ECT Does Romans 9 support Individual Election?

D

DAN P

Well-known member
Potter's Clay said:
I'm assuming that you believe that Romans 9 endorses the concept of individual election, which I agree with. There are some who believe that there is only a corporate election.


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Hi and I am not a CLAVINIST and we that in Rom 11:5 there is election and also for Gentiles !!

dan p
 
D

DAN P

Well-known member
Potter's Clay said:
Can you describe the purpose of election from your interpretation?


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Hi and the B O C was called , CHOSEN , or ELECTED before TIME began in 2 Tim 1:9 and in Eph 1:4 He CHOSE us for Himself before the OVER THROW OF THE WORLD !!

I have to leave and am on short numbers !!

dan p
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Tambora said:
There is corporate election for the nation of Israel.
The BOC is individual election.
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This is another arbitrary nonsense of D'ism. The fact is that rom 9-11 has many demonstrations that the whole group never was worth boasting about, and only the remnant counted. The NT sustains continuous pressure against the race as such, from Jn 1 (not born of blood) to 50 times in Paul. And it projects it back on to the OT in passages like Rom 9-11 and Heb 11.
 
Tambora

Tambora

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Interplanner said:
Tambora said:
There is corporate election for the nation of Israel.
The BOC is individual election.
Click to expand...

This is another arbitrary nonsense of D'ism.
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Nope.
It's straight out of scripture.
The nation of Israel, elect and chosen.



The fact is that rom 9-11 has many demonstrations that the whole group never was worth boasting about,
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Neither is the BOC worth boasting about, as they all have fallen short.
If one cannot trust the promise of Israel being chosen and elect, then one has no foundation to trust any promise to the BOC.

and only the remnant counted.
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Remnant of who?
Israel.
There is no 'remnant' of the BOC.


The NT sustains continuous pressure against the race
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If by 'race' you are referring to Israel, then you should know, per scripture, that no matter how many times GOD was disappointed with the nation of Israel, they were always reminded of GOD's promises to them.
And that even though they would blaspheme His name and backslide, He would keep His oath to them.
Not because of their goodness, but because GOD keeps His word.
Not for their sake, but for His own holy name's sake.

Ez. 36:21-34 KJV

But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.​

I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel. Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded. And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.​



Ez. 39:25-29 KJV

Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid. When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.​



GOD does not do this for the sake of any inherent goodness or worth of Israel.
GOD does this because GOD KEEPS HIS WORD.
For HIS own name sake, not for theirs.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
tam wrote:
Neither is the BOC worth boasting about, as they all have fallen short.
If one cannot trust the promise of Israel being chosen and elect, then one has no foundation to trust any promise to the BOC.


Yes they do: the promise was to Christ the Seed, Gal 3:16. this is precisely where D'ism does not submit to the NT. The NT is validated on these things because Christ was the party with whom the covenant was made, those who are in Christ share as co-inheritors. Otherwise there would be no concept in the NT of co-sharing or inheriting. Those in the OT who truly believed where the remnant. And in heb 11, they sound like they acted very much like people in the NT, don't they?

The truth of the Bible does not stand or fall on 'promises to Israel'. There is no NT passage that says so. The remnant, yes.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
There is no remnant of any race or other group. It is those who believe.

You have so many fundamental concepts that are mistakes. The whole idea of a remnant is not a sub-group of any other but those who have faith, no matter what distinction. The NT expression of that was not new; it is in the OT if you know what to look for.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Tambora said:
Nope.
It's straight out of scripture.
The nation of Israel, elect and chosen.



Neither is the BOC worth boasting about, as they all have fallen short.
If one cannot trust the promise of Israel being chosen and elect, then one has no foundation to trust any promise to the BOC.

Remnant of who?
Israel.
There is no 'remnant' of the BOC.


If by 'race' you are referring to Israel, then you should know, per scripture, that no matter how many times GOD was disappointed with the nation of Israel, they were always reminded of GOD's promises to them.
And that even though they would blaspheme His name and backslide, He would keep His oath to them.
Not because of their goodness, but because GOD keeps His word.
Not for their sake, but for His own holy name's sake.

Ez. 36:21-34 KJV

But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.​

I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel. Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded. And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.​



Ez. 39:25-29 KJV

Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid. When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.​



GOD does not do this for the sake of any inherent goodness or worth of Israel.
GOD does this because GOD KEEPS HIS WORD.
For HIS own name sake, not for theirs.
Click to expand...




