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  • Why a Sacrifice if Calvinism is True?

    Calvinism says that God would rather go through all the trouble of creating those whom He has elected to first live a life of sin on Earth before they could be saved and be with Him. He could have just created them to be with Him from the beginning as He did the angels. If you deny that He has the ability to do this, then you deny that He has all power. If He were to do this rather than predestine them to sin, He would not have to send HIs son to die for them. So according to Calvinism, God would prefer to watch His son die a miserable death for an elect group that He predestined to live on Earth and sin rather than just create the elect to be with Him from the get go. Why would He go through having to watch His son be tortured and murdered when in His Sovereignty, He could just have just skipped all this devastation?
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  • #2
    Originally posted by Poly View Post
    Calvinism says that God would rather go through all the trouble of creating those whom He has elected to first live a life of sin on Earth before they could be saved and be with Him. He could have just created them to be with Him from the beginning as He did the angels. If you deny that He has the ability to do this, then you deny that He has all power. If He were to do this rather than predestine them to sin, He would not have to send HIs son to die for them. So according to Calvinism, God would prefer to watch His son die a miserable death for an elect group that He predestined to live on Earth and sin rather than just create the elect to be with Him from the get go. Why would He go through having to watch His son be tortured and murdered when in His Sovereignty, He could just have just skipped all this devastation?
    Good post.

    Also, from what do those predestined to avoid suffering eternal torment--the elect--need to be saved? Obviously they do not need to be saved from suffering eternal torment, for, by predestination, they were never in danger of it in the first place. And, since the elect were predestined to sin, to say that the elect need to be saved from their sin would seem to be to say that the elect need to be saved from predestination--that the elect need to be saved from God's will.

    And, in what sense could Calvinism ever meaningfully say that the non-elect--the "eternally reprobate"--need to be saved from anything? For, according to Calvinism, by predestinated necessity, the "eternally reprobate" actually (like the elect) need to sin, and actually (unlike the elect) need to suffer eternal torment.

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    • #3
      I believe the following is what God predestined for all mankind.

      heir kinds. And God saw that it was good.

      "Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

      So God created mankind in his own image,

      in the image of God he created them;

      male and female he created them.

      God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

      Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so" (Gen. 1:26-30).

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Poly View Post
        Calvinism says that God would rather go through all the trouble of creating those whom He has elected to first live a life of sin on Earth before they could be saved and be with Him. He could have just created them to be with Him from the beginning as He did the angels. If you deny that He has the ability to do this, then you deny that He has all power. If He were to do this rather than predestine them to sin, He would not have to send HIs son to die for them. So according to Calvinism, God would prefer to watch His son die a miserable death for an elect group that He predestined to live on Earth and sin rather than just create the elect to be with Him from the get go. Why would He go through having to watch His son be tortured and murdered when in His Sovereignty, He could just have just skipped all this devastation?

        Do you know of any one who became a Calvinist by studying the Bible?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Poly View Post
          Why would He go through having to watch His son be tortured and murdered when in His Sovereignty, He could just have just skipped all this devastation?
          It's a great question. A related one is: why would the Messiah talk of the repudiation of sacrifice if it was his role to be such a sacrifice?

          But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
          Matthew 9:13

          But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
          Matthew 12:7

          For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings.
          Hosea 6:6

          Speaking of Ephraim and Judah (Hosea 5:14)

          After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
          Hosea 6:2

          Validation of the crucifixion in prophecy:

          And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
          Luke 24:46

          How is the whoredom of Ephraim (Hosea 5:3) connected to the crucifixion?

