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  • #16
    Originally posted by JAGG View Post

    Lon,

    Thank you for taking the time to make those comments.

    Can we agree on my post up-thread where I mentioned Joshua 24:15 and John 7:17 ?

    My view is that the "Human Ability To Choose" and the Sovereign Will Of God are BOTH
    assumed to be true throughout the Holy Bible and neither one contradicts the other.

    I deliberately chose "Human Ability To Choose" and avoided the "problem" words "Free Will."

    If we do not have the "Human Ability To Choose" then we have some major Big Time Serious
    interpretative problems spread out from Genesis to Revelation.

    Here is one right here , , ,

    John 3:16 presents a choice.
    {1} believe and get Eternal Life
    {2} refuse to believe and perish

    I mean if we have to have a major in-depth theological discussion before we can agree that
    John 3:16 asks humans to choose -- then we have some very serious Evangelistic problems.

    What about the Billy Graham Crusades? Did Billy "miss the boat" when he gave the "altar call"
    and asked people to "make a decision" to accept Christ as their Savior? Or should Billy have
    held in-depth theological classes instead of Evangelistic Crusades? In-depth theological
    classes to discuss the Calvinistic vs. Armenian position on Human "Free Will" and the
    Sovereignty Of God ?

    Just imagine how that would have "gone down" among those who came to hear Billy preach
    the gospel.

    , , lol , , ,

    God Bless Us All.

    JAGG


    ``[/SIZE]

    John 3:16 "For God so loved the world (of people) that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life."

    Does this sentence alone 'require' a decision?

    It is a statement of fact, not a query or implore. There is no "Be born again!" command.

    I want to be very careful not to import 'into' a text. I don't want to add to God's words, but explain what is clearly there as well as call into question what I clearly don't see there.

    The whole of John 3 is an explanation of 'you must be born again' to Nicodemus. Nicodemus asked how it was possible/what it meant and John 3:16 is the answer to the question. The Lord Jesus Christ doesn't give a command "do this" but a condition to be met "be born again." We cannot 'born again' ourselves and that much, I believe, is clear of this passage where nowhere is Nicodemus asked to do anything. He is rather told a condition that must be met.

    John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

    "That" is the condition to be met. Nicodemus, in John 3:1-3 doesn't ask a question, like 'what must I do to be saved?' Rather Nicodemus says "We know you are a teacher from God."
    Imo, the most difficult verse in John 3 is verse 3. It sets up the message 'from God.' "You must be born again" is the message, and Jesus is the answer to accomplish the needed condition to be met.

    Mid Acts may weigh in here on a difference: They don't see 'born again' as the gospel, but it is at least similar in that Jesus had to die and rise again for man to be in Christ as a new creation.



    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    ? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Lon View Post
      John 3:16 "For God so loved the world (of people) that He gave His
      Only Begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him, should not perish
      but have everlasting life."

      Does this sentence alone 'require' a decision?

      It is a statement of fact, not a query or implore. There is no
      "Be born again!" command.

      I want to be very careful not to import 'into' a text. I don't want to
      add to God's words, but explain what is clearly there as well as call
      into question what I clearly don't see there.

      The whole of John 3 is an explanation of 'you must be born again'
      to Nicodemus. Nicodemus asked how it was possible/what it
      meant and John 3:16 is the answer to the question. The Lord
      Jesus Christ doesn't give a command "do this" but a condition
      to be met "be born again." We cannot 'born again' ourselves and
      that much, I believe, is clear of this passage where nowhere is
      Nicodemus asked to do anything. He is rather told a condition
      that must be met.

      John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
      even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
      15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have
      eternal life.

      "That" is the condition to be met. Nicodemus, in John 3:1-3
      doesn't ask a question, like 'what must I do to be saved?'
      Rather Nicodemus says "We know you are a teacher from God."
      Imo, the most difficult verse in John 3 is verse 3. It sets up the
      message 'from God.' "You must be born again" is the message,
      and Jesus is the answer to accomplish the needed condition to
      be met.


