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The content of faith, required to be believed, in Mt.-John, prior to the dbr

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  • #46
    Originally posted by turbosixx View Post
    I see where I steered this slightly off track, my apologies. When I said “they” were looking forward to Jesus’s DBR I meant to say Jesus was looking forward to it. Jesus told them about it but they didn’t fully understand. Matt. 16:21
    Luke explicitly states the meaning was kept from them. So, we can 100% verify they did not preach he would die for their sins. That was first revealed to Paul. So what did they preach?
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Titus 1

    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by turbosixx View Post
      I see where I steered this slightly off track, my apologies. When I said “they” were looking forward to Jesus’s DBR I meant to say Jesus was looking forward to it. Jesus told them about it but they didn’t fully understand. Matt. 16:21
      You made up this "didn’t fully understand"-they were clueless-it was hid from them.


      1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV "gospel"

      Death
      Burial
      Resurrection

      Survey the book...

      1.The 12 did not know of the impending dbr-it was hid from them, until later in the Lord's ministry-and yet, prior to them knowing, they were preaching "the gospel of the kingdom:"


      "For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day. But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him." Mark 9:31-32 KJV

      "Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken." Luke 18:31-34 KJV

      "For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead." John 20:9 KJV


      2. Peter tried to prevent the Lord Jesus Christ's death, and His death was a key component of 1 Cor. 15:1-4, by which we are reconciled:

      "From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee" Mt. 16:21-22 KJV

      "And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him." Mark 8:31-32 KJV

      Peter’s response was to rebuke the Lord Jesus Christ. Today, in this dispensation, when someone rebukes the gospel of Christ, what do we call that someone? Lost.Peter certainly wasn’t “looking forward" to the dbr.


      3. Even after the Lord's death, burial, and resurrection, the 12 initially did not believe it:

      "And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted." Mt. 28:17 KJV

      "And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not. After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them. Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen." Mark 16:11 KJV

      "And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not." Luke 24:9-11 KJV

      What do we call someone who “believes not” the resurrection? You got it-lost! If Peter and the 10 were “looking forward to" the dbr, they certainly would not have denied the resurrection after it happened.


      " And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?" Luke 24:41 KJV

      Therefore, they were not preaching the dbr, "the gospel" of 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV, as a basis of justification, at least prior to its occurrence, but they were preaching the gospel of the kingdom. They certainly were not "looking forward" to it, and this "didn't fully understand it" jazz is made up-they knew NADA about it, as it was hid from them. They initially denied the resurrection.
      Last edited by john w; March 19th, 2016, 01:19 PM.
      Saint John W

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by john w View Post
        Therefore, they were not preaching the dbr, "the gospel" of 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV, as a basis of justification, at least prior to its occurrence, but they were preaching the gospel of the kingdom. They certainly were not "looking forward" to it, and this "didn't fully understand it" jazz is made up-they knew NADA about it, as it was hid from them. They initially denied the resurrection.
        Excellent.
        Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

        Titus 1

        For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

        Ephesians 5

        11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Nick M View Post
          Excellent.
          Ditto.

          We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
          They already know monsters exist.
          We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Nick M View Post
            Excellent.
            I thank God the Father, through the Lord Jesus Christ, for Nick the Great's accurate, brilliant assessment, of my brilliant post, and my ever increasing extreme humility. And I ask "thank" the wolves/wolf-ette's, for making this necessary.
            Saint John W

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by john w View Post
              I thank God the Father, through the Lord Jesus Christ, for Nick the Great's accurate, brilliant assessment, of my brilliant post, and my ever increasing extreme humility. And I ask "thank" the wolves/wolf-ette's, for making this necessary.
              Click image for larger version

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              • #52
                Originally posted by patrick jane View Post
                [ATTACH=CONFIG]23740[/ATTACH]
                "it takes a wolf to catch a wolf"

                ?

                Hmmph.....
                Saint John W

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Nick M View Post
                  So what did they preach?

                  The kingdom. Who told them what to preach?
                  Wretched man that I am.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by john w View Post
                    You made up this "didn’t fully understand"-they were clueless-it was hid from them.


                    1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV "gospel"

                    Death
                    Burial
                    Resurrection

                    Survey the book...

                    1.The 12 did not know of the impending dbr-it was hid from them, until later in the Lord's ministry-and yet, prior to them knowing, they were preaching "the gospel of the kingdom:"


                    "For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day. But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him." Mark 9:31-32 KJV

                    "Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken." Luke 18:31-34 KJV

                    "For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead." John 20:9 KJV


                    2. Peter tried to prevent the Lord Jesus Christ's death, and His death was a key component of 1 Cor. 15:1-4, by which we are reconciled:

                    "From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee" Mt. 16:21-22 KJV

                    "And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him." Mark 8:31-32 KJV

                    Peter’s response was to rebuke the Lord Jesus Christ. Today, in this dispensation, when someone rebukes the gospel of Christ, what do we call that someone? Lost.Peter certainly wasn’t “looking forward" to the dbr.


                    3. Even after the Lord's death, burial, and resurrection, the 12 initially did not believe it:

                    "And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted." Mt. 28:17 KJV

                    "And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not. After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them. Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen." Mark 16:11 KJV

                    "And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not." Luke 24:9-11 KJV

                    What do we call someone who “believes not” the resurrection? You got it-lost! If Peter and the 10 were “looking forward to" the dbr, they certainly would not have denied the resurrection after it happened.


