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SHOULD THE CHURCH TODAY BE CALLED NEW TESTAMENT

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  • #31
    Originally posted by DougE View Post

    I will grant you that there is a correlation between a testament and a covenant, but the point I was making was the testament was fulfilled by the death of Christ as testator according to Hebrews 9:15. Christ also shed his blood for the new testament and Hebrews 9 speaks of the blood.

    It is interesting that in Hebrews he is mediator which is a go between between two parties and a covenant would be an agreement between two parties....I would have to study this but wasn't some of the covenants confirmed by a sacrifice between God and the other party?

    The other point was the new covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34 Ezekiel 36:24-28) has not yet been fulfilled unto Israel yet so saying Christ fulfilled the covenant would be technically inaccurate.

    What you guys are calling a "testament" is what we today would call a "will", as in a "last will and testament". You'd have to go to law school to find anyone picking nits over the meaning of something so common and easy to understand.

    As for covenants being between two parties, it would be good to remember that Abraham is the father of both those saved under law and those saved apart from the law (Romans 4:1-25). The reason this is so is because God had two covenants with Abraham, the first being initiated in Genesis 15 in which Abraham (Abram at the time) had no requirement because he wasn't even conscious when God passed between the cut sacrifices. The second being that of circumcision which came in Genesis 17 in which, of course, there was the requirement of being circumcised and then later the requirement to following the Law of Moses, of which circumcision is a symbol. Thus Abraham is the father of the whole household of faith which includes two groups under two covenants, those saved by works (James 2:21) and those saved apart from works (Romans 4:5), aka the circumcision and the uncircumcision (Galatians 2:7), aka Israel and the Gentiles.

    The division of these two groups is the primary division between what is commonly called the Old and the New Testament. It is not the same as the difference between the Old Covenant vs the New Covenant which Jesus talked about in the gospels. That New Covenant was still with Israel and was still under and within the context of Israek, circumcision and the Law of Moses. It wasn't until God cut off the circumcision (i.e. Israel) for unbelief that the world was left with a covenant of salvation by faith apart from works, the Apostle Paul being the first convert under it since Genesis 17. (I Timothy 1:16)

    Clete
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    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Clete View Post

      What you guys are calling a "testament" is what we today would call a "will", as in a "last will and testament". You'd have to go to law school to find anyone picking nits over the meaning of something so common and easy to understand.

      As for covenants being between two parties, it would be good to remember that Abraham is the father of both those saved under law and those saved apart from the law (Romans 4:1-25). The reason this is so is because God had two covenants with Abraham, the first being initiated in Genesis 15 in which Abraham (Abram at the time) had no requirement because he wasn't even conscious when God passed between the cut sacrifices. The second being that of circumcision which came in Genesis 17 in which, of course, there was the requirement of being circumcised and then later the requirement to following the Law of Moses, of which circumcision is a symbol. Thus Abraham is the father of the whole household of faith which includes two groups under two covenants, those saved by works (James 2:21) and those saved apart from works (Romans 4:5), aka the circumcision and the uncircumcision (Galatians 2:7), aka Israel and the Gentiles.

      The division of these two groups is the primary division between what is commonly called the Old and the New Testament. It is not the same as the difference between the Old Covenant vs the New Covenant which Jesus talked about in the gospels. That New Covenant was still with Israel and was still under and within the context of Israek, circumcision and the Law of Moses. It wasn't until God cut off the circumcision (i.e. Israel) for unbelief that the world was left with a covenant of salvation by faith apart from works, the Apostle Paul being the first convert under it since Genesis 17. (I Timothy 1:16)

      Clete
      While Jesus had his earthly ministry, he was speaking his Last Will and Testament.

      When Jesus died, his Last Will and Testament went into force.

      Since Jesus is God and is still alive, it is also a Covenant.


      When Jesus walked the earth he let us know HOW to be an HEIR of his Last Will and Testament.

      He told how to be an heir, and he explained the conditions of the inheritance, and he explained what the inheritance is.


      It is a Last Will and Testament because Jesus the Man;

      and it is a Covenant because Jesus is God.


      Paul could not ever come and give another testament or covenant.

      There is only ONE and Paul was a minister of it.

      Oh how I love the Word of God!

      Do not just read the word do it.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by DougE View Post

        I will grant you that there is a correlation between a testament and a covenant, but the point I was making was the testament was fulfilled by the death of Christ as testator according to Hebrews 9:15. Christ also shed his blood for the new testament and Hebrews 9 speaks of the blood.

        It is interesting that in Hebrews he is mediator which is a go between between two parties and a covenant would be an agreement between two parties....I would have to study this but wasn't some of the covenants confirmed by a sacrifice between God and the other party?

        The other point was the new covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34 Ezekiel 36:24-28) has not yet been fulfilled unto Israel yet so saying Christ fulfilled the covenant would be technically inaccurate.

        There is only one Testament, which is the one New Covenant.

        Everyone is saved the same way, Jews and Gentiles.

        Anyone can be an heir according to what Jesus says how to be an heir...humble yourself as a child is about resigning yourself to do whatever Jesus says to do...believing in Jesus...repenting of your sins and have a forgiving heart.

        That is for THE WORLD, WHOMEVER, ALL, EVERYONE.


        John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


        John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's only begotten Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

        John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.
        Oh how I love the Word of God!

        Do not just read the word do it.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by God's Truth View Post

          While Jesus had his earthly ministry, he was speaking his Last Will and Testament.

          When Jesus died, his Last Will and Testament went into force.

          Since Jesus is God and is still alive, it is also a Covenant.


          When Jesus walked the earth he let us know HOW to be an HEIR of his Last Will and Testament.

          He told how to be an heir, and he explained the conditions of the inheritance, and he explained what the inheritance is.


          It is a Last Will and Testament because Jesus the Man;

          and it is a Covenant because Jesus is God.


          Paul could not ever come and give another testament or covenant.

          There is only ONE and Paul was a minister of it.
          Saying it doesn't make it so.

          Unless your God....

          Galatians 2:7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.

          But then, by all means, don't allow the bible to have anything do to with your doctrine!
          sigpic
          "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Clete View Post

            Saying it doesn't make it so.

            Unless your God....

            Galatians 2:7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.

            But then, by all means, don't allow the bible to have anything do to with your doctrine!
            Those scriptures PROVE YOU WRONG.

            Do you know who Barnabas is?

            Oh how I love the Word of God!

            Do not just read the word do it.

            Comment

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