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JESUS IS NOT YHWH

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  • Originally posted by drbrumley View Post
    Likewise BUT
    I explained it why in the other thread.

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    • Originally posted by meshak View Post
      I explained it why in the other thread.
      You didn't do a very good job then.
      The state — whatever its particular forms — always expresses itself as a collective form of property ownership. All political systems are socialistic, in that they are premised upon the subservience of individual interests to collective authority. Communism, fascism, lesser forms of state socialism, and welfarism, are all premised upon the state’s usurpation of privately-owned property. Whether one chooses to be aligned with the political "Left," "Right," or "Middle," comes down to nothing more than a preference for a particular franchise of state socialism.

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      • Engrams of truth........

        Originally posted by KingdomRose View Post

        Well said, though I have said before that for this discussion I had hoped that people would stick to a discussion of what the Bible says. So many here drift away from what it actually says and add a bunch of stuff that somebody thought up in their head, like the Trinity, hell-fire and the immortal soul. I had hoped to home in on some of these prevarications and have a meaningful, respectful, in-depth discussion, but alas, such a thing is not to be had on these threads.
        Intellectual honesty is always essential, and a hunger for more spiritual reality, guidance of the Spirit, progressive revelation, learning, etc. Only those who ask, seek and knock...are responded to by God, and all the forces, resources and powers of the cosmos act and re-act according to those thoughts, words and actions by divine intention. We make our own 'heaven' or 'hell' in every moment by our choice and habit of mind.

        As we know, subjects such as 'the Trinity, 'hellfire' and 'immortal soul' can be claimed as 'unbiblical' just as much as 'biblical' depending on who or what camp is interpreting the text and what doctrinal proclivities and philosophical tendencies prevail.


        To briefly comment on your view of blood atonement: I wouldn't have picked it as a solution to anything myself, but according to the Bible, "there can be no forgiveness without the spilling of blood," or words to that effect.

        "Yes, nearly all things are cleansed with blood according to the Law, and unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place." (Hebrews 9:22)

        So, according to the Bible Christ's blood really does bring about forgiveness for us, providing that we accept what he did and THEN live according to his teaching and example. I agree with you that we must be genuinely repentant, and do the necessary work to make ourselves over (Romans 12:2). This we have to do, no question about it, after accepting Christ's sacrifice in our behalf. We have to CONTINUE on the road to life. (Colossians 1:23) We do reap what we sow, and that includes anyone who says he's "saved." No one is completely saved until the end of the road---either of our lives or of the system of things. (Matt.24:13) So I agree with what you said about self-responsibility. Not many people align themselves with that idea.
        Different 'kinds' of 'atonement' are afforded or allowed within a 'biblical context', yet the shedding of blood did NOT provide an atonement for all sins, as other forms of 'atonement' are efficacious in the scriptures, besides 'blood' being 'figurative' and symbolical. If one can prove there is any magical quality or power in the blood of any animal, human being or demigod, then bring forth the evidence. The prophetic call and way of transformation, salvation, progress and ascension has always been 'repentance' (change, conversion, adaptation of mind effecting new ways of living and being).

        In all my commentaries on supporting 'atonement without blood', I do not discount the esoteric meaning, value and symbology of 'blood', but question the 'ethic', 'law', 'logic' and 'principle' employed behind the concept and its efficacy to bring about any real change. On so many other levels, its still a matter of personal 'faith' in the symbols and substances assumed, however these are 'interpreted' in any given context.

        The true sacrifices are a broken heart and a contrite spirit, the offering of thanks and praise from heart and lips, inspiring true worship in spirit and truth, which is what the Father is attending, all other 'forms' and 'rituals' of worship, only being secondary, adjunctive or unnecessary.

        We are the tabernacles of God, and those movements and gestures of the soul within, are the priests and their ministerial functions done in the inner sanctuary. At the end of the day, ONLY the 'pure in heart' see 'God' and it matters not how much blood is shed for some provisional purpose, unless its application or power truly is redemptive somehow. But this is all translated 'subjectively', interpreted figuratively. Faith also without any action, is not living or efficacious to save anyone or anything, while only those who actually DO THE WILL OF GOD, are fulfilling their purpose of life, and thru love and faith prove to be the sons of God, BY their good works (faith inspired actions), which glorify God. Therefore as James contends, it is true....one's faith if authentic and living, will produce after its kind, and fulfill itself THRU the completed works which prove their vitality. Lip service alone, avails nothing.


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        • Sticking to the basics......

          Originally posted by drbrumley View Post

          Hey friend. I do believe this from your own mouth, "His Father is Jesus' God and Jesus' God is our God."

