Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Covetousness

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • ECT: Covetousness

    The sin of covetousness is what seems to me to be the "sticky wicket" of God's requirements for holiness. In the OT, the commandments instructed that covetousness was forbidden. This is the same Law that is often thought to be devoted to externals. And it seems to me that Jesus used it to bring men to the point of realizing that they had no hope in themselves. "Stop coveting" is a command none can instantly conform to on their own. It springs from the heart (Mark 7:22) and caught the rich young ruler by surprise (it seems) when he couldn't bring himself to part with those possessions - the abundance of which were fundamental to his existence (Matthew 19:22). Jesus warned strictly against being possessed by one's possessions (Luke 12:15).

    So when Jesus says that guilt of murder and adultery need not be accompanied by an obvious physical act (Matthew 5:22,28), it should be understood that this catches everyone. Covetousness is idolatry (Eph 5:5), so it should also be no surprise that those who are dead in trespasses and sin bear the mark of this (I Cor 5:10 and Col 3:5). But in examining the things which the believer should be on the look out for, he says this :

    But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
    I Cor 5:11

    Of the 6 traits Paul warns against the church tolerating in the body of believers, only 1 is potentially covert - covetousness. A heart that desires what is not its own is guilty of covetousness if we are to believe Christ's words. But who can tell if that heart is truly covetous or not? Peter warns against those who are essentially devoid of any truth - those who may have followed the truth at one point but have departed from it (2 Peter 2:15). The same chapter mentions covetousness twice as central to this sort of false prophet (2 Peter 2:3,14).

    So how is the church to discern this covetousness that is strictly warned against in I Cor 5? Can it be inferred that this is a sin which indicates someone is not regenerate if such a warning is given? Or is it simply because of the cancerous nature of this particular sinful position that requires isolation from others to deal with it?

    But even more pressing, in some ways, is if there is some sort of spectrum here. What do I mean? Looking at this well known verse, one could easily read it as indicating an ideal rather than something that should be a universal reality in the church :

    But godliness with contentment is great gain
    I Timothy 6:6

    That is, can one be Godly without necessarily being content? If so, isn't that the picture of covetousness in which we find all manner of evil? Aren't we, then, left with a scenario in which one could be (in some degree) covetous without being guilty of the sin of covetousness (!)? At least as guilty in such a way that one would be considered worthy of being pushed out of the assembly....

    What is meant - in these several instances - by covetousness?
    If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Jeremiah 17:9

    Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
    Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

    Isaiah 50:10-11

  • #2
    I was musing on this very thing yesterday.

    Coveting as well as godliness are personal things.

    One cannot share another's contentment.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by 1Mind1Spirit View Post
      I was musing on this very thing yesterday.

      Coveting as well as godliness are personal things.

      One cannot share another's contentment.
      Just happened to check right after you posted...

      So when Paul tells the Corinthians that we aren't supposed to fellowship with those that are covetous...that it is equated with idolatry - and yet implies to Timothy that one can be godly but not content - how do we bridge that (apparent) gap?
      If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

      The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
      Jeremiah 17:9

      Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
      Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

      Isaiah 50:10-11

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by nikolai_42 View Post
        Just happened to check right after you posted...

        So when Paul tells the Corinthians that we aren't supposed to fellowship with those that are covetous...that it is equated with idolatry - and yet implies to Timothy that one can be godly but not content - how do we bridge that (apparent) gap?
        I reckon to be content with godliness one must acknowledge the power thereof.

        Comment


        • #5
          It would help if you understood that "godliness" is a mistranslation. It should be reverence and is directed at all that is Holy.
          I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

          "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

          I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
          A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
          If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

          Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

          I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Truster View Post
            It would help if you understood that "godliness" is a mistranslation. It should be reverence and is directed at all that is Holy.
            Daily bread.

            Comment


            • #7
              6The punishment imposed on him by the majority is sufficient for him. 7So instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love for him.…

              Galatians 6:1
              Brothers, if someone is caught in a trespass, you who are spiritual should restore him with a spirit of gentleness. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.

              Ephesians 4:32
              Be kind and tender-hearted to one another, forgiving each other just as in Christ God forgave you.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 1Mind1Spirit View Post
                6The punishment imposed on him by the majority is sufficient for him. 7So instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love for him.…

                Galatians 6:1
                Brothers, if someone is caught in a trespass, you who are spiritual should restore him with a spirit of gentleness. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.

                Ephesians 4:32
                Be kind and tender-hearted to one another, forgiving each other just as in Christ God forgave you.
                I'm not suggesting the sin is some unforgivable sin or puts a man outside of Christ - or even that such a person should be totally isolated. That can't be because they need to be brought to repentance (as the passages you quote suggest). But there is a certain approach to covetousness in Paul's first letter to the Corinthians - one of no tolerance (in a certain sense, at least...) - that seems a little different than his approach to contentment (the statement of the absence of covetousness) in his first letter to Timothy. He essentially seems to tolerate some form or degree of covetousness to Timothy where he sets it apart with other sins as requiring some form of separation.

                I'm not charging Paul with inconsistency, but I'm trying to understand what is understood in the context of the Corinthian letter and what is understood in the context of the letter to Timothy. A blanket understanding of covetousness as generalized desiring what someone else wants doesn't fill in the gaps. In my mind, at least...

                When the scriptures mention sin, I take it that we should understand them to be exceedingly sinful - not just graded on a scale. Certainly some sins have different effect - which could be why Paul isolates these 6 sins for the Corinthians - but how can it be that being discontent is not equivalent with covetousness (again, in I Timothy 6)? Should we think there are some sins - or degree of sins - that are not as sinful as others?
                If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

                The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
                Jeremiah 17:9

                Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
                Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

                Isaiah 50:10-11

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by nikolai_42 View Post
                  A blanket understanding of covetousness as generalized desiring what someone else wants doesn't fill in the gaps. In my mind, at least...
                  I believe the Law says thou shall not covet what your neighbor already has.

                  Not sure why you would say what he wants.

                  If I have my own, would I be content if I wanted his too?

                  Wouldn't that constitute lust?

                  I would say that those who think gain is godliness have a lot more problems than just coveting.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by nikolai_42 View Post
                    What is meant - in these several instances - by covetousness?
                    Covetousness is putting something ahead of God.

                    Some people covet money, some covet power.

                    Different people covet different things.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 1Mind1Spirit View Post
                      I believe the Law says thou shall not covet what your neighbor already has.

                      Not sure why you would say what he wants.

                      If I have my own, would I be content if I wanted his too?

                      Wouldn't that constitute lust?

                      I would say that those who think gain is godliness have a lot more problems than just coveting.
                      I think coveting falls under the realm of selfishness. There are so many forms of selfishness

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by patrick jane View Post
                        I think coveting falls under the realm of selfishness. There are so many forms of selfishness
                        Ahhh yes, the natural estate of the affairs of man.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 1Mind1Spirit View Post
                          Daily bread.
                          We* have secret manna.

                          We* the redeemed, regenerate and repentant sinners.
                          I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

                          "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

                          I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
                          A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
                          If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

                          Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

                          I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by patrick jane View Post
                            I think coveting falls under the realm of selfishness. There are so many forms of selfishness
                            What you think is irrelevant. Words have meaning and using words without understanding the meaning just shows how truly ignorant you are.
                            I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

                            "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

                            I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
                            A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
                            If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

                            Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

                            I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Truster View Post
                              We* have secret manna.

                              We* the redeemed, regenerate and repentant sinners.
                              Archive this post and file it under "The textbook words of a Child of Pride"... "Douche Bag" works too!

                              # Wicked Tongue

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X