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WHY THE GODHEAD IS THREE IN ONE

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  • #31
    Originally posted by oatmeal View Post

    Years later, I get a second response.

    Please define persons, Father, Son, Holy Ghost, threefold, personality from the scriptures. Please show where God refers to himself using "threefold" "personality" and "the one Divine being" or trinity, triune, etc.?

    This should be easy for a trinitarian scholar who uses the scripture for the sole evidence for his beliefs.

    Please remember Jesus Christ is coming back to gather us together, I Thessalonians 4:13-17, so please be mindful of that.

    If you believe that God is everywhere present please explain why Jesus Christ will have to return if he already here
    Persons: That having personality.

    ​​​​​​ Genesis 1:26 Christian Standard Bible (CSB)

    26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness. They will rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the livestock, the whole earth, and the creatures that crawl on the earth.”

    Matthew gives reference to the Trinity:

    ​​​​​​ Matthew 28:19 Christian Standard Bible (CSB)

    19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of[a] all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post

      Persons: That having personality.

      ​​​​​​ Genesis 1:26 Christian Standard Bible (CSB)


      26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness. They will rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the livestock, the whole earth, and the creatures that crawl on the earth.”

      Matthew gives reference to the Trinity:

      ​​​​​​ Matthew 28:19 Christian Standard Bible (CSB)


      19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of[a] all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
      In your definition I find no mention of the terms equal or co-equal, is the idea of equality among those persons not a part of your definition?

      If no, why not? Equality is a popular topic in the discussion of the three persons

      Oh, by the way, you have not answered my question about I Timothy 2:5.

      Did you forget?

      Maybe you had not considered that verse and its implications. very few trinitarians seem to notice that verse.

      Could you also define "god" or "God" Theos, Elohim, El, etc. that would fit all the uses of those words in scripture.

      Ie, a general definition that fits all of its differing uses including those where God refers to men as gods, You should know which verses those are.
      "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

      "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

      Pro scripture = Protestant

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by oatmeal View Post

        In your definition I find no mention of the terms equal or co-equal, is the idea of equality among those persons not a part of your definition?

        If no, why not? Equality is a popular topic in the discussion of the three persons

        Oh, by the way, you have not answered my question about I Timothy 2:5.

        Did you forget?

        Maybe you had not considered that verse and its implications. very few trinitarians seem to notice that verse.

        Could you also define "god" or "God" Theos, Elohim, El, etc. that would fit all the uses of those words in scripture.

        Ie, a general definition that fits all of its differing uses including those where God refers to men as gods, You should know which verses those are.
        Reading Genesis 1:26, why would you need to express equality. It is understood if you understand the context. I did not ignore 1 Tim. 2:5, it just doesn't apply. Jesus is only part of the Trinity.
        He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

        Jim Elliot

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by oatmeal View Post

          I stand by my statement that you quoted, for there is no scriptural evidence for a trinity of gods.
          In spite of being proven wrong.

          There is sufficient evidence to conclude that the God breathed word has been tampered with by trinitarian scribes and adherents.
          Without any evidence whatsoever.

          Not only in I John 5 but in Matthew and and I Timothy 3:16

          If you choose to ignore the evidence, that is your choice and your loss
          I have offered a direct argument that specifically addresses your position. You crossing your arms and declaring that you stand by you positon does exactly nothing to refute that argument. In fact, it is worse than that because you refuse to even engage the debate at all. It's as if you think that because you showed up here and declared you position that it is therefore true and unassailable.

          That isn't the way it works. Sorry, but it just isn't.



          Are you a Jehovah's Witness?
          sigpic
          "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post

            Reading Genesis 1:26, why would you need to express equality. It is understood if you understand the context. I did not ignore 1 Tim. 2:5, it just doesn't apply. Jesus is only part of the Trinity.
            Thank you for that.

            Let me address the second statement first. You did not answer my question, you tried to avoid it. Why is that?

            The answer is d., Jesus is referred to the category of men in that verse, he is not referred to the category of God in that verse. That is very plain to me that Jesus is not God, but a man, there fore without a God the Son, a phrase which scripture never uses to describe Jesus, the trinity is impossible.

            Where and how does Genesis 1:26 express equality?

            And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

            For that matter if man is to be made in God's image, why wouldn't you conclude that man is equal to God seeing that man was made in God's image?

            Take Joseph and Mary and Jesus. Whose will did they do when Joseph was told to take Mary and Jesus into Egypt?

            Why was Joseph told and not Mary, why wasn't Jesus told or why didn't Jesus tell Joseph what to do? Were they all equal? I say they were, after all, the three appear together at times.