      Mid Acts may weigh in here on a difference:They don't see 'born
      again' as the gospel, but it is at least similar in that Jesus had to
      die and rise again for man to be in Christ as a new creation.

      ?
      "Mid Acts" , , ,They" __Lon

      Mid way the book of Acts?
      ?


      Lon,
      Thank you for reading my OP and for reading my follow-up posts.
      I appreciate you doing that.

      I think, on these issues, we live in different worlds. Lets see if we do?

      Based on our general knowledge of the Bible, some questions:
      {There will be some over-lapping to make the points.}

      Does God want all men to come to repentance? Yes.
      Is God willing that any men perish? No.
      Do all men have to be born again to keep from perishing? Yes.
      Do you have to be born again to be saved? Yes.
      Can men be saved without being born again? No.
      So does God want all men to be born again? Yes.
      Does God want all men to be saved? Yes.
      Can any man be saved without believing as per John 3:16? No.
      So does John 3:16 imply that men must make a decision? Yes.
      Was Nicodemus a man? Yes.
      Does God want all men to be saved? Yes.
      Could Nicodemus be saved without being born again? No.
      Did Jesus and God want Nicodemus to be saved? Yes.
      Did Jesus and God want Nicodemus to be born again? Yes
      In light of all that up there does John 3:16 call on men to choose? Yes.
      To choose what? Answer: To choose to believe in the Lord Jesus
      In light of all that up there would God desire all men to pray and ask for God's help to be born again? Yes.
      Is it reasonable to believe that Nicodemus, after talking to Jesus, wanted to be born again? Yes.
      Is it reasonable to believe that Jesus wanted Nicodemus to ask God or the Holy Spirit to help him become born again? Yes.

      ___________________


      Does the Bible teach that we ought to explain in-depth the Calvinistic concept vs. the Armenian concept
      of Salvation to potential converts in Christian Evangelistic Meetings -- prior to asking people to pray this
      prayer? No


      "Dear Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I ask for Your forgiveness.
      I believe You died for my sins and rose from the dead. I turn from my sins
      and invite You to come into my heart and life. I want to trust and follow
      You as my Lord and Savior. In Your Name. Amen."
      __from the Billy Graham Crusades



      _____________


      My view is that we can make things to complicated, in the name of being "true to the text" as we

      interpret the Holy Bible.

      There is one message for Theological Classes in Theological Seminaries, but quite a different message
      when conducting Evangelistic Crusades, agree?

      ___________


      Would you "run this by" a potential convert in an Evangelistic Crusade? , , , /Big Grin here.



      V.
      Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory,(i) out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereuntok) and all to the praise of His glorious grace.(l)

      VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, fore-ordained all the means thereunto.(m) Wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,(n) are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,(o) and kept by His power through faith, unto salvation.(p) Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.(q)

      VII.
      The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath, for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.(r)
      Source: The Westminster Confession Of faith.

      https://www.ligonier.org/learn/artic...fession-faith/

      _________________


      I have "racked my brain" for decades with theological hair-splitting and I have
      grown tired of it. Its the "same ole same ole" endlessly in thread after thread.
      So? So I take the simple approach -- as I have presented in some of my posts
      in this thread. To simple?

      Am I being to simple?

      ______


      I Am Open To Lon's Ideas , , ,
      However I am open to your ideas. I have read enough of your posts to know that
      you have interesting and informative points to make. I stand to benefit from reading
      what you write -- and I will appreciate any thoughts or responses to what I have written
      above -- if you find any of it interesting enough to merit a reply. If not feel free to ignore
      whatever you find uninteresting.

      _____________


      Lon,
      In another vein, here is a short piece I wrote and just today re-worked it. I post it
      below just to "be chatty" with you. I seem to recall having mentioned this to you
      previously -- but I'm not certain if I did or not.

      You have any views on this:

      Here tis:


      Playing The B-Card And The G-Card , , ,
      In my view the Christian is treated better on Secular Forums than they
      are treated on Christian Forums. On many Christian Forums one's fellow
      Christians become
      Cannibals as they "eat each other alive" in the name
      of God and in the name of Truth. Sad but true , , ,

      ``
      , , , and our fellow Christians will play the B-Card and the G-Card in a flash.
      The B-Card is "If you disagree with me, then you are disagreeing with the Bible."

