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Does Holy Scripture with no outside knowledge = proven saved + determinism 

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  • Does Holy Scripture with no outside knowledge = proven saved + determinism 

    Nine months ago I was sort of Roman Catholic. After joining TOL, thanks to some of the folks here, I quickly became a Protestant, then a Calvinist Protestant. Although, those labels are worldly and not scriptural. I don’t like ‘em.

    Over the past few months I have been able so read Scripture as never before…and with much fewer preconceptions than the average person.

    There is remarkable consistency across Scripture. Where there are tensions, they tend to be the same tensions. Some of these consistencies: again and again, the reader is exhorted to believe. Again and again, the reader is told that a believer must pass the test. Again and again, the reader is assured that those who have believed are saved. Unless I have been excluded from being able to see the truth, this has to equal the proven saved doctrine when you put it together.

    Determinism is also very apparent in Scripture. Again and again, true believers are referred to as chosen. Romans says it does not depend on a man’s will or desire, but on God’s mercy. It took me a while to except determinism…I tried to see Romans as referring to groups instead of individuals. But it didn’t work. Reading it with a heart open to God’s will and to the concept that God can be love and also a wrathful being, I could not force my will upon this Scripture passage. Romans 9 to 11 is about groups and individuals. We probably don’t have to be dogmatic about the particulars…in fact Paul warns us that we can’t understand the mind of God at the end of this discourse.

    But I came to see that I could give up all my ideas about the existence of free will when it comes to essential acts, and even anything good that anyone does. That doesn’t mean we have to view ourselves as puppets. We don’t feel grace effortlessly moving our limbs, and we don’t make tough decisions without heartache. Even though any eternally meaningful act or decision is God acting, normally we still feel the pain or joy of the whole process as if we had done it ourselves. This still serves as an explanation of how God cleanses for himself a people for himself. It not might make perfect sense to me, but might not my ability to understand true justice and reality be impaired in this world?

    Determinism gives us a great weapon in debate against secular humanists. Humanists tend to argue, often somewhat convincingly, that people are mostly good, and that we it is wrong or unkind to view other people as not saved as long as they are an overall nice person. But determinism can show us how big the gap is…and that it is ultimately kinder to preach the truth that many such nice people are far from saved, that if the conditions were just changed a little bit they might act very differently and kill to stay alive. That whole “nice” image might be much more of an illusion than we realize…just because people seem to get along doesn’t they mean they aren’t thinking about their material wants 75 percent of the time, and even when they are being kind it might just be largely because it makes them feel good or that the power to better themselves lies with themselves.

    I don’t have all the answers…but aren’t these essential and basic truths that anyone who has ears to hear can accept? Anyone who doesn’t cherry pick certain verses from here and there?

  • #2
    I should add that only 2 Corinthians 13:5 speaks about passing the test. However, I was reading a blog from Credo House (seems to be taking Calvinist positions a lot of the time?) and the author or someone in the comments was linking this passage to other ones.

    Comment


    • #3
      By the way, Jesus was clear about the Will of God (to me in the least, God is the One Will/Power of the Father in Heaven and Jesus, unified, since before Creation, by the Divine Spirit of Love, the Holy Spirit).

      The Will of God, as revealed and lived by Jesus, is about God's Love and not about obedience and justice (as it is the case of Pagans, Muslims and Jews who should obey a certain God's Law).

      Therefore, I wonder how many people around the world can agree with Jesus when he says:

      "That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."

      And, to be a child of the Father in Heaven, one needs having the ability to do the following (which contradicts his instincts concerning his flesh's survival)

      "I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;"

      This is one aspect of True Love which has no master to obey or justice to be applied on the evil and unjust.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by thborn View Post
        I should add that only 2 Corinthians 13:5 speaks about passing the test.
        Read 2 Corinthians 13:5 carefully.

        If you have to test yourself to see if you are in the Lord, you are not.

        Those who have the Spirit of the Lord live through the Spirit of the Lord.

