ECT This should start a decent discussion: Universal Atonement

TFTn5280

New member
what are we doing here
if
everyone is saved?
if not
then there must be a condition
and
we are just arguing about what that condition is
so
please don't talk about unconditional unless you are talking about a mother's love

A mother's love more gracious, more complete, far exceeding the love of God: spare me. Jesus warns of the unforgivable sin (singular), and John the sin that leads to death. Reject the Gospel call and you are the one who has placed conditions upon God's love.
 
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chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
A mother's love more gracious, more complete, far outreaching the love of God: spare me. Jesus warns of the unforgivable sin (singular), and John the sin that leads to death. Reject the call of Christ and you are the one who has placed conditions upon his love.

God's love alone will not save you
and
everyone would be saved
if
that were true
 

TFTn5280

New member
you need to explain what we are doing here
if
it is your claim
that
everyone is saved

We are discussing Universal Atonement (not universalism). You would have known that if you had watched the interview in my opening post. Why so lazy? In the two hours you have been arguing with me, you could have watched it four times.
 

Word based mystic

New member
Perhaps what you missed is the dialectic in Barth's theology, Torrance's too for that matter. Atonement is not just sufficient for all and efficacious for some (by faith); it is complete, effective, and universal in scope. Nothing can separate humanity ~ via our inclusive election in Christ ~ from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. This is the "objective" pole of salvation. The "subjective" pole is the active response of believers by way of faith participation in and through Jesus Christ.

The question of course regards those who hang in the balance, they being three groups: those who are incapable of "belief" ~ infants, etc; those who have not heard the true Gospel message, thus having had no opportunity to respond; and those who have heard, do understand, and still reject Jesus Christ. This latter group are likely destined to face the second death alone. The former group are raised from the dead safely in the arms of Jesus. The group in the middle are those with whom we seek to reach with the Good News of Jesus Christ. Because it is truly good news and the power of God into (eis) salvation, they are likely to believe and benefit immediately from the surety of Christ's Spirit in them, the sanctifying hope of glory.

The dialectic is the tension between the two poles. Where do we concentrate our preaching/teaching: on the Good News of humanity's full and effective inclusion in Christ's atoning work or on humanity's call to participate in it by faith? In no respect does faith "activate" salvation. Barth thought the former; Torrance the same. "Therefore repent and believe the good news" comes at the end of Gospel, in full awareness of their inclusion in it, and not set as a condition upon receiving it. Those who believe receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, the surety of their salvation. Those who don't, we leave to the righteous, just, and merciful (all contained in the meaning of one word in Hebrew) judgment of God in Christ. It is not our call to make; hence the tension.

From my take on your understanding of Hunsinger, you may have missed the efficacy of the objective pole ~ that all truly does mean all ~ thus (still) throwing the entire weight of salvation on the backs of respondents, that being their obligation to believe in order to receive. Or from the other Federal Calvinist side, making God the bad guy for electing only some to salvation (I know, I know; it's really our fault).

Thoughts?

the good news being the (empowerment/grace) through (His) work
and the encouragement to repent, believe and receive.

It's always God's call to make and He, not our doctrines on the judgement day judges. He is the door.

there is obviously those that deny and thus 2nd death is applicable.

grace/empowerment makes responding capable.

preaching the gospel is thus still a valid need and command to bring the message to those so they (the lost) can access the empowerment to believe and give assurance and involvement with the body (before) judgement.

the commands to
preach the gospel
be a light and ((let)) your light shine
be in fellowship thus letting the lost see the love we have for one another.
we become co laborers with christ in a reconciliation ministry.

all of the above gives the tension and responsibility of the believers
to partner with Christs work The (gospel)

thus Christ does the work forgiving all of sin.

sends the Holy Spirit to empower US to (fully preach) the gospel.

Thus allowing/enabling the lost to activate the grace.

God desires that all should (come) to repentance. no need for coming or repenting if hyper calvinism is true.

the above punctuates all the scriptures that encourage the (church) to preach and display the Gospel and his love.

to reach that middle group who have not heard and if never hear will be judged with His mercy. not ours.

gospel tension is
Christs work
churches commissions and mandates to bring that good news
so that
Gods desire that (all) would (come) to (repent) and yet some will still (deny)

All have the potential to be saved. some will deny.
 

TFTn5280

New member
the good news being the (empowerment/grace) through (His) work
and the encouragement to repent, believe and receive.

It's always God's call to make and He, not our doctrines on the judgement day judges. He is the door.

there is obviously those that deny and thus 2nd death is applicable.

grace/empowerment makes responding capable.

preaching the gospel is thus still a valid need and command to bring the message to those so they (the lost) can access the empowerment to believe and give assurance and involvement with the body (before) judgement.

the commands to
preach the gospel
be a light and ((let)) your light shine
be in fellowship thus letting the lost see the love we have for one another.
we become co laborers with christ in a reconciliation ministry.

all of the above gives the tension and responsibility of the believers
to partner with Christs work The (gospel)

thus Christ does the work forgiving all of sin.

sends the Holy Spirit to empower US to (fully preach) the gospel.