      ``
      The G-Card is "If you disagree with me, then you are disagreeing with God."
      When they play the B-Card and the G-Card, the "debate" is pretty much over --
      because No Christian can disagree with the Bible or with God, right?

      ``
      And AFTER they play the B-Card and the G-Card if you "keep going" against
      their personal interpretation of the Bible -- many of them will immediately
      PUT YOU IN HELL - - - and tell you that you are NOT EVEN A CHRISTIAN.
      Sad but true. But it tis a Fact.




      Some Bible Verses That Might Apply , , ,
      "If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by
      each other."___Galatians 5:15

      "Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as
      in Christ God forgave you."___Ephesians 4:32

      "Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be
      compassionate and humble."__1 Peter 3:8

      "Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual
      edification."__Romans 14:19

      "If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with
      everyone."___Romans 12:18

      "Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate
      and humble."__1 Peter 3:8

      "Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they
      produce quarrels."__2 Timothy 2:23

      "Keep reminding God's people of these things. Warn them before God against
      quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen."__2 Timothy 2:14

      Best.

      JAGG


      ``











      Comment


      • #18

        Trimmed down to more specific points...
        Originally posted by JAGG View Post
        Can men be saved without being born again? No.
        So does God want all men to be born again? Yes.
        Does God want all men to be saved? Yes.
        Can any man be saved without believing as per John 3:16? No.
        I'm not MAD but I have quite a bit of agreement with them. On this one?

        Originally posted by JAGG View Post
        So does John 3:16 imply that men must make a decision? Yes.
        Implications, I'm much more cautious about. I could say "I think so" but no further.

        Originally posted by JAGG View Post
        Was Nicodemus a man? Yes.
        Does God want all men to be saved? Yes.
        Could Nicodemus be saved without being born again? No.
        Did Jesus and God want Nicodemus to be saved? Yes.
        Did Jesus and God want Nicodemus to be born again? Yes
        In light of all that up there does John 3:16 call on men to choose? Yes.
        To choose what? Answer: To choose to believe in the Lord Jesus
        Have to disagree because the assumption doesn't fit. "As Moses lifted the serpent, so the Son of Man must be lifted up" hadn't happened yet.

        Originally posted by JAGG View Post
        In light of all that up there would God desire all men to pray and ask for God's help to be born again? Yes.
        Its a drawn conclusion, again upon assumptions of 'light' of previous assumptions. There is no 'pray and ask for help to be born again' in the passage.
        Originally posted by JAGG View Post
        Is it reasonable to believe that Nicodemus, after talking to Jesus, wanted to be born again? Yes.
        Is it reasonable to believe that Jesus wanted Nicodemus to ask God or the Holy Spirit to help him become born again? Yes.
        Again, such gets into mind-reading and I really hesitate to make assumptions about the scriptures. Such leads to further assumptions and beyond the scope of the scriptures.

        Originally posted by Billy Graham
        "Dear Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I ask for Your forgiveness.
        I believe You died for my sins and rose from the dead. I turn from my sins
        and invite You to come into my heart and life. I want to trust and follow
        You as my Lord and Savior. In Your Name. Amen."
        __from the Billy Graham Crusades

        Well and good, but not sure it applies to John 3 here, other than Billy Graham used John 3:16 to invite people to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
        Originally posted by JAGG View Post
        My view is that we can make things to complicated, in the name of being "true to the text" as we
        Originally posted by JAGG View Post
        [SIZE=18px]interpret the Holy Bible.
        Yeah, I believe your post does fall in line with that. Lest I'm supporting the traditions of men, if I cannot show it, clearly, from scripture, I'm both hesitant and careful in conveying ideas.
        There is one message for Theological Classes in Theological Seminaries, but quite a different message
        when conducting Evangelistic Crusades, agree?
        Again, while John 3:16 is a set up for trusting Christ, I know a few now-atheists that said that prayer.

