Satan
- Thread starter Oleander
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What Jesus accomplished on the cross turned the tables on sin and death. God gave Jesus the authority to lay down His life and take it up again. There is a scripture for it. God sent His Son to be the Savior of the world. The same. There were people who became His betrayers and murderers, another one.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
I'm not sure if this will even partly answer your question, but my mind goes to the book of Job. God directed Satan to Job. Not once, but twice (Job 1:8 and Job 2:3)! One might think Satan would get suspicious of God doing such a thing - but I think that (at least in part) is a result of a wrong idea of Satan and God. If we look at human history as something of a chess match between a Grandmaster (God) and a decent amateur player, I think we already are seriously skewing the truth. That makes the fall something of an accident that God has to patch up and the last several thousand years the time God has taken to get to the point where He can properly do that. But there is something said about Him that is unique - that He knows all His works completely ahead of time (Isaiah 45:21 and Acts 15:18). Which means He must know all things ahead of time since if there is anything that can't be called "His works" He has to know how His works will be affected (and affect them). Thus, in one sense or another, all things are His works - all things are of God (ultimately). As Isaiah says, He makes peace and creates evil (He is NOT the author of sin, but He also isn't merely reacting to it appearing at some point in history). So the story of Job should make us realize that God is not simply outsmarting Satan over and over again - as though sin keeps on rearing its ugly head and God keeps having to do something about it - but from the beginning, the Lord's work was accomplished and we are seeing it worked out over time.
I suspect - and I don't have the sophistication to prove it biblically (but nothing against it, that I am aware of) - that when Satan was cast out of the garden, everything was already decreed by God. That is, He could already foretell Christ (Gen 3:15) because what He had done was eternally complete (Rev 13:8 certainly seems to hint at that as well). Thus everything that would happen from day 1 to the end will ultimately glorify God. Even what seems utterly evil (Psalm 76:10). Which means that when Satan presented himself to God, it wasn't "God's move" (so to speak) but it was Satan as an ultimate servant of the will of God. It's hard to comprehend, but the easiest way I know to grasp it is to realize that God works all things according to the counsel of His will (Ephesians 1:11 and Isaiah 46:10). Men can conspire to overthrow the will of God, but it will not happen (Isaiah 8:10). Satan can do what he is able, but he is still subservient to God. See Zechariah 3:1-4 and you will see that Satan can make accusations (and as seen in Job, bring calamity) but God rebukes him for Joshua's sake. In other words, Satan is working to undermine God but it is simply impossible to do. God has provided for Joshua just like He provided for the world. Satan is blinded by self (I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High - Isaiah 14:14).
So to address your points specifically :
1. Satan actually does work against himself in that he is trying to undermine God! That means there is a sense in which he is blinded by pride and can't see what should be plain - there can come no benefit to one's self by resisting God.
2. Satan (I believe) knew that the only way to thwart Christ's ministry and purpose (assuming that were even possible) was to divert Him from the path He was on. I think Satan knew that the cross was his (Satan's) ultimate point of public defeat (Jesus said I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven - Luke 10:18). It is pretty plain from Jesus' temptation in the wilderness that Satan realized all this. And Jesus even called Peter "Satan" when he protested against Jesus going to die. So I don't think there is a question (not in my mind, at least) that Satan knew what he had to do if Jesus were to fail (again, even assuming there was any possibility of that).
3. So when it comes to Satan entering into Judas, I see that as fulfillment of prophecy (Zech 11:12,13) and Satan in a position where it was more him aiming all his hatred and venom at Christ by bringing one of Jesus' own disciples to the point of betraying Him. Again...Jesus said from the beginning that He knew what His situation was and what was to happen (Have not I chosen you twelve and one of you is a devil? - John 6:70). But when He prayed in the garden of Gethsemane to have the cup pass from Him (if there was any other way to accomplish what was needed) it shows me that Satan (who would not have the same understanding of Christ's "mission") probably also had it in the back of his mind that he might be able to pull off something at the last minute if he could put serious doubts into the minds of the disciples. They all forsook Christ, remember.