          And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
          Revelation 17:1

          Speaking of Ephraim as becoming multitudes/nations (Genesis 48:14-19)

          And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
          Genesis 48:19

          And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
          Revelation 17:15

          But not the blood of Jesus:

          And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
          Revelation 17:6

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by blackbirdking View Post


            Do you know of any one who became a Calvinist by studying the Bible?
            That's really a great rhetorical question! Makes you wonder. Do you think Calvin had a Bible with a broken spine, that most of the New Testament pages fell out of? This would explain a lot, you know.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by blackbirdking View Post
              Do you know of any one who became a Calvinist by studying the Bible?
              Originally posted by WonderfulLordJesus View Post
              That's really a great rhetorical question! Makes you wonder. Do you think Calvin had a Bible with a broken spine, that most of the New Testament pages fell out of? This would explain a lot, you know.
              I think Calvin became a Calvinist by studying Augustine of Hippo, not from studying the Bible.
              Learn to read what is written.

              _____
              The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
              ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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              • #8
                Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                I think Calvin became a Calvinist by studying Augustine of Hippo, not from studying the Bible.
                How right you are. Calvin was joined at Hippo's hip. To my mind, Calvinists, Roman Catholics, not just Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons, et al, are simply cults. The primary earmark of a "Christian" cult is the teachings of some man or woman at the center that has added to or taken away from scripture, changed sound doctrine, perverted doctrine. This is textbook cult, to separate one's self by private interpretations, contradictory interpretations and extra-Biblical so-called revelations, actually a clever marketing device of cults, as where else can you get their bent doctrines? If they can suck you in, they have a product exclusive. It's all about control and power over men, united in some deception.

                Think about it. No denomination would have a product exclusive if all taught the plain truth of scripture, hence all churches would have to compete, actually no reason for denominations, at all, if there were a Holy Spirit understanding of scripture truths, if there were the unity of scripture truth, alone. (If there weren't the reality of tares, would add...) I don't even listen to any preacher/teacher of -ists and -isms, will only listen to a Bible teacher that always teaches the truth, as honest best they are led to by the Holy Spirit, and only from the harmonious word of God of scripture, Jesus Christ at the center, always at the center, not man, their proof the whole Bible context of scripture they can demonstrate: no contradictions, period. As soon as somebody says they are of this or that man or woman's -ism or -ist, well, have a nice day. We don't really have anything to talk about. 1 Corinthians 1:11-13.

                I've found this very important, in terms of Bible teachers, as you can only be reared in truth from a Jesus Christ centered teacher of whole Bible context, harmony of scripture. Otherwise, you're not only being lied to, like the blind leading the blind, but you're simply wasting your time on perverted half truths, just like the devil did in the Garden. There is much leaven in the Christendom lump to beware of. The devil is, above all, religious, and, what do you know, comes as an angel of light. One of the devil's primary targets is to pervert the congregations. People should learn the Matthew 13 parables well, how the Lord Jesus speaks of a body of Christ becoming, as if, a leaven, sin bloated monster, that evil flocks to. You'll hear a lot of truth from the devil, poisoned truth, partial truth. Any fool could tell you that you can't simply lie all the time to people and be credible.

                The devil really looks good in a lot of pulpits, often has him a pretty good tailor. LOL! (And you can always tell somebody has to be good, if they smile a lot.) On the other hand, I did used to be a Calvinist, when it came to blue jeans.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by WonderfulLordJesus View Post
                  The primary earmark of a "Christian" cult is the teachings of some man or woman at the center that has added to or taken away from scripture, changed sound doctrine, perverted doctrine. This is textbook cult, to separate one's self by private interpretations, contradictory interpretations and extra-Biblical so-called revelations, actually a clever marketing device of cults, as where else can you get their bent doctrines? If they can suck you in, they have a product exclusive. It's all about control and power over men, united in some deception.
                  That's a good description of a cult.