        Originally posted by JAGG View Post
        Would you "run this by" a potential convert in an Evangelistic Crusade? , , , /Big Grin here.


        V.
        Originally posted by JAGG View Post
        Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory,(i) out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereuntok) and all to the praise of His glorious grace.(l)

        VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, fore-ordained all the means thereunto.(m) Wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,(n) are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,(o) and kept by His power through faith, unto salvation.(p) Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.(q)

        VII.
        The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath, for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.(r)
        Source: The Westminster Confession Of faith.

        https://www.ligonier.org/learn/artic...fession-faith/

        [SIZE=18px]_________________
        Originally posted by JAGG View Post
        I rather believe scripture should be given to people who want to know about the Lord Jesus Christ.

        I have "racked my brain" for decades with theological hair-splitting and I have
        grown tired of it. Its the "same ole same ole" endlessly in thread after thread.
        So? So I take the simple approach -- as I have presented in some of my posts
        in this thread. To simple?

        Am I being to simple?
        The more I've presented the scriptures, the more I'm convinced that I need to answer the question: "What must I do to be saved?" Answer? "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved."



        Originally posted by JAGG View Post
        I Am Open To Lon's Ideas , , ,
        However I am open to your ideas. I have read enough of your posts to know that
        you have interesting and informative points to make. I stand to benefit from reading
        what you write -- and I will appreciate any thoughts or responses to what I have written
        above -- if you find any of it interesting enough to merit a reply. If not feel free to ignore
        whatever you find uninteresting.


        Appreciate that. I don't generally go this direction with John 3 though I do realize Billy Graham, Luis Palau, etc use this passage to introduce an invitation and prayer.

        I'm not against the idea per say, but I've come to a point where I try to give scripture to answer specific questions. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" for me, is before a prayer etc.

        Originally posted by JAGG View Post
        Lon,
        In another vein, here is a short piece I wrote and just today re-worked it. I post it
        below just to "be chatty" with you. I seem to recall having mentioned this to you
        previously -- but I'm not certain if I did or not.

        You have any views on this:

        Here tis:
        Originally posted by JAGG View Post

        Playing The B-Card And The G-Card , , ,
        In my view the Christian is treated better on Secular Forums than they
        are treated on Christian Forums. On many Christian Forums one's fellow
        Christians become
        Cannibals as they "eat each other alive" in the name
        of God and in the name of Truth. Sad but true , , ,

        ``
        , , , and our fellow Christians will play the B-Card and the G-Card in a flash.
        The B-Card is "If you disagree with me, then you are disagreeing with the Bible."

        ``
        The G-Card is "If you disagree with me, then you are disagreeing with God."
        When they play the B-Card and the G-Card, the "debate" is pretty much over --
        because No Christian can disagree with the Bible or with God, right?

        ``
        And AFTER they play the B-Card and the G-Card if you "keep going" against
        their personal interpretation of the Bible -- many of them will immediately
        PUT YOU IN HELL - - - and tell you that you are NOT EVEN A CHRISTIAN.
        Sad but true. But it tis a Fact.




        Some Bible Verses That Might Apply , , ,
        "If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by
        each other."___Galatians 5:15

        "Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as
        in Christ God forgave you."___Ephesians 4:32

        "Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be
        compassionate and humble."__1 Peter 3:8

        "Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual
        edification."__Romans 14:19

        "If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with
        everyone."___Romans 12:18

        "Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate
        and humble."__1 Peter 3:8

        "Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they
        produce quarrels."__2 Timothy 2:23

        "Keep reminding God's people of these things. Warn them before God against
        quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen."__2 Timothy 2:14

        Best.

        JAGG


        ``

        I've posted similar that we need to treat one another well but I'd not go as far as: Better on a secular forum? Not for me. If you mention Jesus Christ or political disagreement, for instance, on Facebook, the treatment isn't great.