The bottom line, is that I think that the only reason Satan and God were "agreed" on Jesus dying was because Satan hoped he could have that death ultimately have a different result (either abject failure resulting in no fulfillment because Christ yielded to temptation in the wilderness or driving all the disciples away by tainting Christ's death with the betrayal of one of His own). But remember - that's just the way I see it. I could be wrong.
Think you.
The scripture told us by Jesus own mouth, satan can't work against himself or he'll destroyed.
Satan disobey God from the beginning and he knows for Jesus to stay alive will cause him big headaches.
I understand from your answer, the ones who killed Jesus, also they did only the will of God, then why they were condemned throughout the NT?
Did God was pleased of the ones who put Jesus to death?
If yes, then why the apostles condemn the killers?
Why Jesus hide himself and walk in the dark to avoid the Jews?
The scripture told us by Jesus own mouth, satan can't work against himself or he'll destroyed.
Satan disobey God from the beginning and he knows for Jesus to stay alive will cause him big headaches.
I understand from your answer, the ones who killed Jesus, also they did only the will of God, then why they were condemned throughout the NT?
Did God was pleased of the ones who put Jesus to death?
If yes, then why the apostles condemn the killers?
Why Jesus hide himself and walk in the dark to avoid the Jews?
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Acts 2:22-23
Determinate counsel means God directed the delivering of Christ into the hands of men and knew precisely what He was doing.
The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
Acts 4:26-28
It seems that this very crucifixion was determined by God. He intentionally put Christ into the hands of sinful men and knew precisely what He was doing and what would be the outcome of it. The state of mankind was (and is) such that it cannot and will not receive the truth unless given a heart to do so. No man can come to Jesus except he be drawn by the Father. So God knew precisely what He was doing and man was only doing what was already in His heart. That does not make God responsible for man's sin. The Romans and Jews did not get a "thank you" for doing that which would bring about salvation being introduced into the world - rather they were condemned for doing that which was in their hearts - that they would do such a thing to the Lord of glory. They reveal their Satanic alliance. The ends are not in man's hands - that is in God's hands alone. A man's heart devises his {own} way; but the Lord directs his steps. The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord. Even the wrath of man shall praise Him; the remainder of wrath shall He restrain. Man is judged for his heart - for from that comes his actions.
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Jeremiah 17:9-10
If murder were not in man's heart, then Christ coming to earth would have resulted in something very different. But because of what is there, they are condemned by their actions.
As to why Jesus walked carefully among Israel, He knew what was in man and in his heart. And so He also knew the ruling Jews would not receive Him. Thus, He spoke to them only briefly - enough to prove their unbelief and unwillingness to follow Him. Then, when they started plotting to put Him to death, the condemnation was sealed and so He "...walked no more openly among the Jews..." (John 11:54). He (I believe) wanted to not hurry the time approaching for Him to be crucified so that He could continue among His people (preaching, teaching and healing). The thing that told Him His time had come was when word reached outside Israel to the Greeks
And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:
The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus.
And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
John 12:20-23
I think that's also why He said (on more than one occasion) to someone He had healed : "Tell no one". The quicker His fame spread, the sooner the Gentiles from outside of Israel would show up and seek after Him. He was, remember, only sent to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel (Matthew 15:24). They were to be given ample opportunity to receive the gospel before the message was to go to the rest of the world. That's why (I believe) Jesus said this in John 20.
I hope that answers your questions (or comes close to addressing them).
Jesus did not walk in the dark as you say. It is always wrong to sin, and certainly those who put Jesus to death sinned when they did so.
Thank you,
If we look at the parable of the tenants carefully, we'll see God:
1) didn't sent his son to die but to be respected.
2) He was not pleased of what the killer of his son did, by punishing them and take away the covenant between him and them and give it to other nation.
Please read Matt. 21:33-46
Beside, there are no where in the scripture where God, his prophets or Jesus demand the death of God, his son or any man so we can receive salvation.
On the contrary God hate, and never approved or ask for human sacrifices and animals sacrifice.