            Matthew 1:18
            Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

            Matthew 2:13
            And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

            Luke 2:16
            And they came with haste, and found Mary, and Joseph, and the babe lying in a manger.

            Luke 2:33
            And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.

            John 6:42
            And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

            Sorry about that tangent, but after all, why shouldn't I see equality in the above verses?

            So, you make it clear that the Father and the son and the Holy Spirit are equal in your definition.

            "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

            "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

            Pro scripture = Protestant

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Clete View Post
              In spite of being proven wrong.


              Without any evidence whatsoever.



              I have offered a direct argument that specifically addresses your position. You crossing your arms and declaring that you stand by you positon does exactly nothing to refute that argument. In fact, it is worse than that because you refuse to even engage the debate at all. It's as if you think that because you showed up here and declared you position that it is therefore true and unassailable.

              That isn't the way it works. Sorry, but it just isn't.



              Are you a Jehovah's Witness?
              Since you wish to set the standard, please show me how you have proven your case.

              Did you offer any scriptural evidence that all translations and versions are as perfect and pure as when God moved the holy men of God to speak it forth?

              II Peter 1:21

              For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

              Are you suggesting that there is not one copier error, not one translational error, not one interpretation of scripture in all the differing versions of the God breathed word even in all the languages that it is translated into? Are you suggesting that not one iota of meaning or depth of meaning has been lost in all the different manuscripts, texts and versions that man has produced?

              Please prove that all versions and texts and manuscripts say exactly the same thing in every verse in comparison to the God breathed scripture.

              II Timothy 3:16

              16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

              Please be quick about it , for Jesus is returning to gather up the Christians as described in I Thessalonians 4:13-17

              13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

              14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

              15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

              16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

              17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

              That could happen today.
              "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

              "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

              Pro scripture = Protestant

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by oatmeal View Post

                Since you wish to set the standard, please show me how you have proven your case.
                It depends on what you mean by proven.

                What I've done is present an argument that I have no evidence that you've even read. If you have read it, you are either unwilling or unable to respond to it, nevermind refute it.

                In other words, the burden of proof is on you, not me. The fact is that the Johannine Comma is in the bible. If you want it removed, it is on you to demonstrate why. My argument proves that demonstrating such is not possible.(It isn't actually "my argument". I've merely presented someone else's work.)

                Did you offer any scriptural evidence that all translations and versions are as perfect and pure as when God moved the holy men of God to speak it forth?
                I wouldn't ever grant you the intellectual ground that would be required for me to even broach that subject.

                In other words, it isn't relevant. My argument has to do with whether the Johannine Comma is a valid part of the bible.

                II Peter 1:21

                For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

                Are you suggesting that there is not one copier error, not one transnational error, not one interpretation of scripture in all the differing versions of the God breathed word even in all the languages that it is translated into? Are you suggesting that not one iota of meaning or depth of meaning has been lost in all the different manuscripts, texts and versions that man has produced?

                Please prove that all versions and texts and manuscripts say exactly the same thing in every verse in comparison to the God breathed scripture.
                This is called moving the goal posts. It's only done by someone who has lost the debate.



                I notice that there is no answer to the single most important question I asked. I'll give you one single more opportunity to answer it...


                Are you a Jehovah's Witness?

                ANYTHING other than a straight forward, unambiguous denial will be considered an answer in the affirmative and will end this discussion. I DO NOT DISCUSS ANYTHING WITH CULTISTS.

                Clete
                sigpic
                "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                Comment


                • #38

                  Originally posted by oatmeal View Post

                  You bring up an interesting point.

                  Years ago, I made the very same point you are making, that is, what is the definition of the trinity?

                  It may have been over the course of several months that I persisted to request, ask , from trinitarians, any trinitarian for a definition of the trinity.

                  After what seemed like several months, I think I received only one reply

                  With all the trinitarians that are members on this website, I would have thought that most trinitarians would be able to define what they believe the trinity is.

                  Alas, I was wrong, most trinitarians cannot or refuse to define what the trinity is.

                  Say, in 25-50 words, please define what the trinity is.

                  Then and only then can we discuss with any semblance of intelligent, scriptural dialogue the status of the trinity in scripture.

                  Why are trinitarians reluctant to define the trinity?
                  Wait a second. So you enjoy spending your time publishing your hostility to a mere phrase which you're admitting you have never even defined--"the trinity"?
                  When you say "the trinity", are you calling something "the trinity", or not?
                  • If not, then why do you expect anybody to take your meaningless ravings seriously?
                  • If you are, then you'd better get to defining what it is you're calling "the trinity", you hypocrite. 25-50 words--get to it, hypocrite!