                  "of some man or woman at the center"

                  And when he had found [Paul], he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
                  Acts 11:26

                  "changed sound doctrine, perverted doctrine"

                  For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
                  Galatians 5:14

                  Then one of them, [which was] a lawyer, asked [him a question], tempting him, and saying,
                  Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
                  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
                  This is the first and great commandment.
                  And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
                  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
                  Matthew 22:35-40

                  Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
                  1 Corinthians 7:19

                  And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their Elohim.
                  And Elohim said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
                  This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
                  Genesis 17:8-10

                  "contradictory interpretations"

                  Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
                  Ephesians 6:16

                  He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth [shall be thy] shield and buckler.
                  Psalms 91:4

                  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
                  For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
                  Romans 1:26-27

                  And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith YHWH.
                  As for me, this [is] my covenant with them, saith YHWH; My spirit that [is] upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith YHWH, from henceforth and for ever.
                  Isaiah 59:20-21

                  "It's all about control and power over men, united in some deception"

                  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
                  Galatians 1:8

                  But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.
                  2 Corinthians 12:16

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Poly View Post
                    Calvinism says that God would rather go through all the trouble of creating those whom He has elected to first live a life of sin on Earth before they could be saved and be with Him. He could have just created them to be with Him from the beginning as He did the angels. If you deny that He has the ability to do this, then you deny that He has all power. If He were to do this rather than predestine them to sin, He would not have to send HIs son to die for them. So according to Calvinism, God would prefer to watch His son die a miserable death for an elect group that He predestined to live on Earth and sin rather than just create the elect to be with Him from the get go. Why would He go through having to watch His son be tortured and murdered when in His Sovereignty, He could just have just skipped all this devastation?
                    I'm not a Calvinist, but it does say in Romans 8:29 that those God foreknew He also predestined, justified and glorified. I think there could be a place for free will, but it seems to me that a lot of what's at the heart of Calvinism is proved true by scripture.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by thborn View Post

                      I'm not a Calvinist, but it does say in Romans 8:29 that those God foreknew He also predestined, justified and glorified. I think there could be a place for free will, but it seems to me that a lot of what's at the heart of Calvinism is proved true by scripture.
                      In matters like Calvinist predestination, I've always thought it's good for people to learn to read, before deciding what they believe. Scripture states what predestination is:

                      Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

                      Predestination is for the believer to be conformed to the image of Christ, what predestination means clearly stated. Was this plan in place, before creation? Yes, the Lord Jesus slain from the foundation of the world, Revelation 13:8. Does God know who WILL come to Him? I think so, as God, obviously, is omniscient, can see into the future, prophecy proves, Isaiah 46:10. The plan for redemption was in place, predestined.

                      On the other hand, there is no scripture doctrine one is born damned or saved: this predestination a lie, contradicting some of the simplest, clear scripture. Everybody has the "job" to believe, or not, accept or reject the gospel. Calvinist predestination is one of the most monstrous, evil and perverse doctrines on the planet, making God a monster that damns babies, that makes a robotic man of no will, of no recourse, and, what, idiotically preaches to the hopelessly damned, that could not receive Christ, if they tried? Some very evil and stupid mad came up with that, did not find this in the Holy Bible! I don't know the words to state the absurdity of this, in light of the longsuffering God that contended with man, from the beginning, to choose right, a God that did what, spent thousands of years instructing men in obedience man is unable to attain to? I suppose there is a word for that idea, other than stupid: nuts.

                      In any event, I have a challenge for you. If you can slowly read and think about the following verses, come back and again claim anybody is born damned of God, claim that people have no choices, that people are not instrumental in their salvation, by choosing or rejecting God, the Lord Jesus, I challenge you to read these verses and make such a claim that Calvinism appears true, ever again. Calvinist predestination is evil claptrap:

                      1 Kings 18:21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

                      Deuteronomy 11:26-29 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

                      Deuteronomy 30:19-20 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

                      Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

                      John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

                      John 3:14-16 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

                      John 5:39-40 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

                      1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

                      John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

                      Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

                      Acts 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

                      Acts 17:30-31 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

                      2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

                      John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

                      1 Timothy 2:1-4 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

                      1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all man, specially of those that believe.