        I've seen a lot of Christians say this, but I think it has to be an eye of the beholder thing, because I'm certain I've never seen this and certainly have been treated worse by nonChristians. Have I been at the mercy of Christians too? Yes, just saying I'm not seeing anything stark in the difference EXCEPT when Christians are fellowshipping and getting along, I've never seen a counterpart (biased, but I think as it should be).
        My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
        Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
        Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
        Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
        No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
        Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

        ? Yep

        Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

        ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

        Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Lon View Post
          Trimmed down to more specific points...

          I'm not MAD but I have quite a bit of agreement with them. On this one?


          Implications, I'm much more cautious about. I could say "I think so" but no further.


          Have to disagree because the assumption doesn't fit. "As Moses lifted the serpent, so the Son of Man must be lifted up" hadn't happened yet.


          Its a drawn conclusion, again upon assumptions of 'light' of previous assumptions. There is no 'pray and ask for help to be born again' in the passage.

          Again, such gets into mind-reading and I really hesitate to make assumptions about the scriptures. Such leads to further assumptions and beyond the scope of the scriptures.


          Well and good, but not sure it applies to John 3 here, other than Billy Graham used John 3:16 to invite people to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
          Yeah, I believe your post does fall in line with that. Lest I'm supporting the traditions of men, if I cannot show it, clearly, from scripture, I'm both hesitant and careful in conveying ideas.

          Again, while John 3:16 is a set up for trusting Christ, I know a few now-atheists that said that prayer.


          The more I've presented the scriptures, the more I'm convinced that I need to answer the question: "What must I do to be saved?" Answer? "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved."

          Appreciate that. I don't generally go this direction with John 3 though I do realize Billy Graham, Luis Palau, etc use this passage to introduce an invitation and prayer.

          I'm not against the idea per say, but I've come to a point where I try to give scripture to answer specific questions. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" for me, is before a prayer etc.


          I've posted similar that we need to treat one another well but I'd not go as far as: Better on a secular forum? Not for me. If you mention Jesus Christ or political disagreement, for instance, on Facebook, the treatment isn't great.

          I've seen a lot of Christians say this, but I think it has to be an eye of the beholder thing, because I'm certain I've never seen this and certainly have been treated worse by nonChristians. Have I been at the mercy of Christians too? Yes, just saying I'm not seeing anything stark in the difference EXCEPT when Christians are fellowshipping and getting along, I've never seen a counterpart (biased, but I think as it should be).
          Lon,
          I read every word you wrote up there and I appreciate your reply
          and you taking the time to respond to what I posted.

          I don't have anything right now to "add to" what I have previously posted,
          but in an effort to "keep in touch" I will ask you what are your major areas
          of interest? It is always nice to find someone that has common interest, on
          the Internet, with which to chat once in awhile -- on subjects of mutual interest.
          Even if the chat is only "now and then" , , , ,and not "long & drawn out" , , ,
          Have you written anything lately?
          Do you write articles and post them?
          Do you blog?
          What are your Eschatological views?

          I am a Postmillennialist and have been one for decades.
          Here is one of my major themes:
          He Shall Have Dominion is THE major theme of my life.

          Christ Shall Have Dominion.

          Christ "shall have dominion from sea to sea" Psalm 72:8
          Christ. "the whole Earth will be filled with His glory" Psalm 72:19
          So that "all nations shall call Him blessed" Psalm 72:17
          And the Lord Jesus really meant it when He commanded His Christian
          Church to "go and make disciples of all nations" Matthew 28:19

          I believe the Christian Church will successfully carry out her Great Commission
          and that the vast overwhelming majority of humanity will be salvaged -- that the
          world, in the far off mega-millenniums, will be Christianized -- not that every single
          soul will become a born again Christian, but that the vast majority will be salvaged.

          I'm not trying to get an argument going here --- merely putting out feelers to see if
          we have any common Eschatological ground? I do not argue Christian Eschatology
          inside Thread World -- doing that reduces to Thread-Insanity -- I have NEVER seen
          it go otherwise in threads. It ends up with huge "Data Dumps" copied off of
          "End-Times" web pages and all that accompanied by playing the B-Card and the
          G-Card, plus hostility galore. , , lol , , ,

          _______________

          Lon,

          What are your major themes?
          What is your main message to other people?
          What do you desire to impart unto them?
          What do you want them to know?
          If you were asked to tell JAGG 3 things you think are crucial to the correct
          understanding of Christianity what would they be?
          {1} ___________
          {2} __________
          {3} __________

          Or we can go with just 2 or just 1
          Also if the above does not interest you, feel free to ignore it.