                    " And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?" Luke 24:41 KJV

                    Therefore, they were not preaching the dbr, "the gospel" of 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV, as a basis of justification, at least prior to its occurrence, but they were preaching the gospel of the kingdom. They certainly were not "looking forward" to it, and this "didn't fully understand it" jazz is made up-they knew NADA about it, as it was hid from them. They initially denied the resurrection.

                    Ok, I agree with your point, it was hid from them. I don’t see how that changes anything. Who told them what to preach?

                    After Peter’s confession, Jesus begins to show them his DBR.
                    Matt. 16:21 From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.


                    If Jesus was showing them his DBR and his DBR was to establish his church, where do we see Jesus preparing the people for its coming? From your viewpoint why does he continue to preach the kingdom? I believe he continues to preach the kingdom because the church and kingdom are the same.
                    Wretched man that I am.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by turbosixx View Post
                      Ok, I agree with your point, it was hid from them. I don’t see how that changes anything. Who told them what to preach?

                      After Peter’s confession, Jesus begins to show them his DBR.
                      Matt. 16:21 From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.


                      If Jesus was showing them his DBR and his DBR was to establish his church, where do we see Jesus preparing the people for its coming? From your viewpoint why does he continue to preach the kingdom? I believe he continues to preach the kingdom because the church and kingdom are the same.
                      You missed it. Don't confuse your lack of reading comprehension skills, and your missing the point of the thread, with any alleged failure on my part, to be nothing but brilliant, and humble, while exhibiting stunning brilliance.


                      Take your seat.
                      Saint John W

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by john w View Post
                        You missed it.
                        That's why I'm asking you. I'm trying to understand from your viewpoint. Yes it was hid from the 12 but not Jesus. Everything preached is from Jesus. Even after his DBR they were still preaching the kingdom.

                        Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike.

                        Why is God still preaching good news about the kingdom if it isn't to be established for thousands of years in the future?
                        Wretched man that I am.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by turbosixx View Post
                          The kingdom.
                          Well, you admitting there is more than one piece of good news is a good start.

                          Who told them what to preach?
                          The Lord Jesus Christ. See Matthew 10. The Kingdom (he rules from Jerusalem) is at hand. Stay away from the gentiles.
                          Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

                          Titus 1

                          For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

                          Ephesians 5

                          11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by turbosixx View Post
                            I see where I steered this slightly off track, my apologies. When I said “they” were looking forward to Jesus’s DBR I meant to say Jesus was looking forward to it. Jesus told them about it but they didn’t fully understand. Matt. 16:21

                            What I’m trying to understand from your viewpoint is if the kingdom and the church are not the same thing, why Jesus would tell them to preach the kingdom was at hand when he knew it wouldn’t be established for thousands of years.
                            In my own understanding - from running all the passages within their particular scope and context - anytime the Twelve would attempt their own reasoning as to what the Lord was talking about, His actually intended sense through His words, would end up "hidden from them."

                            They were too much about walking by sight together with thinking a thing out through their own reasoning.

                            Read all the chapters where this happens, not just the passages isolated from their overall narrative.

                            What you are doing, Turbosixx, is using the Twelve's same kind of reasoning where theirs was faulty in that same way.

                            For example, they board that fishing vessel without bread. He just so happens to go Kwai Chang Cain on them by spouting a thing in the way He often did - in parables. Here, about the need to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees.

                            Reasoning within themselves, they conclude He is talking about their having not brought bread for the journey or some such.

                            His actually intented sense "hidden from them" by their own hand; by their own reasoning about what the heck He was talking about now.

                            Lol, there must have been times when He must have just scratched His head at their ways.

                            Of coarse, that last comment is my speculation - but one I am well aware of.

                            Meaning, every so often question what you have come to hold to - every so often, revisit an issue, trying to reevaluate it with new eyes...through the Scripture, of coarse.

                            Nehemiah 8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

                            Nehemiah 8:12 And all the people went their way to eat, and to drink, and to send portions, and to make great mirth, because they had understood the words that were declared unto them.

                            Note the same principle, centuries later...

                            Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

                            They failed to believe His words - to simply take Him at His word, end of doubt.

                            Whenever they would do that, His intended sense would end up "hidden from them" by their own hand.

                            Read that passage again - notice...

                            Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

                            Luke 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

                            You see that? They SHOULD HAVE known, but had failed to believe Him when He told them.

                            Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" - case closed.

                            Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

                            So He does a Bible study with them that they might believe the written Word about the Living Word...

                            Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

                            See that - He points out the things in all the Scriptures concerning Himself.

                            Note the same result related centuries earlier in Nehemiah:

                            Luke 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

                            Another example...

                            Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

                            He opened up the Scriptures unto them simply by pointing to the pasages and saying "these are the words which I spake unto you...concerning me..."

                            Paul does the same thing...

                            Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

                            Its is the standard principle...

                            Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

                            It is the pattern..

                            2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

                            Do that, and you won't be wondering why Christ preached the kingdom this, if the Church that...

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              I think I understand what your trying to get across to me. What I see is Jesus speaking about spiritual things and they think physical things, like the bread.

                              Originally posted by Danoh View Post
                              Do that, and you won't be wondering why Christ preached the kingdom this, if the Church that...

                              That doesn’t help me see it from your viewpoint. The kingdom was preached before and after his DBR. Why if it wasn’t to be established and where was it offered to them for them to reject it?


                              Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike.
                              What was to good news of the kingdom if it hasn’t and wasn’t going to happen?
                              Wretched man that I am.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Their aspect of God's spiritual kingdom, or rule one day - is physical "IN Earth."

                                Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

                                The Body's aspect of God's spiritual Kingdom IN Heaven is literal in Heaven NOW...

                                Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

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