If we look at the parable of the tenants carefully, we'll see God:
1) didn't sent his son to die but to be respected.
2) He was not pleased of what the killer of his son did, by punishing them and take away the covenant between him and them and give it to other nation.
Please read Matt. 21:33-46
Beside, there are no where in the scripture where God, his prophets or Jesus demand the death of God, his son or any man so we can receive salvation.
On the contrary God hate, and never approved or ask for human sacrifices and animals sacrifice.
Interesting thoughts. I believe that animal sacrifice is of God when done according to the Torah. Human sacrifice has never been okay.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
This is absolutely wrong. You are taking a parable and putting a meaning into it that was never intended. A parable is intended to illustrate a point but not all parts of it are to be literally taken to their logical extent. Whether or not they reverence the son has no bearing on the reason the son came :
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Matthew 20:28
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
John 12:27
From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Matthew 16:21
It is clear what He came for. There is no ambiguity.
You are wrong about this. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins (Hebrews 9:22) and more clearly, it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement (Lev 7:11)
Good answer Sir.
God never command the sacrifice system to wipe out sins.
Sacrifices were made by man as (penalty) for unintentional sins.
I don't think. If this was command from God why then all the prophets condemn the pratice?
Why if it was a command, God will declare:
I never command the sacrifice system.
Can you show me when a man commits a intentional sin what kind of sacrifice he should offer. NONE.
Sacrifices were made by the levites so they can make living.
Just ask Jesus why he turn the table on their heads when he enter the temple?
Look at the book of Isaiah 1st chapter and how he condemned the jews for shedding blood?
Do you think he will do such a thing if it was God's law or commandment?
Jesus message was: repent the kingdom of God on hand.
Thank you
Sacrifices were made by man as (penalty) for unintentional sins.
I don't think. If this was command from God why then all the prophets condemn the pratice?
Why if it was a command, God will declare:
I never command the sacrifice system.
Can you show me when a man commits a intentional sin what kind of sacrifice he should offer. NONE.
Sacrifices were made by the levites so they can make living.
Just ask Jesus why he turn the table on their heads when he enter the temple?
Look at the book of Isaiah 1st chapter and how he condemned the jews for shedding blood?
Do you think he will do such a thing if it was God's law or commandment?
Jesus message was: repent the kingdom of God on hand.
Thank you
Aimiel
Well-known member
So, was God wrong to command Abraham to sacrifice Isaac? Yes, He did provide a ram as replacement, just as Jesus is the Lamb He chose to replace ALL sacrifices; but nevertheless: He did command Abraham to offer Isaac on the altar of sacrifice.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
So you believe God was testing Abraham to see if he would obey God in committing something He (God) condemns?!? That is not the God of scripture. God said He would provide the sacrifice Himself. So it is clear He didn't condemn or abhor the practice.
Aimiel
Well-known member
If that were true, then why would God provide a ram to take his place? It was sacrificed. God commanded sacrifice for sin and in point-of-fact: planned Jesus being sacrificed for the sin of the world before He laid the foundation of the earth.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
There is a distinction here that needs to be made. Animal sacrifices never could take away sin. But that doesn't mean God didn't require them. Animal sacrifices were NOT instituted by man, but by God. Read Exodus 12. The blood from an animal sacrifice was the only thing that kept the Angel of Death away from the homes of the Israelites while they were in Egypt. It's the origin of Passover (when we celebrate Easter) and points directly to Christ and His sacrifice. It was clearly and directly instituted by God :
And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt saying,
This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.
Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:
And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.
Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.
Exodus 12:1-7
They were to eat it and burn the rest so that nothing was left of it - and the blood was to be on the doorposts. It was a sacrifice and a sacrificial meal in one.
And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the Lord's passover.
For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord.
And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.
Exodus 12:11-14
So :
1. The blood was the sign that they would be spared the plague that would destroy in Egypt
2. The observance was a commandment directly given BY GOD to be observed FOREVER. It had ETERNAL significance.
And what is the meaning of it?
And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.
And it shall come to pass, when ye be come to the land which the Lord will give you, according as he hath promised, that ye shall keep this service.