        You know if you are living to please the Lord.

        Originally posted by thborn View Post

        However, I was reading a blog from Credo House (seems to be taking Calvinist positions a lot of the time?) and the author or someone in the comments was linking this passage to other ones.
        It is best to not read the writings of those who claim a denomination. You will stop hearing the Spirit and start hearing the denominations teacher.
        Oh how I love the Word of God!

        Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by thborn View Post
          Nine months ago I was sort of Roman Catholic. After joining TOL, thanks to some of the folks here, I quickly became a Protestant, then a Calvinist Protestant. Although, those labels are worldly and not scriptural. I don’t like ‘em.
          But are you going to believe what they teach? No one should.

          Originally posted by thborn View Post

          Over the past few months I have been able so read Scripture as never before…and with much fewer preconceptions than the average person.

          There is remarkable consistency across Scripture. Where there are tensions, they tend to be the same tensions. Some of these consistencies: again and again, the reader is exhorted to believe. Again and again, the reader is told that a believer must pass the test. Again and again, the reader is assured that those who have believed are saved. Unless I have been excluded from being able to see the truth, this has to equal the proven saved doctrine when you put it together.

          Determinism is also very apparent in Scripture. Again and again, true believers are referred to as chosen. Romans says it does not depend on a man’s will or desire, but on God’s mercy. It took me a while to except determinism…I tried to see Romans as referring to groups instead of individuals. But it didn’t work. Reading it with a heart open to God’s will and to the concept that God can be love and also a wrathful being, I could not force my will upon this Scripture passage. Romans 9 to 11 is about groups and individuals. We probably don’t have to be dogmatic about the particulars…in fact Paul warns us that we can’t understand the mind of God at the end of this discourse.
          Through Jesus and obeying him we can know God and be known by God.

          Originally posted by thborn View Post

          But I came to see that I could give up all my ideas about the existence of free will when it comes to essential acts, and even anything good that anyone does.
          You are letting men teach you their truth instead of letting the Holy Spirit teach you God's Truth.

          Originally posted by thborn View Post
          That doesn’t mean we have to view ourselves as puppets. We don’t feel grace effortlessly moving our limbs, and we don’t make tough decisions without heartache. Even though any eternally meaningful act or decision is God acting, normally we still feel the pain or joy of the whole process as if we had done it ourselves. This still serves as an explanation of how God cleanses for himself a people for himself. It not might make perfect sense to me, but might not my ability to understand true justice and reality be impaired in this world?

          Determinism gives us a great weapon in debate against secular humanists. Humanists tend to argue, often somewhat convincingly, that people are mostly good, and that we it is wrong or unkind to view other people as not saved as long as they are an overall nice person. But determinism can show us how big the gap is…and that it is ultimately kinder to preach the truth that many such nice people are far from saved, that if the conditions were just changed a little bit they might act very differently and kill to stay alive. That whole “nice” image might be much more of an illusion than we realize…just because people seem to get along doesn’t they mean they aren’t thinking about their material wants 75 percent of the time, and even when they are being kind it might just be largely because it makes them feel good or that the power to better themselves lies with themselves.

          I don’t have all the answers…but aren’t these essential and basic truths that anyone who has ears to hear can accept? Anyone who doesn’t cherry pick certain verses from here and there?
          You just have to know that you are being taught by men and not the Holy Spirit when you spend so much time reading the writings of teachers who themselves were taught by teachers.
          Oh how I love the Word of God!

          Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

          Comment


          • #6
            My only teacher about 'Life Reality' is my Creator in person; Jesus on the Gospel though after filtering and adjusting its content (concerning Jesus sayings and life); a process which is done any time an important data is received thru a long noisy channel.

