Is Baptism a requirement for Salvation

[Right Divider]

and who would you suggest?

1Co 11:1 KJV Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.​

Paul did NOT follow the minister of the circumcision. He followed the RISEN Lord Jesus Christ that gave instructions uniquely to Paul for the body of Christ.

If you do not rightly divide the word of truth, you will confuse God's instructions.

 

[Bright Raven]

1Co 11:1 KJV Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.​

Paul did NOT follow the minister of the circumcision. He followed the RISEN Lord Jesus Christ that gave instructions uniquely to Paul for the body of Christ.

If you do not rightly divide the word of truth, you will confuse God's instructions.

So are you saying there is a difference in Jesus after the resurrection?

 

[Right Divider]

So are you saying there is a difference in Jesus after the resurrection?

I'm saying that after His ASCENSION He gave Paul revelation regarding things previously unrevealed.

 

[Bright Raven]

I'm saying that after His ASCENSION He gave Paul revelation regarding things previously unrevealed.

Are you saying that what was revealed to Paul was different than that revealed to the apostles. If so, in what way?

 

[Right Divider]

Are you saying that what was revealed to Paul was different than that revealed to the apostles. If so, in what way?

You're getting to a VERY large topic here. Paul makes clear many, many times that he received NEW information that was never before revealed.

Rom 16:25-27 KJV Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: (27) To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. ​

Note that Paul is saying that the revelation of the mystery was keep secret since the world began, but is NOW made manifest.

The "and by the scriptures of the prophets" refers to the "power to stablish", which requires knowledge of BOTH the old and the new.

Paul also says that this mystery was "hid in God".

Eph 3:9 KJV And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God,who created all things by Jesus Christ:​

... Until it was revealed to and through Paul.

 

[Bright Raven]

You're getting to a VERY large topic here. Paul makes clear many, many times that he received NEW information that was never before revealed.

Rom 16:25-27 KJV Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: (27) To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. ​

Note that Paul is saying that the revelation of the mystery was keep secret since the world began, but is NOW made manifest.

The "and by the scriptures of the prophets" refers to the "power to stablish", which requires knowledge of BOTH the old and the new.

Paul also says that this mystery was "hid in God".

Eph 3:9 KJV And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God,who created all things by Jesus Christ:​

... Until it was revealed to and through Paul.

Thank you RD.

 

[Right Divider]

Thank you RD.

You're welcome BR.

 

[ttruscott]

Not how?:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess. 2:13).

Chosen through...belief of the truth.

While I do accept that our election must have been conditional and that the necessary condition for election was having A free will faith in the truth we had heard in the beginning, I don't think this verse teaches us this doctrine...

I accept the phrase "through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" to modify salvation, not the verb has chosen. In other words, "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation [achieved] through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth..."

As far as I found, the commentaries suggest this interpretation as an ordinary suggestion so I will paste one to elucidate the interpretation:
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
Hath . . . chosen.—The Greek tense should be rendered by chose, referring to the definite moment (so to speak) in the divine counsels when the choice was fixed. This moment is defined as “from the beginning,” i.e., from the eternity preceding the origin of time…

...which I also conclude is mentioned in Col 1:23, the proclamation of the gospel that every person made in HIS image has already heard and which formed the basis for our election.


Ellicott continues:
Through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.—This again teaches us the apostolic idea of election. It is not an absolute irreversible predestination to a particular state of happiness on which the elect is to enter after death. The “salvation” is present, begun in this life (Ephesians 2:5; Ephesians 2:8), and carried on along fixed lines, namely, “in sanctification of spirit and belief of truth” (such is the literal rendering). The preposition “in” has here the same force as in 1Thessalonians 4:4; 1Thessalonians 4:7, namely, “by way of,” “by a course of.”

I would like to make the case for the phrase to modify chosen as that sort of fits into Pre-Conception Existence theology but in a somewhat clumsy way. That is, my conception of the faith that got us elected was a pure faith of an innocent, not a sanctified (ie made holy and righteous) faith because after we were elected for that faith in HIM, we later sinned (His flock went astray into sin and the good seed are sinful) and that is why we must live here with the reprobate until we are sanctified for the time of the harvest.