It's not even that, Tam. He does these things because of Christ. It is through Christ that the mission takes off. You are snagged by what seems to be Israel again, and the veil needs to come off, so that Christ is all and in all.
 
Tambora

Tambora

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Interplanner said:
It's not even that, Tam.
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Yes it is that.
Per scripture.


He does these things because of Christ.
Click to expand...
Scripture says GOD does this for HIS own name sake.
GOD will not defile HIS own name by not keeping HIS promises to them.



Neither Israel or the BOC were 'worthy' of GOD's grace.
It behooves me how some can speak of election and grace, and then turn right around and claim that Israel has to earn it, but the BOC does not.
Neither had to earn it.
It happens because of GOD's good character, not because of their good character.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Tambora said:
Yes it is that.
Per scripture.


Scripture says GOD does this for HIS own name sake.
GOD will not defile HIS own name by not keeping HIS promises to them.



Neither Israel or the BOC were 'worthy' of GOD's grace.
It behooves me how some can speak of election and grace, and then turn right around and claim that Israel has to earn it, but the BOC does not.
Neither had to earn it.
It happens because of GOD's good character, not because of their good character.
Click to expand...





He says that in the OT where things are not as clarified as they are in Christ. Are you not aware of even that change about the NT? Do you think that after the NT you go back to the OT and read it in the plain, non-Christian sense that it was when it arrived? In that case, then the non-Christian Jews of London of the 1800s who started thinking 'hey why not go down and live in Palestine where the sun shines' were right all along. Then Jews should go live in their ancestral land is as "Christian" as justification by faith.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
You don't sound like Acts 13 or 26 and you can't. You think the validity of God is in Israel's land. There is nothing like that in the NT and you can't get the NT into your thinking.
 
Tambora

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
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Interplanner said:
He says that in the OT where things are not as clarified as they are in Christ. Are you not aware of even that change about the NT? Do you think that after the NT you go back to the OT and read it in the plain, non-Christian sense that it was when it arrived? In that case, then the non-Christian Jews of London of the 1800s who started thinking 'hey why not go down and live in Palestine where the sun shines' were right all along. Then Jews should go live in their ancestral land is as "Christian" as justification by faith.
Click to expand...
That's not how scripture says it will take place, IP.
 
Tambora

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Interplanner said:
You don't sound like Acts 13 or 26 and you can't. You think the validity of God is in Israel's land. There is nothing like that in the NT and you can't get the NT into your thinking.
Click to expand...
The NT does not and cannot nullify GOD's promises.
And the backsliding of Israel cannot nullify GOD's promises either.
GOD restores Israel because of HIS holy name sake, HIS righteousness, HIS oath.
Not theirs.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Tambora said:
The NT does not and cannot nullify GOD's promises.
And the backsliding of Israel cannot nullify GOD's promises either.
GOD restores Israel because of HIS holy name sake, HIS righteousness, HIS oath.
Not theirs.
Click to expand...





Christ is given as the solution to Israel's sins. That's what Dan 9's prayer is about. he wants to fix the problem. The problem is fixed in Messiah while Israel is destroyed. That is the shape of history from that point on to 72 AD. There is nothing else going to be about Israel after that. Believers, yes. But not events in Israel. Because that vision has that kind of finality, and is validated by Christ and by hebrews as the 'end of the ages' (times).
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Tam,
If you can realize that we use two divergent sources, you'll see what I'm saying. And you won't be expecting me to agree. One is pre-Christian, or a-Christian, perfectly comfortable in the apparent meaning as found in OT texts. The other is used by Christ and the apostles, or is 'in Christ' in the sense of 2 Cor 3-5 and many places in the NT. The veil is removed. The Seed was Christ, Gal 3:16.

You have to decide for yourself which one is to be used by Christian believers, and which by those in Judaism (where the word 'in' is the same kind of usage as in 'in Christ'), and which of those two you are.
 
Tambora

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
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Hall of Fame
Interplanner said:
Christ is given as the solution to Israel's sins.
Click to expand...
Christ is the solution to sin, period.


That's what Dan 9's prayer is about. he wants to fix the problem. The problem is fixed in Messiah while Israel is destroyed.
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The problem is fixed by them being restored AS PROMISED.



That is the shape of history from that point on to 72 AD. There is nothing else going to be about Israel after that. Believers, yes. But not events in Israel. Because that vision has that kind of finality, and is validated by Christ and by hebrews as the 'end of the ages' (times).
Click to expand...
The promises to Israel are not ended, nor can they be.
Because GOD is true to HIS word no matter what man does.
 
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