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  • Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
    John 20:28 KJV
    (28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

    John 20:31
    31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


    I believe Jesus is the Messiah (the Christ).
    I believe Jesus is the Son of God.

    Why do you think there is any problem with that?
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

    Comment


    • Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
      Individuality and separation of Jesus from the Father is the only way to understand the things Jesus said about Himself and the Father.
      Jesus often did speak in a sense as if there was distinction, but this is understandable in the sense that he is emphasizing a specific role or roles. And there are some statements which defy individuality and separation.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
        John 20:31
        31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


        I believe Jesus is the Messiah (the Christ).
        I believe Jesus is the Son of God.

        Why do you think there is any problem with that?
        Saying that you believe that Jesus is the Son of God doesn't have the same meaning if you don't recognize the Son of God. You will be left without understanding who God really is, what he is really like, the reality of his person. And besides this, you will be left in the position of having to continually argue that passage in the Bible shouldn't be there, or were mistranslated, or that certain passages were commentary edits rather than original scripture.

        Isaiah 9:6 KJV
        (6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

        Surely that wasn't, "He shall be wrongly and mistakenly called.... the mighty God, the everlasting Father?"

        Zechariah 12:9-10 KJV
        (9) And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
        (10) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

        John 19:36-37 KJV
        (36) For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
        (37) And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

        Who was speaking in Zechariah? Wasn't that "Thus saith the LORD?"

        There are so many ways this is woven into the scripture, even from Moses. If it is written, "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings to search out a matter..." (Proverbs 25:2) then how much more is it the Glory of God when he reveals that which he has previously concealed?

        Revelation 1:7-8 KJV
        (7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
        (8) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

        Revelation 22:13-16 KJV
        (13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
        (14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
        (15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
        (16) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

        He did tell us, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father." We're not going to find a different person on the throne of God. God may have concealed his identity for a time, but when he clearly reveals that which is hidden we are meant to understand and believe.

        Comment


        • Who sent his angel to testify?

          Revelation 22:6 KJV
          (6) And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

          Revelation 22:16 KJV
          (16) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

          Who will be their God and dwell among men? And don't we have a name for God manifest in the flesh? Also called the Son of God? Whom we also called Jesus?

          Revelation 21:3-7 KJV
          (3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
          (4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
          (5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
          (6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
          (7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

          John 7:37 KJV
          (37) In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

          Who gives of the waters of life? Jesus said he gave the waters of life, and in Revelation it's God. Yet it also says that God shall dwell among men... and he shall be their God. A thought here... if Jesus was not God, why would there be so much blending here, as if we were seeing a holographic image of Clark Kent flicker in and out on top of Superman?

          Even Clark referred to Superman in the third person. Would you be willing to consider a similar perspective, that perhaps Jesus may have intentionally downplayed who he was before the crucifixion?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
            Saying that you believe that Jesus is the Son of God doesn't have the same meaning if you don't recognize the Son of God.
            Did you mean to say "you don't recognize the Son is God" instead of saying "you don't recognize the Son of God"?
            Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
            You will be left without understanding who God really is, what he is really like, the reality of his person.
            Why do you think it is necessary to have an understanding of God that comes from outside what is plainly stated in the Bible?

            Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
            And besides this, you will be left in the position of having to continually argue that passage in the Bible shouldn't be there, or were mistranslated, or that certain passages were commentary edits rather than original scripture.
            No, I have to put up with people that try to tell me that their interpretation of certain passages in the Bible are to be believed over what the rest of scripture says.

            Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
            Isaiah 9:6 KJV
            (6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

            Surely that wasn't, "He shall be wrongly and mistakenly called.... the mighty God, the everlasting Father?"

            Zechariah 12:9-10 KJV
            (9) And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
            (10) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

            John 19:36-37 KJV
            (36) For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
            (37) And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

            Who was speaking in Zechariah? Wasn't that "Thus saith the LORD?"

            There are so many ways this is woven into the scripture, even from Moses. If it is written, "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings to search out a matter..." (Proverbs 25:2) then how much more is it the Glory of God when he reveals that which he has previously concealed?

            Revelation 1:7-8 KJV
            (7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
            (8) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

            Revelation 22:13-16 KJV
            (13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
            (14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
            (15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
            (16) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

            He did tell us, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father." We're not going to find a different person on the throne of God.
            In this thread you have managed to post nearly every verse that is used to try to prove that Jesus is God the Father.
            Since there are 23,145 verses in the Bible, I still have over 23,000 verses that can't be used as proof texts for that claim.

