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Jesus Christ, the Firstborn of Creation, Who Was First To Be Birthed into Existence

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  • #16
    I am in strong disagreement with the article. While the theory put forth appears to work, it actually fails. Scripture, as many responses have pointed out, directly contradicts the conclusion and theory put forth by the article.

    Also, from a Trinitarian standpoint (which I know not all ascribe to), it is also impossible. Christ, being the Son of God, and One With God, cannot be created, logically. God is eternal. So, His Son, Alpha and Omega, likewise, must be eternal.

    From a simply Christian standpoint, Christ could not have been created, because He was "the Word in flesh." And "In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God. And the Word was God." (Trinity proof again, apologies Non-Trinitarians, this was only meant to illustrate a "begotten not made" view). The Word was never created, because it was God. If Christ is the Word in flesh, His "flesh" would have been technically created (via Mary), but Christ as a whole could not have been created. For He is fully God and fully man. If one is fully God, then it is impossible to have been created since one cannot create themselves.


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    • #17
      Originally posted by cgaviria View Post


      Originally posted by Tambora View Post
      No it does not.


      The Son is called 'firstborn' because it can mean 'preeminence'.
      Just as Israel [Ex 4:22] and Ephraim [Jer 31:9], and David [Ps 89:27] were called 'firstborn'.
      None of those 3 were the 1st in sequence of birth, so it is obvious that scripture does NOT show us that 'firstborn' has to always carry the connotation of being 'first' in sequence as in 1, 2, 3.
      That's because you do not understand who Israel is first among, who Ephraim is first among, or who the Psalm is referring to as first among. You picked out these verses at random to try to disprove that firstborn means born first out of a certain group. God does not speak arbitrarily nor unwisely, so if he speaks of someone being a firstborn, then rest assured they are a firstborn among a group that you have not yet identified.
      No I did not pick those verses at random.
      I picked them specifically to show you and everyone that "firstborn" in scripture does NOT have to mean 1st in sequence, the 1st born of a family or group.
      The very fact that GOD calls David, Ephraim, and Israel "firstborn" should have been your first clue because there can only be one 1st born in sequence.

      Not to mention that saying the Son was created goes against scripture that says the Son was both with GOD and was GOD.
      And it also goes against scripture that says the Son was the creator of all things.
      One cannot create all things and be the first thing created.

      We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
      They already know monsters exist.
      We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Tambora View Post
        No I did not pick those verses at random.
        I picked them specifically to show you and everyone that "firstborn" in scripture does NOT have to mean 1st in sequence, the 1st born of a family or group.
        The very fact that GOD calls David, Ephraim, and Israel "firstborn" should have been your first clue because there can only be one 1st born in sequence.

        Not to mention that saying the Son was created goes against scripture that says the Son was both with GOD and was GOD.
        And it also goes against scripture that says the Son was the creator of all things.
        One cannot create all things and be the first thing created.
        But these three are not in the same sequence, for neither of these three are siblings, and by you just stating that you make yourself obvious that you don't actually know what you're talking about, what do people of the world call it? "talking out of your butt?" As such, these scriptures do not disprove that "Jesus Christ is the firstborn of creation", meaning the first to be born of the one sequence of all created beings.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by cgaviria View Post
          But these three are not in the same sequence, for neither of these three are siblings, and by you just stating that you make yourself obvious that you don't actually know what you're talking about, what do people of the world call it? "talking out of your butt?" As such, these scriptures do not disprove that "Jesus Christ is the firstborn of creation", meaning the first to be born of the one sequence of all created beings.
          No doofus, the Son cannot be created if He is the one that created all things created.

          Ephesians 3:9 KJV
          (9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


          Colossians 1:16-17 KJV
          (16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
          (17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.





          Revelation 4:11 KJV
          (11) Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


          Revelation 10:6 KJV
          (6) And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:


          Exodus 20:11 KJV
          (11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


          John 1:1-3 KJV
          (1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
          (2) The same was in the beginning with God.
          (3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

          We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
          They already know monsters exist.
          We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by cgaviria
            As such, these scriptures do not disprove that "Jesus Christ is the firstborn of creation", meaning the first to be born of the one sequence of all created beings.
            We see in scripture that "firstborn" is sometimes used as a title. You have examples where it was used on people who were not firstborn biologically in a family.

            Also... as [MENTION=3698]Tambora[/MENTION] pointed out, Jesus could not have created Himself... For in Jesus all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
            Without Genesis, absolutely nothing makes sense in all of Scripture.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Tambora View Post
              No doofus, the Son cannot be created if He is the one that created all things created.

              Ephesians 3:9 KJV
              (9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


              Colossians 1:16-17 KJV
              (16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
              (17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.