                  You obviously at least pretend to distinguish some persons from others, calling some persons "trinitarians". You'd better get around to defining your use of your phrase, "trinitarians", then, you nakedly-stupid, Christ-despising hypocrite--unless, of course, you want those of us on TOL who (unlike yourself) are Biblically-thinking, rationally-thinking people to continue to understand that you've nothing meaningful to say.

                  Do you just really hate the mere phrase, "the trinity"? Is that it? Is your animosity merely phrase-deep?

                  I would have thought that most trinitarians would be able to define what they believe the trinity is.
                  Would you have thought that you would be able to define what (if anything) you are referring to when you say, "the trinity"? But, why wouldn't you? Without being able to define what (if anything) you are referring to by your use of the phrase, "the trinity", why would you even be using the phrase, "the trinity"?

                  Why are you so reluctant to define what (if anything) you are calling "the trinity", in your TOL ravings?
                  All my ancestors are human.
                  PS: All your ancestors are human.
                  PPS: To all you cats, dogs, monkeys, and other assorted house pets whose masters are outsourcing the task of TOL post-writing to you (we know who you are )– you may disregard the PS.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Clete View Post
                    It depends on what you mean by proven.

                    What I've done is present an argument that I have no evidence that you've even read. If you have read it, you are either unwilling or unable to respond to it, nevermind refute it.

                    In other words, the burden of proof is on you, not me. The fact is that the Johannine Comma is in the bible. If you want it removed, it is on you to demonstrate why. My argument proves that demonstrating such is not possible.(It isn't actually "my argument". I've merely presented someone else's work.)


                    I wouldn't ever grant you the intellectual ground that would be required for me to even broach that subject.

                    In other words, it isn't relevant. My argument has to do with whether the Johannine Comma is a valid part of the bible.


                    This is called moving the goal posts. It's only done by someone who has lost the debate.



                    I notice that there is no answer to the single most important question I asked. I'll give you one single more opportunity to answer it...


                    Are you a Jehovah's Witness?

                    ANYTHING other than a straight forward, unambiguous denial will be considered an answer in the affirmative and will end this discussion. I DO NOT DISCUSS ANYTHING WITH CULTISTS.

                    Clete
                    According to EW Bullinger, a trinitarian, in his Companion Bible, "The texts read, "the Spirit and the water", and c., omitting all the words from "in heaven" to "in earth" (v.8) inclusive. The words are not found in any Gr. MS. before the sixteenth century. They are first seen in the margin of some Latin copies. Thence they have crept into the text."

                    You will conclude whatever you want to from that, but for me, it is clear that people have tampered with the God breathed Word.
                    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

                    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

                    Pro scripture = Protestant

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by oatmeal View Post

                      According to EW Bullinger, a trinitarian, in his Companion Bible, "The texts read, "the Spirit and the water", and c., omitting all the words from "in heaven" to "in earth" (v.8) inclusive. The words are not found in any Gr. MS. before the sixteenth century. They are first seen in the margin of some Latin copies. Thence they have crept into the text."

                      You will conclude whatever you want to from that, but for me, it is clear that people have tampered with the God breathed Word.
                      What I conclude is that you are a member of a unchristian cult and not worth one more second of my time.
                      sigpic
                      "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Clete View Post

                        What I conclude is that you are a member of a unchristian cult and not worth one more second of my time.
                        Conclude what you will, I have presented to you scripture.

                        Which, evidently, you reject.
                        "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

                        "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

                        Pro scripture = Protestant

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by oatmeal View Post

                          Conclude what you will, I have presented to you scripture.

                          Which, evidently, you reject.
                          Scripture to present your cult material?
                          He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

                          Jim Elliot

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Jesus spoke the truth, when He said - "My Father is greater than I"

                            My theology is that the elect of Israel became the scattered church among the nations, and when filled up with the full number of gentiles who believe to become one with them, then Christ will return and gather them, and God will then pour out His wrath on the unbelievers of both Jew and Gentile.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Lazy afternoon View Post
                              Jesus spoke the truth, when He said - "My Father is greater than I"
                              That is what God said AS A MAN. What else should a man say?
                              Oh how I love the Word of God!

                              Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by God's Truth View Post

                                That is what God said AS A MAN. What else should a man say?
                                Joh 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.' "

                                My theology is that the elect of Israel became the scattered church among the nations, and when filled up with the full number of gentiles who believe to become one with them, then Christ will return and gather them, and God will then pour out His wrath on the unbelievers of both Jew and Gentile.

                                Comment

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