            I see no reason to post all of them, so I will post a couple that appear to contradict the point you are trying to make.

            Please try to read this passage as if you did not believe that Jesus is God the Father.

            1 Corinthians 15:22-27
            22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
            23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
            24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
            25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
            26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
            27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.



            Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
            God may have concealed his identity for a time, but when he clearly reveals that which is hidden we are meant to understand and believe.
            I guess we will have to wait for the return of Jesus before God will clearly reveal whether the Son is the Father as two gods in one.

            The most important thing to realize is that the Bible never tells us to believe that Jesus is the Father, nor does the Bible tell us to believe that God is two (or even three) gods in one god.

            What specifically does the Bible tell us we must believe?

            1 John 3:23
            23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.


            If you do not believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, what do you believe?
            Learn to read what is written.

            _____
            The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
            ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
              A thought here... if Jesus was not God, why would there be so much blending here, as if we were seeing a holographic image of Clark Kent flicker in and out on top of Superman?

              Even Clark referred to Superman in the third person. Would you be willing to consider a similar perspective, that perhaps Jesus may have intentionally downplayed who he was before the crucifixion?
              If Jesus was downplaying who He was before the crucifixion, He did it while praying to God:

              Luke 22:39-44
              39 And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him.
              40 And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation.
              41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
              42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
              43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
              44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.


              We know that Jesus was not lying to God in the prayer, since God sent an angel to strengthen Jesus.
              Learn to read what is written.

              _____
              The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
              ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

              Comment


              • Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                Did you mean to say "you don't recognize the Son is God" instead of saying "you don't recognize the Son of God"?
                I could say either to the same effect. To recognize the Son of God is to recognize that the Son is God.

                Why do you think it is necessary to have an understanding of God that comes from outside what is plainly stated in the Bible?
                Genuine, your response does not sound genuine. Each and every argument that I have given has been from what is plainly stated in the Bible, many of which you have declined response.

                In this thread you have managed to post nearly every verse that is used to try to prove that Jesus is God the Father.
                Since there are 23,145 verses in the Bible, I still have over 23,000 verses that can't be used as proof texts for that claim.
                I am familiar with more arguments from scripture that I haven't brought forth yet. You still haven't answered existing arguments straight from the Old Testament.

                Regardless, what type of logic is "23000 verses exist but you've only shown me 145?" How many passages show the earth is round? Only a couple, but shall we discard that too based on that type of logic? You're starting do dive deep into the realm of spurious reasoning here. Come back please.

                I see no reason to post all of them, so I will post a couple that appear to contradict the point you are trying to make.

                Please try to read this passage as if you did not believe that Jesus is God the Father.

                1 Corinthians 15:22-27
                22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
                23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
                24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
                25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
                26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
                27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
                So tell me, what is the alleged problem that you perceive? Shall I take a guess that you are confusing the presence of different titles and roles as constituting different beings? We have a God that is big enough to be both judge and mediator... and the same time. "Father" and "Son" and "Christ" are titles and means of reference. The assumption of different roles is not a legitimate challenge; it is within the power of a king to impersonate the role of a subject. It's age old story oft repeated, and where do you think it originated?

                Given that taking on multiple roles is not a problem for God, it remains your problem that scripture clearly does identify the Son of God as none other than the LORD, in the very passages that you are refusing to address. It wouldn't matter if there were 1000000 passages that were silent, or 10000 passages where God appears from differing angles and titles, when there exists clear passages (5, 10, let alone the 100+ to which you alluded) that solidly identify Christ as the LORD I cannot imagine you you can rationalize that away in clear conscience.

                I guess we will have to wait for the return of Jesus before God will clearly reveal whether the Son is the Father as two gods in one.
                That, above, is an example of a backhanded straw man argument. I haven't seen anyone suggest that here.

                The most important thing to realize is that the Bible never tells us to believe that Jesus is the Father, nor does the Bible tell us to believe that God is two (or even three) gods in one god.
                Isaiah actually did tell us in black and white that the identity of the Christ child was God the everlasting Father. It's just that in this instance you have chosen not to believe what we have been told.

                What specifically does the Bible tell us we must believe?