                      Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

                      Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


                      You know, scripture states that Holy, Holy, Holy God does not even tempt any man to evil, James 1:13. Yet we have the idiot Calvinist claiming He doesn't tempt any man to evil, rather outright creates evil men? Puhleeze...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by WonderfulLordJesus View Post

                        In matters like Calvinist predestination, I've always thought it's good for people to learn to read, before deciding what they believe. Scripture states what predestination is:

                        Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

                        Predestination is for the believer to be conformed to the image of Christ, what predestination means clearly stated. Was this plan in place, before creation? Yes, the Lord Jesus slain from the foundation of the world, Revelation 13:8. Does God know who WILL come to Him? I think so, as God, obviously, is omniscient, can see into the future, prophecy proves, Isaiah 46:10. The plan for redemption was in place, predestined.

                        On the other hand, there is no scripture doctrine one is born damned or saved: this predestination a lie, contradicting some of the simplest, clear scripture. Everybody has the "job" to believe, or not, accept or reject the gospel. Calvinist predestination is one of the most monstrous, evil and perverse doctrines on the planet, making God a monster that damns babies, that makes a robotic man of no will, of no recourse, and, what, idiotically preaches to the hopelessly damned, that could not receive Christ, if they tried? Some very evil and stupid mad came up with that, did not find this in the Holy Bible! I don't know the words to state the absurdity of this, in light of the longsuffering God that contended with man, from the beginning, to choose right, a God that did what, spent thousands of years instructing men in obedience man is unable to attain to? I suppose there is a word for that idea, other than stupid: nuts.

                        In any event, I have a challenge for you. If you can slowly read and think about the following verses, come back and again claim anybody is born damned of God, claim that people have no choices, that people are not instrumental in their salvation, by choosing or rejecting God, the Lord Jesus, I challenge you to read these verses and make such a claim that Calvinism appears true, ever again. Calvinist predestination is evil claptrap:

                        1 Kings 18:21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

                        Deuteronomy 11:26-29 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

                        Deuteronomy 30:19-20 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

                        Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

                        John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

                        John 3:14-16 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

                        John 5:39-40 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

                        1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

                        John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

                        Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

                        Acts 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

                        Acts 17:30-31 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

                        2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

                        John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

                        1 Timothy 2:1-4 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

                        1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all man, specially of those that believe.

                        Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

                        Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


                        You know, scripture states that Holy, Holy, Holy God does not even tempt any man to evil, James 1:13. Yet we have the idiot Calvinist claiming He doesn't tempt any man to evil, rather outright creates evil men? Puhleeze...
                        That is an excellent post!

                        Calvinists and even those who don't call themselves "Calvinist" but believe Calvinist doctrine always seem to be ignorant of the scriptures as a whole. They read a single sentence or two here or there and decide that the entire bible should be understood through the lens of that one sentence and never consider that it aught to be the other way around.

                        The fact is, as you have shown so compellingly, that if Calvinistic predestination is true then the bible contradicts itself all over the place. What then is Paul talking about in Romans 8::29-30?

                        Well, without getting to much into details, the answer is simply that any time the bible talks about people being predestined, whether its Paul speaking or otherwise, it is talking in terms of groups, not specific individuals. So, with respect to Romans 8:29-30, Paul is speaking about the Body of Christ. God not only foreknew but predestined that there would be a Body of Christ and has also predestined that anyone found to be a member of it will be glorified. Indeed, anyone found to be a member of the Body of Christ HAS BEEN glorified because Christ has been glorified and we are in Him.
                        `
                        Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
                        7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
                        13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

                        II Thessalonians 1:11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
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                        "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Clete View Post

                          That is an excellent post!

                          Calvinists and even those who don't call themselves "Calvinist" but believe Calvinist doctrine always seem to be ignorant of the scriptures as a whole. They read a single sentence or two here or there and decide that the entire bible should be understood through the lens of that one sentence and never consider that it aught to be the other way around.