 

[genuineoriginal]

So, water baptism for the remission of sins does not put away the filth of the flesh? Explain.

Water baptism is the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Mark 1:4 4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.​

It is not the baptism that puts away the filth of the flesh, it is the repentance that is responsible for the remission of sins.

Luke 24:46-47 46 And said unto them, [JESUS]Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:[/JESUS] 47 [JESUS]And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.[/JESUS]​

The message of repentance for the remission of sins is found throughout the Bible.

Acts 3:19 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.​

Don't you know, you can't wash away your sins, you have to be circumcised to escape your sin.

This is what Paul said about people that try to preach circumcision as an escape from sin:

Galatians 5:12 ERV 12 I wish those people who are bothering you would add castration to their circumcision.​

 

[genuineoriginal]

Don't you know that the gospel has the God given power to baptize without water?

I don't remember seeing any verses to support your claim.
Is it from a doctrine of men instead of the Bible?

You apparently can't see anything concerning salvation without a sign. As paul said...

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

Are you unable to provide verses to support your claim that the gospel can baptize without water?

 

[genuineoriginal]

Why was Paul sent not to water baptize?

Paul was sent to preach repentance.

Acts 20:21 21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.​

Paul was not sent to baptize people because the people would assume Paul was baptizing in his own name.

1 Corinthians 1:14-15 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.​

 

[genuineoriginal]

Did Jesus have to fulfill all righteousness?

In order to reach His goal, Jesus had to fulfill all righteousness.

 

[genuineoriginal]

baptism and circumcision are ... rituals should not be performed by men now because they fly in the face of God.

You are mistaken.

 

[heir]

Greetings “heir”, I appreciate your response and you seem to be used to a different environment with different teaching. Ephesians 4:1-6 in my understanding is instruction to those who have already believed the Gospel and had become members of the Congregation at Ephesus when they had been baptised in water.

These Ephesians were NEVER baptized into anything except the Body of Christ BY one Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV) having trusted the Lord believing 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, the gospel of theirs and our salvation (Ephesians 1;13-14 KJV).

To give an example of my environment as teenagers we were taught aspects of the Gospel at Sunday School and at the Public Address on Sunday Evening, and often the Evening Address would conclude with the following event and instruction:
Mark 16:15–16 (KJV): 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Matthew 28:18–20 (KJV): 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Both of those passages you cite are totally true. They're just not true TO you or me. They were not written for our obedience, but Israel's past and future.

Our Sunday School teacher often used the following sequence of quotes: Galatians 13:14-15, Galatians 3:8,16,26-29. He was teaching us that the Gospel included the promise of the Land to Abraham and his Seed, and that the believer in Christ could inherit this Land promise by belief and baptism into Christ.

There are three inheritances in the Bible and I'm glad you can see that Abraham and his seed will inherit the land as in Genesis 17:8 KJV, but that is not the inheritance of those in this age who trust the Lord believing 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV as the means of our salvation. Ours is heaven (Philippians 3:20-21 KJV)/heavenly places in Christ (Ephesians 2:6 KJV).

A few of my mates were baptised when 19 or 20, while I was baptised when I was 21. This was our environment then, and we maintain this today, baptising our children in their later teens and interested friends upon a belief and confession of the Gospel when they wanted to be identified with Christ's death and resurrection and the hope of the return of Jesus to establish His Kingdom.

I'm sorry you and they don't know that one is identified BY THE SPIRIT into one Body and not by water (1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV). We are partakers of Christ by the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV), not water baptism (Ephesians 3:6 KJV).

I subscribe to the teaching that there is only One Gospel and one method of salvation, justification by belief of the One Gospel from Eden to now.

Kind regards
Trevor

I really hope you unsubscribe, get saved by trusting the Lord's work 2000 years ago in your place (Romans 4:25 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, 2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV, 2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV, as the all sufficient work of your salvation instead of trying to add yours in there (Romans 4:4-5 KJV).