Thus allowing/enabling the lost to activate the grace.

God desires that all should (come) to repentance. no need for coming or repenting if hyper calvinism is true.

the above punctuates all the scriptures that encourage the (church) to preach and display the Gospel and his love.

to reach that middle group who have not heard and if never hear will be judged with His mercy. not ours.

gospel tension is
Christs work
churches commissions and mandates to bring that good news
so that
Gods desire that (all) would (come) to (repent) and yet some will still (deny)

All have the potential to be saved. some will deny.

Good post. You're getting there.
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
:bang:

:nono:

Universalism = everyone is saved.

Universal Atonement = everyone is saved, yet some will deny the Lord who redeemed them.

so saved is not saved?

use words properly
if
you want to communicate effectively

everyone has been redeemed
but
they are not saved
 

TFTn5280

New member
so saved is not saved?

use words properly
if
you want to communicate effectively

everyone has been redeemed
but
they are not saved

I know what words I'm using. In your ignorance and to your shame you do not get the dialectic. Shouldn't you be on your way to mass?
 

Lon

Well-known member
*Lots of links - I think it'll take a bit to get one's feet wet on this particular discussion. It will help dispense some myths and strawmen concerning those who are Reformed. We are not all 5 Point Calvinists but think a good many of us are on TOL. I still wrestle between Amyraldian views and 5 points because there are good points on both sides of this discussion.

I would definitely view this thread as potentially instructive and beneficial. At the least, it could be used to link to for some who are so blatantly biased that their threads are caricatures against Calvinism. And, perhaps even correct a stigmatism or two. We really haven't had much Amyraldian discussion on TOL.

On to preliminaries:



Here is a Limited Atonement/Unconditional Election Rebuttal if one has the time and inclination.

It is basically the difference in the Reformed Community, between 5 pts TULIP Calvinism ( Such as RC Sproul and Amyraldism (Calvinist "light" (Such as John Piper).

The 5 points is right to insist on a logical necessity and the Amyraldist is endeavoring to reconcile all scriptures in a meaningful way.

This is a great discussion on TOL because it seeks to bridge gaps between doctrinal divides yet maintain those divides as scripturally necessary.

On TOL, we have extremes of doctrinal positions, even to the exclusion of other theology doctrines, as Christians. The movement of Amyraldianism in these past two centuries, seems to seek to bridge gaps by talking of the overall picture of who is in the Church universal and thus, there is a tendency in this view to also seek to placate all scriptures as well as, to some small degree, all scriptural views regarding soteriology. A universal atonement is the answer to that aim and goal: It is looking at 'who is in Christ' and is concerned with the church universal, rather than denominational/theological barriers. I 'think' the doctrine follows those scriptural lines of thinking, and are included in the works of Karl Barth etc.

I think anyone interested in this OP, would do well to brush up on Amyradianism, though I might be mistaken on that count. I'm currently learning a bit about the diversity in the Reformed Churches. Would it be correct to view the differences as being "hard" Calvinist vs "soft" Calvinists (called "Calminians" in the link)?
 

jsjohnnt

New member
so saved is not saved?
In the account of the prodigal son, both sons were fully accepted by the father, and undeservedly so, but the one son walked away from his blessings and would have died in the absence of those blessings, had he not come to his senses. I think that is what 5280 is talking about. In this parable, I see the universal atonement coupled with the possibility of "salvation lost."

As to the use of the term "dialectic," is it a shame that we have lost the use of that word. 100 years ago, it was a very common word. Karl Marx's book, the Communist Manifesto, had, as a part of its title, "dialectical materialism." At the time, that phrase communicated his thinking. I am 70, and just 40 years ago, I could buy the Marx book with that term on its cover. That is not the case, today.

update: Revelatory truth, is not the result of an existential use of Hegelian process (dialectic). Rather, is it, in the final sense, the blessing of God's interaction between us and our reading of the written word in the spirit of II Pet 1:20-21.

Suffice it to say, that the "dialectic" as a word to describe biblical revelation, does not have a "synthesis" as a resolution to the conflict between "thesis" and the "antithetical" statement. In biblical terms, only God in Christ gives us the solution or synthesis. Whether you want to delve into the use of "dialectic" as a motif of biblical revelation or not, just know that "dialectic" is a hardcore "paradox." While we might see the solution to a paradox, a dialectic needs the involvement of God in Christ to give us answer to the tension between the positive statement and its negative counterpart. Hope this helps.
 
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