point him to that he ignores addressing.

Yeah, you're humble; alright - more like an obviously quiet pride :chuckle:

Your seeming humbleness is a quiet pride in some, often mistaken by others as humility.

If anything, you are as stubborn in your adherence to not examining your possible errors, as IP is in his.

Rom. 5:8.
 

Danoh

New member
Explain the contradiction.

That you can't even see it, speaks by itself.

Tell you what - you explain the contradiction I am talking about.

For whether or not you agree with it, if you nevertheless at least see the contradiction I am talking about; you stand that much better of a chance of presenting a case against it.

But you can't even see it; can you?

All you have to do is lay out your view of Eph. 2 to yourself, and then look at it from what I posted.

This is literraly that simple to figure out.

Or to skirt, after a back and forth or two; as you often do :chuckle:

Nevertheless, Rom. 5:8 :)
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
The closeness of the other world (Heb 2:5), the new Jerusalem (chs 12, 13), the "Jerusalem that is above" of Gal 4, all show that NT thinking was that the end of the world was right soon. I don't know anywhere in the NT where they thought there would be time on this earth after the destruction of Israel. Rev 1 is emphatic that what it writes about is at hand, immediate, quickly to take place. Paul told people thinking of marriage, not to bother because the end was so close.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
The closeness of the other world (Heb 2:5), the new Jerusalem (chs 12, 13), the "Jerusalem that is above" of Gal 4, all show that NT thinking was that the end of the world was right soon. I don't know anywhere in the NT where they thought there would be time on this earth after the destruction of Israel. Rev 1 is emphatic that what it writes about is at hand, immediate, quickly to take place. Paul told people thinking of marriage, not to bother because the end was so close.

Humanism.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
That you can't even see it, speaks by itself.

Tell you what - you explain the contradiction I am talking about.

For whether or not you agree with it, if you nevertheless at least see the contradiction I am talking about; you stand that much better of a chance of presenting a case against it.

But you can't even see it; can you?

All you have to do is lay out your view of Eph. 2 to yourself, and then look at it from what I posted.

This is literraly that simple to figure out.

Or to skirt, after a back and forth or two; as you often do :chuckle:

Nevertheless, Rom. 5:8 :)

I can't see it. Break it down for us, as succinctly as possible.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
RD may be interested (maybe not) to check this out:

1, Christ is seated now, but that's until his return to vanquish final enemies.
2, This teaching ("I was thirsty...") is people right then in the crumbling, miserable situation of Israel in that generation.
3, He was expected to return right after the destruction of the city. So he would "get up" from his throne to do so.
4, He would sit again after the vanquishing of enemies, judging between those in Israel who helped the needy in the generation just mentioned. Along with many other judgements to be made before the NHNE are created.
5, then, since the return was delayed from the original plan, this all needs to be shuffled again.
 
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