FYI, there are many gospels in the Bible and many different things that don't say the same thing and would be impossible to obey at the same time. YOu really need to take off your denominational glasses and look at who the scriptures are speaking to and what they say believing they mean what they say, as they say it and to whom while recognizing they aren't all talking TO you.

 

[heir]

Most of Churchianity and most of the people on this site are Bible blenders/mashers. It's a common problem and leads to all kinds of confusion.

Yes, It's maddening and sad all at the same time.Until people are willing to make the Bible their final authority they will never get out of the snare of the devil.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Christ told the apostles to not go to the Gentiles
Why did Christ tell the apostles to not go to Gentiles?

Daniel was given a prophecy of a four hundred and ninety year time period that was given for the children of Israel to repent as a nation.
Jesus began His earthly ministry at the beginning of the last seven years of that time.

Jesus told the disciples to concentrate on telling the gospel to the children of Israel because there wasn't much time left to get them to repent and escape destruction.
The last act recorded during the four hundred and ninety year time period was the stoning of Stephen.
After that, the disciples went to Samaria and to the Gentiles.

 

[ttruscott]

Grade F!
unconditional election can only necessitate election.

Please consider:

IF there was a condition that the non-elect had that forbid their election, then none of the elect could have had that condition...which is the condition for their election, that is, they did not share the condition of the non-elect that made them unsuitable for election.

IF there was indeed no condition found in those passed over for election then they were free from all dismerit which means they were just as able to be chosen, just as perfect a candidate for election, as everyone else as there was no reason for their being passed over. No sin was found in them so they were innocent of all guilt.

This doctrine implies that innocents are suffering eternal hell for no reason. Period.

The refusal to elect innocents unto a sure salvation from future sin for no reason found in them is also a decison to choose some innocents to be condmened for any future sin and so to end in hell even if it were only a decision to ignore them.

This is a hard position to hold because 1. it contradicts HIS character as loving, righteous and just and 2. A GOD who acts for no reason (and unknown reason would make election conditional - only no reason makes our election unconditional) in such matters of a life and eternal death and suffering is especially hard to accept as such a capricious nature could not be trusted and our faith would be in a god of shifting sand which does NOT describe YHWH: Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD.

 

[genuineoriginal]

You're getting to a VERY large topic here. Paul makes clear many, many times that he received NEW information that was never before revealed.

Rom 16:25-27 KJV Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: (27) To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. ​

Note that Paul is saying that the revelation of the mystery was keep secret since the world began, but is NOW made manifest.

The "and by the scriptures of the prophets" refers to the "power to stablish", which requires knowledge of BOTH the old and the new.

Paul also says that this mystery was "hid in God".

Eph 3:9 KJV And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God,who created all things by Jesus Christ:​

... Until it was revealed to and through Paul.

Paul revealed the mystery is this:

Ephesians 3:4-6 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I accept the phrase "through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" to modify salvation, not the verb has chosen. In other words, "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation [achieved] through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth..."

Let us look at the following verse:

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours" (1Cor.1:2).​

In The Expositor's Bible Commentary we read the following about the meaning of the Greek word translated "sanctified" at 1 Corinthians 1:2:

"The word 'sanctify' bears here a somewhat different meaning from that which we commonly attach to it. It means rather that which is set apart or destined to holy uses than that which has been made holy. It is in this meaning the word is used by our Lord when He says, 'For your sakes I sanctify'-or set apart-' Myself.' The Church by its very existence is a body of men and women set apart for a holy use."​

The following verse does tie the Body of Christ" together with the phrase "in Christ":

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Ro.12:5).

It is by the baptism performed by the Holy Spirit whereby believers are made members of the Body of Christ:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

The following verse demonstrates that the election performed by God is directly tied to the "sanctification of the Spirit" or to the believer being baptized into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).​

With all this in view let us look at the following verse again:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess. 2:13).​

God chooses those who believe for salvation and the moment when they believe they are saved by being baptized into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul revealed the mystery is this:

That refers to the "mystery of Christ" but "the mystery" which Paul makes reference concerns the purpose of the Cross, that believers are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).