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  • Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    I provided verses that showed that your proof texts do not show the whole story and that your conclusions were in error because you failed to consider the complete testimony of scripture.
    All you did was to quote verses which you think proves that what John, Peter and James wrote is in error.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
      I do not believe in doing works for salvation.
      You do not think that people are saved by faith alone, do you?

      What besides believing is necessary for salvation?
      "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Jn.1:16).

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
        All you did was to quote verses which you think proves that what John, Peter and James wrote is in error.
        Not quite.
        I do not think John, Peter, and James wrote anything in error.
        I do see that there are some verses in the Bible that appear to contradict other verses in the Bible.
        Those apparent contradictions can be resolved through more study, but cannot be resolved by focusing on a single verse and ignoring everything else as you have been doing.
        Learn to read what is written.

        _____
        The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
        ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
          You do not think that people are saved by faith alone, do you?
          Since the Bible states quite clearly that faith alone is dead, then nobody can possibly be saved by faith alone.

          James 2:17
          17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.



          Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
          What besides believing is necessary for salvation?
          "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Jn.1:16).

          Matthew 24:13
          13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.



          Mark 16:16
          16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.



          Acts 2:21
          21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.



          Romans 10:9
          9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

          Learn to read what is written.

          _____
          The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
          ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

          Comment


          • Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
            If there really is none righteous, no not one, then the Bible is filled with false statements about righteous people.
            If the entire Bible is true, then that verse must have suffered from being misinterpreted and misused.

            Are There Really None Righteous?

            The none righteous not even one phrase has been horrible misused and the image of a Christian has been distorted thereby.
            the frequently quoted verse from Romans 3:10 which states that there is no one that is righteous. That verse reads:
            As it is written: There is no one righteous, not even one ....
            Because this verse is so universally known among those who profess salvation and claim to believe the Bible, it is important to examine this carefully.

            it becomes apparent that there are numerous examples of actual named people who were righteous. Please note the following Scriptures:
            This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God. (Gen 6:9)
            Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly. (Mat 1:19)
            Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. (Luke 2:25)
            And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. (Mat 23:35)
            and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard) (2 Pet 2:7,8)

            one must repent (turn from his sins) or he will perish. Hence, the faith in Jesus that is needed to be considered righteous is a trusting and submitting faith - one that obeys. Furthermore, it is imperative to endure to the very end of your life to enter God's paradise kingdom (Mt. 10:22; Heb. 3:14 and Rev. 2:10,11). If you are a real Christian now, you are righteous, but sin can change that righteous standing and bring you to your spiritual death, just like it did for both Adam and Eve.

            I can copy and paste too...

            Mat_13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

            Deu_9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

            Deu_9:6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

            Mat_23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

            Job_35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?

            Mar_2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

            Job_36:3 I will fetch my knowledge from afar, and will ascribe righteousness to my Maker.

            Rom_2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
            Rom_3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

            sa_4:1 To the chief Musician on Neginoth, A Psalm of David. Hear me when I call, O God of my righteousness: thou hast enlarged me when I was in distress; have mercy upon me, and hear my prayer.

            1Ti_1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

            sa_31:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. In thee, O LORD, do I put my trust; let me never be ashamed: deliver me in thy righteousness.

            2Ti_4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

            Psa_51:14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

            Pro_12:17 He that speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: but a false witness deceit.

            1Jn_2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

            Isa_5:23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

            er_23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

            ze_33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.

            Mat_6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

            Rom_3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

            Rom_3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

            Rom_4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

            Rom_4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

            Rom_9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

            2Co_5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

            2Co_11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

            Rev_22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is
            righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

            Php_1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

            Php_3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

            2Ti_4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

            Mat_5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

            Isa_41:26 Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and beforetime, that we may say, He is righteous? yea, there is none that sheweth, yea, there is none that declareth, yea, there is none that heareth your words.
            Isa_57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
            Rom_3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

            Comment


            • Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
              I know what the scriptures teach and know that you are misusing the word "dispensation" because of the foolishness of Darby and the like.
              The blame game won't work with me, try harder.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                Protestants think so much about "works salvation" that they keep missing the mark on that point.

                I do not believe in doing works for salvation.
                I believe that you can only condemn yourself by doing wicked works but you cannot save yourself by doing good works.
                That is what the scriptures tell us.


                Being baptized will not save me, it is an outward act prompted by an inward belief.

                The Apostle Paul said this:

                Romans 10:13
                13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


                Do you believe you can be saved without calling upon the name of the Lord?
                I don't.

                Do you believe calling on the name of the Lord is "works salvation"?
                I don't.

                Here is how to call upon the name of the Lord to be saved.

                Psalm 6:4
                4 Return, O Lord, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.
                If someone took your water baptism rite away from you and told you it was mere hogwash how would you feel about it?

                Comment


                • Greetings again Jerry,
                  Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                  The word "gospel" is a translation for a Greek word which means "glad tidings" or "good news."

                  The "good news" which was preached to the Jews during the Acts period and resulted in those who believed it being born of God is the fact that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (Jn.20:30-31, 1 Jn.5:1-5).

                  The "good news" which was preached to the Gentiles during the Acts period concerns the fact that believers are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24, Col.1:5-6).