          What is Lon's major message to people on the Internet?

          Best.

          JAGG

          _________


          Thought For Today:

          "He was despised and rejected by mankind,
          a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
          Like one from whom people hide their faces
          he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
          Surely he took up our pain
          and bore our suffering,
          yet we considered him punished by God,
          stricken by him, and afflicted.
          But he was pierced for our transgressions,
          he was crushed for our iniquities;
          the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
          and by his wounds we are healed.
          We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
          each of us has turned to our own way;
          and the Lord has laid on him
          the iniquity of us all."
          Isaiah 53









          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by JAGG View Post
            Lon,

            What are your major themes?
            What is your main message to other people?
            What do you desire to impart unto them?
            What do you want them to know?
            If you were asked to tell JAGG 3 things you think are crucial to the correct
            understanding of Christianity what would they be?
            {1} ___________
            {2} __________
            {3} __________

            Or we can go with just 2 or just 1
            Also if the above does not interest you, feel free to ignore it.

            What is Lon's major message to people on the Internet?

            Best.

            JAGG

            _________


            Thought For Today:[/SIZE]
            "He was despised and rejected by mankind,
            a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
            Like one from whom people hide their faces
            he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
            Surely he took up our pain
            and bore our suffering,
            yet we considered him punished by God,
            stricken by him, and afflicted.
            But he was pierced for our transgressions,
            he was crushed for our iniquities;
            the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
            and by his wounds we are healed.
            We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
            each of us has turned to our own way;
            and the Lord has laid on him
            the iniquity of us all."
            Isaiah 53

            Uhhg, TOL lost my reply. I'll have to rewrite it, a little time please.

            My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
            Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
            Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
            Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
            No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
            Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

            ? Yep

            Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

            ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

            Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by JAGG View Post
              What is Lon's major message to people on the Internet?
              Wow, HAD to trim this down. I do construction (self-contracting), and I had a job to spread 16 yards of gravel, only it delivered 26 yards of gravel.
              At the end of the day, I was exhausted and there wasn't room on the property. I kind of feel like that here, there is a ton in the answer but I think 2 or 3 as you ask is a good start.

              Originally posted by JAGG View Post
              What are your major themes?
              1) Love God/Love man (the two great commandments on which all else hangs).
              2) Want to be like Jesus? Spend time with Jesus. Do daily devotions in scripture, prayer, and silence ("stand silent and know that I Am God").
              3) Examine all paradigms in light of scripture and change/allow yourself to be changed more readily.

              Originally posted by JAGG View Post
              What is your main message to other people?
              "God has the answers and remedy for all the ills of life, through Jesus Christ His Son."

              Originally posted by JAGG View Post
              If you were asked to tell JAGG 3 things you think are crucial to the correct
              understanding of Christianity what would they be?
              {1} ___________
              {2} __________
              {3} __________
              The same for Christians and those seeking, as given above.


              Originally posted by JAGG View Post
              What is Lon's major message to people on the Internet?
              How about one major issue for the moment:
              I'd like to see TOL people grasp that God is the answer to man's ills, politics are movements rather than answers to those ills because only Christians are capable of acting on the part of others, with their best interests held.