                1 John 3:23
                23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

                If you do not believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, what do you believe?
                If you believe on his name, you should also believe his words. If you believe his words, then you should recognize that when he reveals himself as "the Almighty" and invokes the titles that also bear the weight of "besides which there is no God" that this is what he has revealed for a reason.

                When you stand before God's throne where Jesus sits as he judges the nations, are you going to be looking left and right or up and down searching for someone else?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                  If Jesus was downplaying who He was before the crucifixion, He did it while praying to God:

                  Luke 22:39-44
                  39 And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him.
                  40 And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation.
                  41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
                  42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
                  43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
                  44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
                  [/BOX]
                  We know that Jesus was not lying to God in the prayer, since God sent an angel to strengthen Jesus.

                  That's the "Why would Jesus Pray" question, which is also answered within the the same framework that acknowledges Jesus as the Son as God. When you are willing to acknowledge "they shall look upon me whom they have pierced" and "before Abraham was, I AM" and "I am the first and the last" and "let all the angels of God worship him" and "In the beginning was the Word... and all things were made by him" without inserting straw man arguments for the purpose of ridicule, I can explain that question of prayer.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
                    So tell me, what is the alleged problem that you perceive? Shall I take a guess that you are confusing the presence of different titles and roles as constituting different beings? We have a God that is big enough to be both judge and mediator... and the same time. "Father" and "Son" and "Christ" are titles and means of reference.
                    You seem to be confusing verses speaking about different beings by making the false assumption that they are speaking about different titles and roles.

                    Try reading these verses again (I highlighted the different beings):

                    1 Corinthians 15:22-27
                    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
                    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
                    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
                    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
                    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
                    27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

                    Learn to read what is written.

                    _____
                    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                      You seem to be confusing verses speaking about different beings by making the false assumption that they are speaking about different titles and roles.

                      Try reading these verses again (I highlighted the different beings):

                      1 Corinthians 15:22-27
                      22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
                      23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
                      24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
                      25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
                      26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
                      27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
                      Short answer also shown in yellow and green:
                      Spoiler

                      JESUS

                      If you start reading that passage with a preconception that there are different beings it will likely reinforce your determination. However it does also read in the sense that I have put forth, that it can speak in terms of titles and roles, yet still ultimately point to the same being. Please read through, I will try to be less confrontational and ask short questions along the way.

                      1) "Christ" is Greek for Messiah, and although this was prophesied it could potentially have been filled by others. Without New Testament revelation and hindsight it would be difficult to determine whether the Messiah would be fulfilled by God or a created man or angel. Do you agree?

                      2) God, even the Father, is a reference to the Creator of all things as He is as a Spirit in heaven above (John 4:24). Other than its first appearance in Isaiah 9:6 ("unto us a child is born") Jesus used this term when referring to God in the third person (grammatically). Aside that you may anticipate where I am going with this, can you also agree with these statements so far?

                      The passage is ambiguous as to the identity of Christ and God the Father. It does not say whether Jesus is the Christ or God, and it certainly does not name God the Father. The actual context and intent of the passage is how the Christ will raise the dead and rule.

                      1. It is no contradiction that God the Father put all things under the Christ, that his authority was from Heaven Above. Had Jesus said that his authority was from himself, it would indicate that he and God were of different authority (which would actually agree with your preconception.)

                      2. The statement that "all things are put under him" excludes "God the Father" likewise is no contradiction. The role of the Christ does not replace God but rather this is ordained by divine authority.

                      If you want to go to the issue of the identity of the Christ, there are passages (250 and more) that explicitly state that Jesus is the Christ. If you want to go to the issue of the identity of God in heaven above, there are also passages that address that question... but you haven't been wanting to address those passages because you have a block against that answer.

                      For example, we accept that God in heaven above is the Creator, and that there is one Creator. We are directly told in scripture that the Word created all things (John 1) and that the Son created all things that were made (Colossians 1). John tells us that the Word was God and that the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us and later describes him in a vision as having a vesture dipped in blood, called KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS. As touching the identity of the Son, Jesus is called the Son of God within the New Testament context in many places as well. This is one proof of many, and very easy to conclude from the scripture as it is written. There's nothing hidden or concealed to unravel here.

                      These places do directly speak to the identity of God and Christ and they are not ambiguous to the question. You have been setting these aside perhaps with the reasoning that "These cannot mean what they sound like" but that is precisely what we should not do.