            Although Jesus, being all-knowledge, saved me completely from my confusion/doubt (ignorance) about everything in my life and my afterlife, I don't see, till now in the least, that my role is to preach His message of Love (of the Holy Spirit) since I am just an ordinary person, since always, to whom no one listen in the first place

            And I believe that if someone couldn't get the logical answers of all his important questions about life from Jesus on the Gospel directly, he can be sure that he cannot get them from any other source.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by KerimF View Post
              My only teacher about 'Life Reality' is my Creator in person; Jesus on the Gospel though after filtering and adjusting its content (concerning Jesus sayings and life); a process which is done any time an important data is received thru a long noisy channel.

              Although Jesus, being all-knowledge, saved me completely from my confusion/doubt (ignorance) about everything in my life and my afterlife, I don't see, till now in the least, that my role is to preach His message of Love (of the Holy Spirit) since I am just an ordinary person, since always, to whom no one listen in the first place

              And I believe that if someone couldn't get the logical answers of all his important questions about life from Jesus on the Gospel directly, he can be sure that he cannot get them from any other source.
              The Bible is God's preserved written word. It is perfect as it it. We are not to add or subtract from it.

              Oh how I love the Word of God!

              Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
                The Bible is God's preserved written word. It is perfect as it it. We are not to add or subtract from it.
                I can't say you are wrong because this is how a book should be read (with no addition or subtraction of any sort) when approved by the clerics of a religion as being holy.

                In fact, Pagans, Muslims, Jews and formal Christians are all supposed to preserve every word and even every letter written on a book once it is approved being holy by their privileged religious Elders.

                But Jesus, I know, didn't come to let me worship idols of any form; statues, monuments, images or words.
                Jesus came to give me the knowledge I need about His Creation (and of the Father in Heaven too, since both are unified by the Holy Spirit, before it) also about God's Spiritual Realm which is based solely on the Divine Spirit of Love... the Holy Spirit.

                {Matthew 12:31-32}
                Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men.
                And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
                Please don't worry about other readers here. Any reader has, as you and I have, a brilliant human brain and knows very well what is good for him already.
                For example, I doubt there is even one member here who knew Jesus as I did

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by God's Truth View Post

                  Read 2 Corinthians 13:5 carefully.
                  I don't think it's about testing yourself...I think it's about God's judgment and grace and will.

                  Originally posted by God's Truth View Post

                  It is best to not read the writings of those who claim a denomination. You will stop hearing the Spirit and start hearing the denominations teacher.
                  Yes, so I tend to look for ones who take an honest look at Scripture and use labels of denominations loosely. God has used certain Baptist and Calvinist ones to help me a lot, I believe.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by KerimF View Post
                    My only teacher about 'Life Reality' is my Creator in person; Jesus on the Gospel though after filtering and adjusting its content (concerning Jesus sayings and life); a process which is done any time an important data is received thru a long noisy channel.

                    Although Jesus, being all-knowledge, saved me completely from my confusion/doubt (ignorance) about everything in my life and my afterlife, I don't see, till now in the least, that my role is to preach His message of Love (of the Holy Spirit) since I am just an ordinary person, since always, to whom no one listen in the first place

                    And I believe that if someone couldn't get the logical answers of all his important questions about life from Jesus on the Gospel directly, he can be sure that he cannot get them from any other source.
                    I also believe that I have been saved, and God's grace has shown me how to look at the teachings of Jesus as well as what Romans and other books say about salvation by grace, faith, determinism. And if I am among those who can hear the Gospel, I and all who have such a gift should help others with the essentials.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by thborn View Post

                      I don't think it's about testing yourself...I think it's about God's judgment and grace and will.



                      Yes, so I tend to look for ones who take an honest look at Scripture and use labels of denominations loosely. God has used certain Baptist and Calvinist ones to help me a lot, I believe.
                      Both those denominations are false. Don't go by any teacher. Only go by Jesus, who says that he will teach you, if you get his commands and obey them.
                      Oh how I love the Word of God!

                      Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by KerimF View Post

                        I can't say you are wrong because this is how a book should be read (with no addition or subtraction of any sort) when approved by the clerics of a religion as being holy.
                        The scriptures were considered holy all along and not just when a clerical person called it so.
                        Originally posted by KerimF View Post

                        In fact, Pagans, Muslims, Jews and formal Christians are all supposed to preserve every word and even every letter written on a book once it is approved being holy by their privileged religious Elders.