              I'd like to see TOL people grasp that us/them is often just 'us' and we need to grasp not just 'us' but that 'them' in some sense is 'us' too. Currently, I've been keenly aware of commercials and television shows (I don't watch a lot) has a lot more color than my own. It is 'odd' and I've wondered that it isn't fully representative of a majority. I asked: "don't they want me to buy their phone too?" It isn't that, it is about remedying a slight, and going a bit overboard to do so. That's a good thing. Whatever we do in love, is a good thing. Us/them always tears us apart. The Lord Jesus Christ prayed that we'd be one as He and the Father are One. It is part of the second command to love on another. I've a long way to go and I'm working on it and invite others to do so too. Also, that we be encouraged: It isn't 'try' but Christ working in us as His workmanship. It is a trust issue by faith.
              My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
              Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
              Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
              Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
              No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
              Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

              ? Yep

              Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

              ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

              Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Lon View Post
                Uhhg, TOL lost my reply. I'll have to rewrite it, a little time please.
                Sorry you lost your work. I have had that happen to me a few
                times and it was a lengthy composition too.

                And thank for re-writing what you wrote.


                JAG

                ``

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Lon View Post
                  Wow, HAD to trim this down.
                  I understand.
                  I write a lot of stuff.
                  It just flows naturally.
                  I probably need to condense my stuff.
                  Maybe one day , , ,


                  Originally posted by Lon View Post
                  I do construction (self-contracting), and I had a job to spread
                  16 yards of gravel, only it delivered 26 yards of gravel.
                  At the end of the day, I was exhausted and there wasn't room
                  on the property. I kind of feel like that here, there is a ton in
                  the answer but I think 2 or 3 as you ask is a good start.
                  Lon,

                  I have had a lot of experience spreading gravel. We call it
                  "Crush And Run" where I live.

                  There was a time long ago when I had the great enjoyment of
                  driving a full size Dump Truck and we delivered "Crush And Run"
                  and Sand to construction job sites.

                  I got so good at dumping "Crush And Run" that the Motor Graders
                  did not even have to do any spread work at all.

                  I mean I learned how to "hook my chains" in such a way that I could
                  "lay down" a spread of "Crush And Run" that was one smooth thin
                  layer of rocks.

                  By the way, I was "in good" with the owner of the Construction
                  Company and he gave me a brand new Ford Dump truck to drive
                  that had an automatic transmission, AC, Radio, special air seats
                  to absorb the road bumps. A Candy Apple Red Dump truck.

                  I loved it. I used to joke with the owner and tell him that "I should
                  be the one one paying you, for the opportunity to be a part of the
                  excitement of working on these really big construction sites."

                  We had some 20 Dump Trucks delivering "Crush And Run" and Sand
                  to construction job sites and all the Buzz and Pure Energy was really
                  electrifying to me -- because I had always previously only done office
                  work.

                  We would have some 20 Dump Trucks, 1 Motor Grader, and 2 Bulldozers
                  all going at the same time. I would be playing some cool music on the
                  radio as I pulled onto the construction job sites -- it was a very enjoyable
                  period in my life.

                  My children had finished their education and had left home and it was just
                  me and the wife and by God's Grace we had all our cars and our home
                  paid for, so I decided to go and get myself a Commercial Drivers License
                  and get a job driving a Dump Truck -- so I did that. I mean it was really
                  a super great exciting adventure for me. I even learned how to operate a
                  Back Hoe and could load my own truck with sand at our Sand Pits.

                  The only part about the job I did not like was at the Rock Quarry the
                  operator of the Loader would often over-load the Dump Trucks and
                  when we got to the scales to weigh, I would have to return to the
                  Rock Pile and dump out a yard or two of the "Crush And Run" and
                  then I would have to clean off the excess rocks on my tailgate. In
                  my state if the DMV catches you "over-loaded" with weight -- they
                  can put heavy $ fines on you. Dump Truck tear up the highway's
                  surfaces, as you know. The DMV people carry scales in their
                  patrol cars and they pull you over and weigh you right then and
                  there along side the highway.

                  Lon, there is no reply expected to any of that up there. I just thought you
                  might find it interesting since you are in Construction Work. However,
                  any more thoughts that you have on YOUR Construction work I would find
                  very interesting to read.


                  Originally posted by Lon View Post
                  1) Love God/Love man (the two great commandments on which all else hangs).
                  2) Want to be like Jesus? Spend time with Jesus. Do daily devotions in scripture,
                  prayer, and silence ("stand silent and know that I Am God").
                  3) Examine all paradigms in light of scripture and change/allow yourself to be
                  changed more readily.


