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  • #16
    Originally posted by Derf View Post

    I agree with you that the purpose of attending funerals is to grieve with those that lost loved ones. That's why I didn't chastise anyone there about their means of comfort, nor do I feel sufficiently informed, at this point, to chastise even were it the right place or time. But the purpose of TOL, in my mind, is to hash out differences in theology, and means of comfort seem a reasonable target here.

    I've noticed, Lon, that you make the statement without much comment that you hold to the common Christian thought expressed at the funeral I went to--that we are present with Jesus upon death. I think your take on 1 Thess 4 is missing my point. I'm completely fine with the idea that we are to grieve without hopelessness, but the hope that we retain, in the midst of grieving, is one that can be comforted in a particular way, according to Paul. That particular way is NOT what we usually do for grieving friends today.

    I guess my question is this: If Paul's intention was to provide the best words of comfort, wouldn't it have been more comforting to say, "Your loved ones are with Jesus now", instead of saying "At the resurrection your loved ones will be with Jesus", as "hope" would have it?

    Remember that Paul was instructing the Thessalonians about those who had already died, and how those remaining can be hopeful.
    [1Th 4:13 KJV] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    Hopeful of what? Do we hope for something we already have? If the Thessalonians were concerned about their dead loved ones, in a way that was similar to those that have no hope, and the hope was to be with Jesus ([1Th 4:17b KJV] ... so shall we ever be with the Lord.), The best answer Paul could have given was to assure them that their loved ones were already with Jesus, if indeed that was the case. Paul's response seems to indicate that such was not the case for the dead Thessalonians--that they weren't already with Jesus--and thus they needed different words of comfort--that their loved ones would be with Jesus at approximately the same time the living Thessalonians would be with Jesus.

    [Rom 8:24 KJV] For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
    [Rom 8:25 KJV] But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].


    We don't hope for something we already have (that our dead loved ones are with Jesus), but we have hope that they will be with Jesus when Jesus returns.
    Sure. Those who loose loved ones hear this about 20 to 50 times at a funeral. I don't believe the intention is to be glib during a time of great loss, but when such is given that many times, it starts to lose its comfort and for the loved ones, seems words that do not help 'them' in their loss and pain.

    On your other point, we had a youth in our church who was from a strong Catholic family. She died in a car wreck and her parents wanted a Catholic funeral. It was okay, but the Priest told her parents exactly what you are saying: That 'our sister lies in the grave until the resurrection.' It was awful and no comfort but for a future hope.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    ? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

    Comment


    • #17
      Here it is as explicit as can be: John 3:13 King James Version (KJV)

      13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

      Comment


      • #18
        And Jesus said that after many Christians had been killed for becoming Christian preaching the gospel! Surely they would have gone to heaven? But no. They were in their graves and came

        out as testament to Jesus being able to give Christians the gift of resurrection at:

        Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

        51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

        52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

        53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.'

        The moment Jesus died the great thick curtain of the holy of holies was torn open to show that the Ark of the Covenant was supposed to be there but wasn't.
        The Ark Mercy Seat was supposed to be sprinkled with lambs blood once a year and GOD then forgave all the previous years sins of the Jews.
        The Ark had been missing 618 years by the time Jesus died and the Jews had accummulated that many year's sins.
        Not long after Jesus died Stephen was stoned when he told the high priest that he worshipped Moloch under the flag of Remphan.

        At the moment Jesus died a great earthquake shook the area and opened the graves of the dead Christians so they became alive and went about the city to confirm that Jesus was GOD's son.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Lon View Post

          Sure. Those who loose loved ones hear this about 20 to 50 times at a funeral. I don't believe the intention is to be glib during a time of great loss, but when such is given that many times, it starts to lose its comfort and for the loved ones, seems words that do not help 'them' in their loss and pain.
          Words are always difficult at such a time. But I'm wondering more if we are giving erroneous comfort?