                      I understand that your reasoning assumes that He who is God would not fulfill other roles besides that of our Father in Heaven. That's what I am calling out as a mistaken assumption... in a similar fashion as I would call out "man has an immortal soul" in addressing another issue. If your answers to defend "He does not fill other roles" are all based upon that same assumption, it would fall into the same trap of circular logic as the other question.

                      I have pointed out contradictions that occur when proceeding on your assumption but these have not been addressed. If you wish to put those aside without answer, you cannot fairly continue to use your premise as if it were a proof answer. You could pose similar questions to see if my framework holds up under similar scrutiny, but you cannot have it both ways at the same time. That wouldn't be sound logic or reasoning, it would only create an emotional chaos storm that would prevent eventual resolution.

                      Comment


                      • (working on an answer, please be patient)
                        Last edited by genuineoriginal; October 8th, 2018, 02:44 PM.
                        Learn to read what is written.

                        _____
                        The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                        ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                          (working on an answer, please be patient)
                          Thanks. I'm hoping we can bypass a lot of the back and forth that seems to be the inevitable entry into charged subjects like these and do the constructive focus thing.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
                            1) "Christ" is Greek for Messiah, and although this was prophesied it could potentially have been filled by others. Without New Testament revelation and hindsight it would be difficult to determine whether the Messiah would be fulfilled by God or a created man or angel. Do you agree?
                            No, the Old Testament prophecies show that the Messiah (Christ) has to be a descendant of David.

                            Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
                            2) God, even the Father, is a reference to the Creator of all things as He is as a Spirit in heaven above (John 4:24). Other than its first appearance in Isaiah 9:6 ("unto us a child is born") Jesus used this term when referring to God in the third person (grammatically). Aside that you may anticipate where I am going with this, can you also agree with these statements so far?
                            No.
                            God, even the Father is the Creator of all things.
                            The Son of God has several references in the Old Testament (such as Psalm 2) where He is shown as a separate being from God.

                            Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
                            The passage is ambiguous as to the identity of Christ and God the Father. It does not say whether Jesus is the Christ or God, and it certainly does not name God the Father. The actual context and intent of the passage is how the Christ will raise the dead and rule.

                            1. It is no contradiction that God the Father put all things under the Christ, that his authority was from Heaven Above. Had Jesus said that his authority was from himself, it would indicate that he and God were of different authority (which would actually agree with your preconception.)
                            Paul often speaks of ideas that come from multiple passages in the Old Testament.
                            To understand Paul, we have to look for the Old Testament passages that Paul refers to.
                            Here is one Old Testament passage that says that God will put all things under the rule of His begotten Son.

                            Psalm 2:6-9
                            6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
                            7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
                            8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
                            9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.



                            Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
                            2. The statement that "all things are put under him" excludes "God the Father" likewise is no contradiction. The role of the Christ does not replace God but rather this is ordained by divine authority.
                            It is a contradiction if God the Father is putting all things under himself, as you are reading the passage.
                            God is not suffering a multiple-personality disorder, nor is God talking in third person about different "roles" and "titles" as if they are different beings.

                            Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
                            If you want to go to the issue of the identity of the Christ, there are passages (250 and more) that explicitly state that Jesus is the Christ.
                            According to the Old Testament, the Christ (Messiah) is the descendant of David, and therefore is a man and not God.

                            Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
                            If you want to go to the issue of the identity of God in heaven above, there are also passages that address that question... but you haven't been wanting to address those passages because you have a block against that answer.
                            I don't have a block, I can see both sides of the argument.
                            You have a block because you can only see one side.

                            Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
                            For example, we accept that God in heaven above is the Creator, and that there is one Creator. We are directly told in scripture that the Word created all things (John 1) and that the Son created all things that were made (Colossians 1). John tells us that the Word was God and that the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us and later describes him in a vision as having a vesture dipped in blood, called KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS.
                            You are misreading John 1 and Colossians 1 because of your block.

                            Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
                            I understand that your reasoning assumes that He who is God would not fulfill other roles besides that of our Father in Heaven. That's what I am calling out as a mistaken assumption.
                            The mistaken assumption is thinking that God does not act through agents, but is doing everything Himself.
                            Learn to read what is written.

                            _____
                            The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                            ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
                              Shall I take a guess that you are confusing the presence of different titles and roles as constituting different beings? We have a God that is big enough to be both judge and mediator... and the same time. "Father" and "Son" and "Christ" are titles and means of reference. The assumption of different roles is not a legitimate challenge; it is within the power of a king to impersonate the role of a subject. It's age old story oft repeated, and where do you think it originated?