                  "God has the answers and remedy for all the ills of life, through Jesus Christ His Son."


                  The same for Christians and those seeking, as given above.



                  How about one major issue for the moment:
                  I'd like to see TOL people grasp that God is the answer to man's ills, politics are
                  movements rather than answers to those ills because only Christians are capable
                  of acting on the part of others, with their best interests held.

                  I'd like to see TOL people grasp that us/them is often just 'us' and we need to grasp
                  not just 'us' but that 'them' in some sense is 'us' too. Currently, I've been keenly aware
                  of commercials and television shows (I don't watch a lot) has a lot more color than my
                  own. It is 'odd' and I've wondered that it isn't fully representative of a majority. I asked:
                  "don't they want me to buy their phone too?" It isn't that, it is about remedying a slight,
                  and going a bit overboard to do so. That's a good thing. Whatever we do in love, is a
                  good thing. Us/them always tears us apart. The Lord Jesus Christ prayed that we'd be
                  one as He and the Father are One. It is part of the second command to love on another.
                  I've a long way to go and I'm working on it and invite others to do so too. Also, that we
                  be encouraged: It isn't 'try' but Christ working in us as His workmanship. It is a trust
                  issue by faith.

                  Lon, I read every word of all that you wrote up there and I really appreciate
                  you telling me that. It was like reading a short devotional that was a real
                  blessing to read. In my view, you have "got it nailed down" true and solid.

                  I will make a few remarks that were inspired by me reading what you wrote.

                  All human problems, at root, are spiritual problems, and there are no political
                  solutions to spiritual problems. There are only spiritual solutions to spiritual
                  problems. If you "fix" the problem with politics, you only "fix" it in one spot,
                  the SAME ROOT problem will "pop-up" again in another place, this time in
                  a different form, but still the same "root problem."

                  Here is the one and only true solution to permanently fix the "root problem"
                  of all human problems:
                  {1} Step one ~ you must ne "born again" John 3:3 {this makes {2} and {3} possible}
                  {2} Step two ~ you must accept the Lord Jesus as your Savior John 3:16 {this makes {3} possible}
                  {3} Step three ~ you must allow the Holy Spirit to create the "fruits of the Spirit"
                  in your life Galatians 5:22 - 23
                  ~ love
                  ~ joy
                  ~ peace
                  ~ patience
                  ~ kindness
                  ~ goodness
                  ~ faithfulness
                  ~ gentleness
                  ~ self-control

                  In {3} I use the word "allow" by which I mean we have to cooperate with the Holy Spirit
                  in His work to make us into the image of the Lord Jesus.

                  _________________


                  Regarding Christian Unity.
                  Yeah I long for the day when Christendom speaks the same doctrinal language.
                  Alas that is many mega-millenniums yet in the future, meanwhile we have some
                  64 "flavors" of Baptist alone --- I think that's counting the abandoned store-front
                  start-ups.
                  And have you ever read Calvinists vs. Armenian Threads {its a house of horrors}
                  And Catholic vs. Protestant Threads {its another house of horrors}
                  I mean the "Cannibals" show up and very hungry too , ,
                  And they play the B-Card and the G-Card constantly as they "eat each other
                  alive" in the Name Of Defending The Truth.
                  And then there is Politics Threads that end up "bloody" as the Conservatives vs.
                  Liberals "tear into one another" inside Thread World on the Internet At large.
                  But Christendom will one day in the far future -- be Unified doctrinally.

                  ____________________

                  Regarding the Great Love Principle as being the core of the Christian Faith, yeah I am
                  with you on that 100%.
                  {1} Love God with all your mind, heart, and soul , , ,
                  and
                  {2} Love your neighbor as you love yourself.
                  These are the two great goals of the Christian life.

                  ___________


                  Lon,
                  Thank you again for your comments and for taking the time to respond to
                  my posts. I really appreciate you doing that.

                  Feel free to reply ONLY to what interest you personally.

                  Keep in touch , , ,


                  JAG









                  Comment

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