              Revelation 4:11 KJV
              (11) Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


              Revelation 10:6 KJV
              (6) And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:


              Exodus 20:11 KJV
              (11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


              John 1:1-3 KJV
              (1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
              (2) The same was in the beginning with God.
              (3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
              He didn't create "all things", he created "all", meaning all living beings. "Things" is not part of the original text for the word "panta", which means "all", it was added by translators who think as you do. The correct rendering of those scriptures should be:

              because by him were created – all in the heavens and upon the earth; the visible, and the invisible; whether thrones, or lordships, or rulers, or authorities – all by him and for him were created. (Colossians 1:16 [INTERLINEARIZED])*

              Interlinear: http://biblehub.com/interlinear/colossians/1-16.htm

              Meaning all living beings in the heavens and on earth.

              All through him emerged, and without him emerged not even one that has emerged. (John 1:3 [INTERLINEARIZED])

              Interlinear: http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1-3.htm

              Also meaning all living beings in the heavens and on earth.

              And if you look at the Genesis account, all life came through the commands Jesus Christ made in the beginning.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by cgaviria View Post
                He didn't create "all things",
                Scripture says all things created (ie. all of creation) was created by Him.

                We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
                They already know monsters exist.
                We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Tambora View Post
                  Scripture says all things created (ie. all of creation) was created by Him.
                  No it does not, and I just gave you the interlinear links for you to see for yourself. And not only that, in the Genesis account you can also see for yourself that the earth already existed before Jesus Christ began speaking. That is because he did not create "all things". It was the Father who first brought the earth into existence by his power, and then through Jesus Christ he created the world in wisdom. There is a distinction between the "earth" and the "world".

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by cgaviria View Post
                    No it does not,
                    Yes it does.

                    We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
                    They already know monsters exist.
                    We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by cgavira
                      in the Genesis account you can also see for yourself that the earth already existed before Jesus Christ began speaking.
                      Scripture tells us that in six days God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them.*
                      Without Genesis, absolutely nothing makes sense in all of Scripture.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by cgaviria View Post
                        This study explains shows, contrary to popular teaching, the scriptures that teach that Jesus Christ was created. This study also explains, that in spite of him being created, why he is still called God, why he existed in the beginning, and how he was able to create the world. The study can be found here, http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2016/10/05...nto-existence/ . Let us commence a discussion on this study in this thread.
                        I agree that Jesus was the first creation by God, but I do not agree that he should still be referred to as "God." How could "God" be created? The only reason that people ignore scriptures (like Colossians 1:15 and Revelation 3:14) that show that Jesus was the first to be brought into existence, is because they have to prop up their belief in the Trinity at any cost.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Tambora View Post
                          No it does not.


                          The Son is called 'firstborn' because it can mean 'preeminence'.
                          Just as Israel [Ex 4:22] and Ephraim [Jer 31:9], and David [Ps 89:27] were called 'firstborn'.
                          None of those 3 were the 1st in sequence of birth, so it is obvious that scripture does NOT show us that 'firstborn' has to always carry the connotation of being 'first' in sequence as in 1, 2, 3.
                          You are stretching sensibility to the breaking point. "First-born" does NOT merely mean "preeminence."

                          It is exactly what it says. To be "born" means to "come into existence," to BEGIN LIFE. COLOSSIANS 1:15 states it very clearly. You are remiss to try and twist that scripture around to mean something it doesn't say.

                          Israel, Ephraim and David were not referred to as "first-born OF CREATION." If they had been referred to as that, we would have to understand that they were being called the first to be created. Thankfully we have no such problem. It is only Jesus who is called the first-born of CREATION.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by KingdomRose View Post
                            You are stretching sensibility to the breaking point. "First-born" does NOT merely mean "preeminence."

                            It is exactly what it says. To be "born" means to "come into existence," to BEGIN LIFE. COLOSSIANS 1:15 states it very clearly. You are remiss to try and twist that scripture around to mean something it doesn't say.
                            You're mistaken. Get into the proper theology and you will have understanding.
                            He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

                            Jim Elliot

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by cgaviria View Post
                              No it does not, and I just gave you the interlinear links for you to see for yourself. And not only that, in the Genesis account you can also see for yourself that the earth already existed before Jesus Christ began speaking. That is because he did not create "all things". It was the Father who first brought the earth into existence by his power, and then through Jesus Christ he created the world in wisdom. There is a distinction between the "earth" and the "world".
                              The Bible says all things were created by and for Him;

                              Colossians 1:16 King James Version (KJV)

                              16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

                              Don't need an interlinear for that eh.
                              He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

                              Jim Elliot

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                                The Bible says all things were created by and for Him;

                                Colossians 1:16 King James Version (KJV)

                                16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

                                Don't need an interlinear for that eh.
                                But in Genesis we read that this was not so, for Jesus did not speak the earth into existence, for the Father himself created the earth, and then Jesus Christ spoke to fill the earth, with exactly what is described in Colossians. And from looking at the interlinear, "things" is added by translators, as such, "all" means all life. Whoever wants disbelieve this has no understanding of what happened in the beginning.


                                Sent from my iPhone using TOL

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