                  Both are "good news" or gospel but they are not the same gospel.
                  I appreciate your response and I am sure there has been much written on this subject in an attempt to distinguish between these two concepts, and possibly much written in discussing this. For my part I equate the two as being ways of expressing aspects of the one Gospel. Abraham was justified by faith when he believed the promise concerning the seed in Genesis 15:5-6. I understand that this involves forgiveness of sins, and another way of expressing this is "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24, Col.1:5-6). This is the result of preaching the One Gospel, from Eden till now.

                  Kind regards
                  Trevor

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by heir View Post
                    As with everything with God, there was an order for them. The apostles were under this command of the Lord:

                    Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

                    Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

                    until

                    Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

                    The "go ye therefore", when they will go and teach all nations is when the Lord returns (second coming) with "all power"...

                    As to now (nothing to do with what was and will go on in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John) where the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles (Romans 11:13 KJV) given the dispensation of the grace of God to us (Ephesians 3:1-9 KJV). We are partakers by the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 3:6 KJV) and our only baptism is identification BY ONE SPIRIT IN ONE BODY (1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV). Where we are concerned, the Spirit is the baptizer, not Jesus "with the Holy Ghost", by man (like John the Baptist or Peter) in water (a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins), or fire as in other places in the Bible. Our baptism is unique to just the church, which is His Body!

                    You keep saying "the apostles" as if every time any apostle in the Bible is mentioned or separated unto a gospel, it includes all of them. What does verse 1 of Romans 1 say? Does it say "the apostles" or does it say "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,"? Why "the gospel" talk as if there is only one? Since you cited Romans, I'll use them to demonstrate more than one gospel.

                    The Romans had a faith in the gospel of God/the WHO of Jesus Christ (Romans 1:1-4 KJV that's one gospel) but needed to be established by Paul's gospel/the gospel of Christ/the WHY of the cross. It's the purpose of Paul's letter to them (Romans 1:9-15 KJV)! Paul took the first 8 chapters of Romans to describe it. To summarize the WHY of the cross in one verse in Romans, I would send you to Romans 4:25 KJV. That gospel (Paul's gospel) was before a mystery kept secret until revealed to and through and committed to Paul by God only be wise (Romans 16:25-27 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV, Galatians 1:11-12 KJV). None of the above in Romans, (with the exception of the gospel of God) has to do with the gospel of the kingdom in time past or ages to come in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Hebrews through Revelation when it will be preached again (not to mention the everlasting gospel preached by angels in Revelation). You need to rightly divide the gospel of YOUR salvation with those. What is the gospel of YOUR salvation?

                    No, the covenant of promise to which the Gentiles to whom Paul was first sent (including the Galatians) were benefactors is a blessing for blessing Israel according to Genesis 12 and the promise of the Spirit through faith.

                    Genesis 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will show thee:
                    Genesis 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
                    Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

                    ...

                    Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

                    "one gospel" is a made up term and it won't fly here. The Galatians were not baptized "by water" as you say, but identified Into Christ's death (Romans 6:3-4 KJV). That only happened for them and us by extension "by one Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV), not by water!

                    In the passage you cited, there are no false gospels only very real gospels that were being preached. "Unto you" the Galatians, had any of those other gospels been preached to them as unto them, it would have been a perversion of the gospel of Christ which is exactly what the Galatians were being bewitched to believe as they were being constrained to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses (Acts 15:5 KJV) all in keeping with other gospels in the Bible but not Paul's gospel).

                    All of the Bible does not say all the same thing to the same people anymore than we are all going to the same place. You must 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV!
                    I feel this is worthy to be repeated.

                    Comment


                    • [MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION]

                      Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                      The word "gospel" is a translation for a Greek word which means "glad tidings" or "good news."

                      The "good news" which was preached to the Jews during the Acts period and resulted in those who believed it being born of God is the fact that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (Jn.20:30-31, 1 Jn.5:1-5).

                      The "good news" which was preached to the Gentiles during the Acts period concerns the fact that believers are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24, Col.1:5-6).

                      Both are "good news" or gospel but they are not the same gospel.
                      If thy are not the same gospel then how can they have the same promises concerning eternal life?

                      Do you see any difference in what is/was received regarding the promise of eternal life being you grant eternal life to both yet they believed different gospels?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by TrevorL View Post
                        For my part I equate the two as being ways of expressing aspects of the one Gospel.
                        So you are willing to actually argue that the "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, is the same "good news" that believers are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Ktoyou View Post
                          Grade F!
                          unconditional election can only necessitate election.
                          Agreed.

                          Not one aspect of Justification ("salvation from God") is conditional upon any action of the sinner saved.
                          "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

                          " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
                          Gordon H. Clark

                          "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
                          Charles Spurgeon

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Nang View Post
                            Not one aspect of Justification ("salvation from God") is conditional upon any action of the sinner saved.
                            "Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace" (Ro.5:1-2).

                            "And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house"
                            (Acts 16:30-31).
                            Last edited by Jerry Shugart; September 28th, 2019, 09:45 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Greetings again Jerry,
                              Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                              So you are willing to actually argue that the "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, is the same "good news" that believers are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"?
                              Yes, but I do not see the need to argue, but simply state that we need to believe the Gospel that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and this belief will result in justification by faith, and as such this is being "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus".
                              John 20:30–31 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

                              Kind regards
                              Trevor

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by TrevorL View Post
                                Greetings again Jerry,Yes, but I do not see the need to argue, but simply state that we need to believe the Gospel that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and this belief will result in justification by faith, and as such this is being "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus".
                                Are you saying that once a person is saved by believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, that at the same time he is believing that believers are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"?

                                Comment

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