          I can take scripture at face value, unlike you. You haven't a clue about this verse.
          Beyond apparent confusion, as we consider the perfect oneness, unity and indivisible attributes of the divine nature, it matters not how many faces, personalities, forms we ascribe to Deity, since Deity is always ONE anyways. God has many different messengers, agents, vessels, persons he uses in his service, which in some ways are 'God' and in other ways are not 'God' but his representatives. Again,....essence, substance and form....cut, slice and dice as you please

          The Arian Controversy will never die or be resolved really, and in some ways it matters not, since God is looking for vessels who are pure in heart, who seek after him to love, serve and DO HIS WILL. That is key, no matter what religious garb you wear, or what cult or tradition you adhere.

          I'm sure many of the heavenly host are so 'tired' of debate over the Trinity, straining at gnats and swallowing camels, that many are done with it. The citizens of the kingdom are busy being the body of the Christ, operating as members thereof, and as branches of that vine, bear his fruits. I think the parable of the Vine and branches is most pertinent here, and I dont see much 'fruit' from centuries of doctrinal debate within Christendom beyond a final conclusion of certain creedal formulas and dogma being 'crystallized', amid the deviltry of other harms such an institition has done to impede the progress of humanity. This is not to discount the positive things given to humanity thru the movement and tradition (inner and outer), but organized religion does have its own trappings.


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          • Originally posted by KingdomRose View Post
            "Jesus saith unto her [Mary]...I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17, KJV)


            Beautiful passage, and both Unitarians and Trinitarians basically interpret it the same way, as the human nature and will of Jesus is subordinate to and serving the divine nature and will of the invisible Father. All the progeny and creation of 'God' are subordinate to Him, by way of nature and order.


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            • Originally posted by freelight View Post
              Intellectual honesty is always essential, and a hunger for more spiritual reality, guidance of the Spirit, progressive revelation, learning, etc. Only those who ask, seek and knock...are responded to by God, and all the forces, resources and powers of the cosmos act and re-act according to those thoughts, words and actions by divine intention. We make our own 'heaven' or 'hell' in every moment by our choice and habit of mind.

              As we know, subjects such as 'the Trinity, 'hellfire' and 'immortal soul' can be claimed as 'unbiblical' just as much as 'biblical' depending on who or what camp is interpreting the text and what doctrinal proclivities and philosophical tendencies prevail.




              Different 'kinds' of 'atonement' are afforded or allowed within a 'biblical context', yet the shedding of blood did NOT provide an atonement for all sins, as other forms of 'atonement' are efficacious in the scriptures, besides 'blood' being 'figurative' and symbolical. If one can prove there is any magical quality or power in the blood of any animal, human being or demigod, then bring forth the evidence. The prophetic call and way of transformation, salvation, progress and ascension has always been 'repentance' (change, conversion, adaptation of mind effecting new ways of living and being).

              In all my commentaries on supporting 'atonement without blood', I do not discount the esoteric meaning, value and symbology of 'blood', but question the 'ethic', 'law', 'logic' and 'principle' employed behind the concept and its efficacy to bring about any real change. On so many other levels, its still a matter of personal 'faith' in the symbols and substances assumed, however these are 'interpreted' in any given context.

              The true sacrifices are a broken heart and a contrite spirit, the offering of thanks and praise from heart and lips, inspiring true worship in spirit and truth, which is what the Father is attending, all other 'forms' and 'rituals' of worship, only being secondary, adjunctive or unnecessary.

              We are the tabernacles of God, and those movements and gestures of the soul within, are the priests and their ministerial functions done in the inner sanctuary. At the end of the day, ONLY the 'pure in heart' see 'God' and it matters not how much blood is shed for some provisional purpose, unless its application or power truly is redemptive somehow. But this is all translated 'subjectively', interpreted figuratively. Faith also without any action, is not living or efficacious to save anyone or anything, while only those who actually DO THE WILL OF GOD, are fulfilling their purpose of life, and thru love and faith prove to be the sons of God, BY their good works (faith inspired actions), which glorify God. Therefore as James contends, it is true....one's faith if authentic and living, will produce after its kind, and fulfill itself THRU the completed works which prove their vitality. Lip service alone, avails nothing.
              AGREED. There is no magical quality in the blood of Jesus, just the decree from God that we must accept the shedding of Jesus' blood to the point of death as a redemptive act, to be able to extricate ourselves from the bondage to death that our father Adam flung us into. Jehovah says that the scales of justice must balance....the life of a righteous, perfect man for the life of the other perfect man who was righteous until he chose to rebel against God.

              "In conclusion, just as through one transgression condemnation came upon all, so through one righteous act acquittal and life came to all." (Romans 5:18, NAB)

              "It is even so written: 'The first man Adam became a living soul.' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (I Corinthians 15:45) Here it is kind of easy to see the balance between the two "Adams," and how the loving act of the one counter-acted the selfish act of the other.

              This act by Christ brings about real change only if humans accept it. And we accept it basically just because God says we must. Those of us who accept it then go on to work at bringing our lives into harmony with Christ's teachings. Just believing isn't enough. (James 2:14-26) We must follow his example in all things (I Peter 2:21). Your word is absolutely appropriate----APPLICATION. It must be done with Christ's teachings.

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