                          The fact is, as you have shown so compellingly, that if Calvinistic predestination is true then the bible contradicts itself all over the place. What then is Paul talking about in Romans 8::29-30?

                          Well, without getting to much into details, the answer is simply that any time the bible talks about people being predestined, whether its Paul speaking or otherwise, it is talking in terms of groups, not specific individuals. So, with respect to Romans 8:29-30, Paul is speaking about the Body of Christ. God not only foreknew but predestined that there would be a Body of Christ and has also predestined that anyone found to be a member of it will be glorified. Indeed, anyone found to be a member of the Body of Christ HAS BEEN glorified because Christ has been glorified and we are in Him.
                          `
                          Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
                          7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
                          13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

                          II Thessalonians 1:11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
                          Thank you. That's a great way you put it, predestination referring to groups, wish I'd thought of that turn of the phrase, but the plan for those in Christ predestined, from salvation to glorification. Yes, it's all about the plan for believers having always been in place, we could likewise say the plan for unbelievers, but impossible to be with respect to the individual, as you point out, or one has thrown out, made God a liar, of a lot of very plain scripture.

                          Anybody of some knowledge of Bible study knows that context must always be examined, or there's that saying, otherwise, we have pretext. Error. What I fear many don't realize, though, is that there is a whole Bible context, not simply passage context, which must be taken into account in all doctrine, such that there are no contradictory doctrines. But this doesn't seem to matter to those cultish, with their -ists and -isms of man, as they've chosen the doctrines of man, over the doctrines of God.

                          Most often, the cultist is only angered by God's truth. I have literally seen Calvinists angry at that scripture we posted. You give them a whole page of scripture or more, and they angrily say, "You're cherry picking scripture!", this despite you may as well have given them the whole cherry tree! They are somehow emotionally attached to their monster god. I came to the conclusion at the center of it all, like all cults, there’s the vanity of being the chosen, superior few, Calvinists in love with the idea they were the cat’s meow, even before the womb, everybody else rabble. They can hold their noses extra high, in all Christendom. It’s sort of Nazi, when you think about it, should say very Nazi.

                          In any event, you're going to generally find they so believe what they want to believe (if they're not wittingly Satanic tares, some) that they reject clear scripture that contradicts everything they claim. I do have a difficulty with such so-called believers, as to how they have the Holy Spirit and are led into lies, at least those holding to such nonsense for life, for decades? Has the Holy Spirit failed, or are they not of the Spirit? (That is a rhetorical question.) All truth means all truth: has God's promise failed these people? I reject the notion God has failed, out of the gate, re:

                          John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

                          In any event, I say beware all liars, and it doesn't matter why, just be very wary, folks. Contradicting Almighty God is a huge problem, to my mind. Put it this way: anybody so deceptive could enjoy tea with Satan. John 8:44. On the other hand, let’s not be all negative. I don’t question the proven humanity of your TULIP Calvinist: they are much more subtle than the beasts of the field. Genesis 3:1.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by blackbirdking View Post
                            Do you know of any one who became a Calvinist by studying the Bible?
                            Ummm, Calvin?
                            I Champion GOD’s holiness:
                            - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                            - All evil is creature-created.

                            I Champion Our Free will:
                            - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by WonderfulLordJesus View Post
                              ...the plain truth of scripture...
                              usually means merely "the way I interpret the scripture from my understanding." People seldom take the time to analyze by what authority their stated plain meaning has such weight over other interpretations and just assume of course what I've decided is right must be right.


                              The flim flam of exegesis is that for anyone to get the meaning of a verse from the verse without any input from their mindset and unfiltered by existing ideas is on the order of Paul's conversion as a bright light and hearing GOD's voice. Every interpretation of a verse is eisegesis, the fitting of the verse into previously accepted definitions.
                              I Champion GOD’s holiness:
                              - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                              - All evil is creature-created.

                              I Champion Our Free will:
                              - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

                              Comment

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