          On your other point, we had a youth in our church who was from a strong Catholic family. She died in a car wreck and her parents wanted a Catholic funeral. It was okay, but the Priest told her parents exactly what you are saying: That 'our sister lies in the grave until the resurrection.' It was awful and no comfort but for a future hope.
          Are you saying Paul was giving awful advice for comfort that really isn't a comfort? If Paul's words are true, and if they are exclusively true (i.e., such that "your loved one is already with Jesus" is a false hope), then maybe Paul was giving the best we have available to us, even Christians who have that hope. Why is "your loved one will lie in the grave, but be raised at the resurrection" an awful comfort? Isn't it just because we are more used to the other?

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by WYRose View Post
            Here it is as explicit as can be: John 3:13 King James Version (KJV)

            13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
            Playing the devil's advocate, that was before Jesus Himself ascended to heaven. Couldn't it be the case now, after Jesus's death and resurrection, that there are people in heaven with Jesus now?

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Derf View Post

              Playing the devil's advocate, that was before Jesus Himself ascended to heaven. Couldn't it be the case now, after Jesus's death and resurrection, that there are people in heaven with Jesus now?
              No. All the dead are in their graves and all their thoughts have perished so logically no dead person can know they are dead?
              The Catholic priest, though a doomed idolater himself, was actually telling the truth about the dead person having to wait for resurrection.
              But is that what was really said by a Catholic?

              The facts are that through history GOD has slaughtered perhaps a billion people in The Flood, plagues, Egyptians in the Red Sea crossing. These people had one thing in common: they worshipped false gods and idols. The ones who demanded Aaron make the Golden Calf were killed by Moses and then GOD sent a plague to kill many more.

              As Armageddon looks likely to kill every Christian and the remnant of the true Jews Jesus will suddenly appear and grab the few Christians and Jews, lift them off Earth, and leave the surviving fighters to be subdued by the angels..
              When the battle is over the rapturees will be put down and told the same words as Adam and Eve and Noah heard: Multiply and fill the Earth!
              Jesus will then open the graves or recreate any Christian who was burned to dust and give them eternal life on Earth as they died once as believers.
              4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
              5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
              6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

              For 1000 years the rapturees will have lots of babies to fill the earth while all the resurrected will enjoy living a lovely but celibate life and guiding the children. They died once so will live forever on Earth. The survivors of the nations will also live on earth and have babies while apparently living and believing Jesus and GOD.
              However many of these and some of the babies of the rapturees will carry the SEED-DNA of fthe serpent of the Garden of Eden and be tempted to sin.
              AT the end of the 1000 years Satan and his fallen angels will be released and go around trying to gather human followers. When he has tempted and gathered all the tainted ones GOD will suddenly send fire to destroy them all except Satan who get a lake of fire to himself.
              Then the graves of all the other dead are opened and everyone gets to stand before GOD while He recounts their life and decides if they were deliberately evil or had never heard about being good.
              The evil ones are those who had access to Bibles or Christian preachers but rejected their message.
              The others who never heard of GOD or Jesus but followed pagan practices out of innocence will get a sympathetic hearing.



              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Derf View Post
                Words are always difficult at such a time. But I'm wondering more if we are giving erroneous comfort?

                Are you saying Paul was giving awful advice for comfort that really isn't a comfort? If Paul's words are true, and if they are exclusively true (i.e., such that "your loved one is already with Jesus" is a false hope), then maybe Paul was giving the best we have available to us, even Christians who have that hope. Why is "your loved one will lie in the grave, but be raised at the resurrection" an awful comfort? Isn't it just because we are more used to the other?
                He didn't say "at the next funeral." Wait a bit before trying to preach to someone who has lost a loved one? As a believer, I already know my loved one is with the Lord, thus I'm comforted. Having 30 people tell me something I already know on a really hard day? Probably less empathetic on their part. They just are NOT grieving with those who grieve at that point, imho. It is most often said like 'oh well, at least they are in a better place.' Our comfort is absolutely in Jesus Christ and His work. A 'reminder at a funeral' is probably a glib time for it? I think it can be seen so because they definitely don't need the reminder as if "you should not be crying, they are in a better place." Understand?
                My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                ? Yep

                Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by WYRose View Post
                  Here it is as explicit as can be: John 3:13 King James Version (KJV)


                  13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
                  Luke 23:43
                  And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

                  2 Corinthians 2:12, 14; 5:6b, 8
                  I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; such an one caught up to the third heaven...he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter...Whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord...We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

                  To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by User Name View Post

                    Luke 23:43
                    And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

                    2 Corinthians 2:12, 14; 5:6b, 8
                    I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; such an one caught up to the third heaven...he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter...Whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord...We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

                    To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
                    So despite Jesus saying he would be dead three days you say he and the thief flew off to heaven?

                    So tell me why Hebrews 11:32-40 New International Version (NIV)

                    32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets,
                    39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised,


                    If they had not received their rewards by the time Hebrews was written possible 30 years after Jesus returned to heaven why do you say the dead fly off to heaven?
                    The thief is still in his grave just like Gideon etc.

                    You are like so many others in these last Days - you take odd verses and fail to understand them or their context.


                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by WYRose View Post

                      So despite Jesus saying he would be dead three days you say he and the thief flew off to heaven?
                      You should ask yourself why you reject the crystal clear statement of Jesus to the repentant criminal who was crucified with him, as recorded in Luke 23:43, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." The answer is that you are in error because you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God. Jesus said, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (John 11:26). This refers to the fact that although the body may die, the spirit/soul will live on with the Lord. When Jesus and the criminal died on their crosses, they went to paradise together in spirit. As Jesus also said:

                      John 8:51
                      Truly, truly, I tell you, if anyone keeps My word, he will never see death.

                      Here, Jesus is clearly referring not to the death of the physical body--which generally comes upon us all with some exceptions--but to the death of the spirit/soul. And Jesus says that whoever keeps his word will never see that death.

                      You should also ask yourself why you reject the clear statement of Paul in 2 Cor 2:12-14 that he "knew a man in Christ" (himself) who was "caught up into paradise". Paul states that he "cannot tell" whether he was "in the body" or "out of the body" when this experience happened. In other words, he is claiming that for all he knew it may have been an "out-of-body experience." These are scriptural proofs that the spirit/soul can and will live outside of, or without, the physical body. The resurrection of the physical body is a separate event altogether.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        You are full of Babylonian nonsense and know no Bible truth as you just take odd verses out of context instead of reading the entire passage.

                        However you are welcome to maintain your pagan beliefs.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          John 8:51 clearly means that True Christians will be raised immortal.
                          Even the False Jews who killed Jesus knew that:
                          8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

                          52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

                          53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by WYRose View Post
                            John 8:51 clearly means that True Christians will be raised immortal.
                            The resurrection of the physical body is a separate event altogether.

                            Once again, you must ask yourself why you reject the clear and unmistakable saying of Jesus to the repentant criminal who was crucified next to him, as recorded in Luke 23:43: "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." They died on their crosses and went to paradise in spirit while their bodies were placed in graves.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by User Name View Post


                              Once again, you must ask yourself why you reject the clear and unmistakable fact that when Jesus said to the repentant criminal who was crucified next to him, as recorded in Luke 23:43: "I tell you today, shalt thou be with me in paradise." Jesus could not have taken the thief to paradise as Paradise is to be the renewed Earth. Abd as I've said previously, Jesus went into his tomb for three days.They died on their crosses and their bodies were placed in graves.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by WYRose View Post
                                Jesus could not have taken the thief to paradise as Paradise is to be the renewed Earth. Abd as I've said previously, Jesus went into his tomb for three days.They died on their crosses and their bodies were placed in graves.
                                You persist in rejecting the clear words of Jesus to the repentant criminal who was crucified next to him, as recorded in Luke 23:43: "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." This is because you deny the existence of the spirit/soul apart from the body and the fact that paradise exists today in the spirit realm.

                                You accuse me of being "full of Babylonian nonsense and know no Bible truth," but in fact it is you who rejects scriptural truths and the clear words of Jesus himself.

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