                              Given that taking on multiple roles is not a problem for God, it remains your problem that scripture clearly does identify the Son of God as none other than the LORD, in the very passages that you are refusing to address.
                              It sounds like you are promoting Modalistic Monarchianism, Sabellianism, or some other form of Modalism.

                              Modalistic Monarchianism
                              Modalistic Monarchians believe in the deity of Jesus and understand Jesus, the Son of God, to be a manifestation of the God of the Old Testament, Yahweh, in the flesh. When Jesus was on Earth, he referred to God as his Father since God caused his conception through the Holy Spirit. Since God is spirit, the Holy Spirit is used to describe God in action. In this way, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are considered titles pertaining to the one God, not descriptions of distinct individuals.


                              Sabellianism
                              According to modalism and Sabellianism, God is said to be only one person who reveals himself in different ways called modes, faces, aspects, roles or masks (Greek πρόσωπα prosopa ; Latin personae) of the One God, as perceived by the believer, rather than three co-eternal persons within the Godhead, or a "co-equal Trinity". Modalists note that the only number expressly and repeatedly ascribed to God in the Old Testament is One, do not accept interpreting this number as denoting union (i.e. Gen 2:24) when it is applied to God, and dispute the meaning or validity of related New Testament passages cited by Trinitarians.


                              My beliefs are classical (1st-3rd century) Subordinationism.

                              Subordinationism
                              Oxford dictionary of the Christian Church
                              Subordinationism, according to Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, "regards either the Son as subordinate to the Father or the Holy Spirit as subordinate to both. It is a characteristic tendency in much Christian teaching of the first three centuries, and is a marked feature of such otherwise orthodox Fathers as" Justin Martyr and Irenaeus. Reasons for this tendency include:
                              • "the stress on the absolute unity and transcendence of God the Father, which is common to all forms of theology using the existing categories of Greek thought
                              • "the fear of compromising monotheism
                              • "the implications of one strand of biblical teaching" represented by John 14:28”

                              By the 4th century, subordinationism was "regarded as clearly heretical in its denial of the co-equality of the Three Persons of the Trinity. The issue was most explicitly dealt with in the conflict with Arius and his followers, who held that the Son was God not by nature but by grace and was created by the Father, though in a creation outside time." Subordination of the Holy Spirit became more prominent in the 4th century Pneumatomachi. The second ecumenical council, Constantinople I, condemned subordinationism in 381.

                              The Westminster Handbook to Patristic Theology
                              Subordinationism. The term is a common retrospective concept used to denote theologians of the early church who affirmed the divinity of the Son or Spirit of God, but conceived it somehow as a lesser form of divinity than that of the Father. It is a modern concept that is so vague that is that it does not illuminate much of the theology of the pre-Nicene teachers, where a subordinationist presupposition was widely and unreflectively shared.


                              I believe that Jesus was 100% divine and 0% human as the Son of God (not God Himself) before the incarnation, 100% human and 0% divine during the incarnation, and is currently a 100% divine human after the ascension.
                              Learn to read what is written.

                              _____
                              The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                              ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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                              • Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                                No, the Old Testament prophecies show that the Messiah (Christ) has to be a descendant of David.
                                Yes, that's right, it does. say that the Messiah shall descend from David. Why then does David call him Lord and Paul call him God?

                                Matthew 22:41-46 KJV
                                (41) While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
                                (42) Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
                                (43) He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
                                (44) The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
                                (45) If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
                                (46) And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

                                Mark 12:35-37 KJV
                                (35) And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?
                                (36) For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
                                (37) David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

                                Luke 20:41-44 KJV
                                (41) And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son?
                                (42) And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
                                (43) Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
                                (44) David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?

                                Hebrews 1:1-14 KJV
                                (1) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
                                (2) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
                                (3) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
                                (4) Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
                                (5) For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
                                (6) And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
                                (7) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
                                (8) But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
                                (9) Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
                                (10) And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
                                (11) They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
                                (12) And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
                                (13) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
                                (14) Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

                                He inherits a name better than the angels, the angels of God worship him. The same angels that say "See that thou do it not, worship God." (Revelation 19:10, 22:9) And to the Son he saith, thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever.

                                I didn't mean to go in that direction yet (my mind slipped when I wrote that before) but it's interesting that even that question brings us back in that same direction. It's integrated practically everywhere.

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