                        But Jesus, I know, didn't come to let me worship idols of any form; statues, monuments, images or words.
                        That is not true. You wouldn't have known anything about Jesus if you didn't hear about him from the Holy Bible.

                        You are not right to say the words of the Bible aren't right when it comes to Jesus.

                        Originally posted by KerimF View Post
                        Jesus came to give me the knowledge I need about His Creation (and of the Father in Heaven too, since both are unified by the Holy Spirit, before it) also about God's Spiritual Realm which is based solely on the Divine Spirit of Love... the Holy Spirit.
                        The Holy Spirit is the Father and is Jesus.


                        Originally posted by KerimF View Post

                        Please don't worry about other readers here. Any reader has, as you and I have, a brilliant human brain and knows very well what is good for him already.
                        For example, I doubt there is even one member here who knew Jesus as I did
                        I teach God's Truth and that is to whether or not someone denies the truth that I speak.
                        Oh how I love the Word of God!

                        Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
                          The scriptures were considered holy all along and not just when a clerical person called it so.
                          Let us consider the following verse, said holy:
                          And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. {Matthew 10:28}
                          I bet you (like many others) have your good reasons to understand 'fear him' as 'fear God'.

                          On my side, I have also my good reasons that 'fear him' doesn't mean 'fear God'.
                          For example, even on earth, I can't truly love/trust someone and fear him, in any way, at the same time; unless I am not sure that he deserves my unlimited trust in the first place.

                          Jesus is clear about loving/trusting God to no limit; unless you understand His first advice {Matthew 22:37} much like expressing loyalty towards a powerful cruel king to avoid his wrath (obviously, if this is the case, one has to fear God).

                          So the way I understand {Matthew 22:37}, 'fear him' means, to me, 'be on guard against whoever' has enough means (and privileges) to deceive/fool me to let me act as a living being looking for survival by following my instincts instead of living God's Love towards all others (guided by the Holy Spirit).

                          In this example and even without adding or subtraction anything to/from the two verses above {Matthew 10:28} and {Matthew 22:37}, we, you and I, got Jesus message differently and I am afraid that no one (nothing) can change this situation

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by KerimF View Post

                            Let us consider the following verse, said holy:
                            And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. {Matthew 10:28}

                            I bet you (like many others) have your good reasons to understand 'fear him' as 'fear God'.
                            It is about fearing God.

                            God is near those that fear him.

                            We are not supposed to fear the devil.

                            See where you go off on your own false teachings.

                            Originally posted by KerimF View Post

                            On my side, I have also my good reasons that 'fear him' doesn't mean 'fear God'.
                            For example, even on earth, I can't truly love/trust someone and fear him, in any way, at the same time; unless I am not sure that he deserves my unlimited trust in the first place.
                            You are going against the words of GOD.

                            You are also exalting yourself.

                            You have to go through the gate, which is Jesus Christ, who says fear God and who says to humble yourself.

                            You are entering the pen another way.

                            You ares like a thief.

                            You speak of God needing to deserve and earn your trust.

                            That is wrong and not from God.

                            Originally posted by KerimF View Post

                            Jesus is clear about loving/trusting God to no limit; unless you understand His first advice {Matthew 22:37}
                            You can love God like that only if you obey everything He says.

                            Originally posted by KerimF View Post

                            much like expressing loyalty towards a powerful cruel king to avoid his wrath (obviously, if this is the case, one has to fear God).
                            To fear God is the beginning of wisdom. It helps one get rid of their sins. You compare God to a cruel king. That is where you sin.


                            Originally posted by KerimF View Post
                            So the way I understand {Matthew 22:37}, 'fear him' means, to me, 'be on guard against whoever' has enough means (and privileges) to deceive/fool me to let me act as a living being looking for survival by following my instincts instead of living God's Love towards all others (guided by the Holy Spirit).
                            God's salvation is near those who fear Him.