And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say unto you, What mean ye by this service?
That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the Lord's passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped.
Exodus 12:24-27
So it is a clear reference to sacrifice. And it is significant that we find Jesus himself saying this:
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
John 6:51-56
And He was a sacrifice - the real Passover Lamb Himself.
Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
I Corinthians 5:7
And it is significant that the unleavened bread is mentioned here, because it, too was a part of the original Passover (read spoiler for this passage).
Spoiler
So unleavened bread was an important part of Passover. The feast of unleavened bread is inextricably tied in to Passover - and for the believer in Christ, Easter. Here, also, we find reference to the bread that Jesus identifies with Himself and His flesh.
And to continue the identification with Christ as the sacrificed Lamb, we find in Revelation 5 that He is called the Lamb slain - and receives honor as that Lamb. The passage follows in this spoiler.
Spoiler
And so it is very clear that God commanded this sacrifice and that it is and was central to the salvation of mankind. Not only that, but He had it in mind even before the world was made :
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:8
You need to clearly state that scripture. Your posts are referencing things that have been said in the bible, but you don't post the scripture itself. That can be a good way of changing the meaning of the scripture. Not that it is intentional, but our memories sometimes change things very slightly. That's part of why the written bible is important.
I suspect you are talking about this :
For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
Jeremiah 7:22-23
God's commands are not to sacrifice. God's commands are not to offer burnt offerings. He did tell them to do that in specific circumstances (such as an offering for sin) but as you see with all the prophets, His intent is for His people to follow Him and obey Him. The sacrifices were instituted as a response to sin. But what we find in Israel is that they had made them into a system of sacrifices that were used more to justify their sins than to make atonement for them. In Jeremiah 7, God had already said they were sacrificing to other gods (cakes to the Queen of heaven in 7:18). In other words, they were treating them as a means of pacifying the gods. They were doing the same thing to God Himself. They were doing what they wanted and using the sacrifices to cover themselves rather than trying to obey God and honoring Him in the sacrifices. A sacrificial system is one where someone automatically sacrifices because the sacrifice itself gains the favor of the god to whom it is offered. God does not desire sacrifices :
Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise
Psalm 51:14-17
And remember who was justified between Cain and Abel? Abel offered an animal sacrifice as offering to God. Cain offered a portion of the harvest he sowed. But what was the difference? Faith. Abel offered a better sacrifice by faith (Hebrews 11:4)
This does not mean God did not set forth the priesthood - and call them to offer sacrifices to God. They were still used, but the system was not what made man right before God. It was not a substitute for seeking to obey God. Rather, it was a way to show the people that sacrifices could not take away sin - but pointed to Christ who would be the ultimate sacrifice and take away sin.
Spoiler
As that passage in Hebrews says, sacrifices were clearly tied in with the Law.
Again, if what you say is true, then you are claiming that God instituted the Levitical priesthood to make a living by something that God condemns!
Because the temple was making money off of the people by requiring sanctioned sacrifices. It was turned into a profit-making venture rather than enabling people to sacrifice as easily as possible. The issue was the money (moneychanger's tables) not the sacrifices.
He condemned murder and the shedding of innocent blood. He wasn't condemning sacrifices in general. The problem with their sacrifices is that they themselves were sinful and wicked and did nothing to seek to turn from sin. The sacrifices were being used as a substitute for obedience and repentance. That's why God hated their "solemn assemblies"
Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment
Isaiah 1:4-6
Sacrifice is NO substitute for obedience (see again what was said in Psalm 51:17. God wasn't looking for sacrifices, He was looking for obedience and faith. But that didn't mean He didn't require sacrifices for certain things. The heart of the one sacrificing was far more important, though :
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Jeremiah 17:9-10
Repent. Yes. But that doesn't invalidate the sacrifices that God laid out for Israel when they were in the wilderness. They pointed to Christ.
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In regard to sacrifice there has to be a way to accept all scripture and not just some of it. Remember that.
God tested him, but did not require the death of his son.
Human sacrifice is not accepted by God.