                            You preach against that then you preach against God.

                            You don't get to rewrite the Bible, the Bible in which you learned of God in the first place.
                            Originally posted by KerimF View Post
                            In this example and even without adding or subtraction anything to/from the two verses above {Matthew 10:28} and {Matthew 22:37}, we, you and I, got Jesus message differently and I am afraid that no one (nothing) can change this situation
                            So you feel safe that you didn't add or subtract anything from those too scriptures...are you afraid? Is that why you say don't add or subtract? Good, because you should fear adding or subtracting.

                            You feel good about not adding to those two scriptures, but what about the many more that say to fear God?


                            Psalm 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.


                            Psalm 25:14 The LORD confides in those who fear him; he makes his covenant known to them.

                            Acts 10:2 He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly.

                            Romans 3:18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”


                            The thief on the cross had lifesaving fear.

                            Luke 23:40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence?


                            No such teaching in the Bible as your 'devil fearing' gospel.
                            Oh how I love the Word of God!

                            Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by thborn View Post
                              Nine months ago I was sort of Roman Catholic. After joining TOL, thanks to some of the folks here, I quickly became a Protestant, then a Calvinist Protestant. Although, those labels are worldly and not scriptural. I don’t like ‘em.

                              Over the past few months I have been able so read Scripture as never before…and with much fewer preconceptions than the average person.

                              There is remarkable consistency across Scripture. Where there are tensions, they tend to be the same tensions. Some of these consistencies: again and again, the reader is exhorted to believe. Again and again, the reader is told that a believer must pass the test. Again and again, the reader is assured that those who have believed are saved. Unless I have been excluded from being able to see the truth, this has to equal the proven saved doctrine when you put it together.

                              Determinism is also very apparent in Scripture. Again and again, true believers are referred to as chosen. Romans says it does not depend on a man’s will or desire, but on God’s mercy. It took me a while to except determinism…I tried to see Romans as referring to groups instead of individuals. But it didn’t work. Reading it with a heart open to God’s will and to the concept that God can be love and also a wrathful being, I could not force my will upon this Scripture passage. Romans 9 to 11 is about groups and individuals. We probably don’t have to be dogmatic about the particulars…in fact Paul warns us that we can’t understand the mind of God at the end of this discourse.

                              But I came to see that I could give up all my ideas about the existence of free will when it comes to essential acts, and even anything good that anyone does. That doesn’t mean we have to view ourselves as puppets. We don’t feel grace effortlessly moving our limbs, and we don’t make tough decisions without heartache. Even though any eternally meaningful act or decision is God acting, normally we still feel the pain or joy of the whole process as if we had done it ourselves. This still serves as an explanation of how God cleanses for himself a people for himself. It not might make perfect sense to me, but might not my ability to understand true justice and reality be impaired in this world?

                              Determinism gives us a great weapon in debate against secular humanists. Humanists tend to argue, often somewhat convincingly, that people are mostly good, and that we it is wrong or unkind to view other people as not saved as long as they are an overall nice person. But determinism can show us how big the gap is…and that it is ultimately kinder to preach the truth that many such nice people are far from saved, that if the conditions were just changed a little bit they might act very differently and kill to stay alive. That whole “nice” image might be much more of an illusion than we realize…just because people seem to get along doesn’t they mean they aren’t thinking about their material wants 75 percent of the time, and even when they are being kind it might just be largely because it makes them feel good or that the power to better themselves lies with themselves.

                              I don’t have all the answers…but aren’t these essential and basic truths that anyone who has ears to hear can accept? Anyone who doesn’t cherry pick certain verses from here and there?
                              God, having foreknowledge, foreknows who will, by their God given free will, chose to believe.

                              God chooses those who He foreknows will believe.
                              "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

                              "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

                              Pro scripture = Protestant

                              Comment

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