Conservatives Against Liberty

[Gary K]

God created the institution of government for a specific purpose, therefore the institution in and of itself cannot be corrupt. An immoral nation (a corrupt people) are responsible for the corruption in government by the people they choose. If people who look to the Bible for answers simply just followed the commands of God and "select out of all the people able men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain" (Exodus 18:21) and held those elected officials to those standards, the corruption would disappear. Regarding the size of government: a moral nation only needs a "limited government", it's when they step away from biblical directives that it becomes huge and out of control.



While God did create a theocracy in ancient Israel, that doesn't mean that His institution of civil government wasn't used throughout the rest of the world. Whether or not those governments chose to do good or evil, was dependent upon the people who they chose as their rulers.



That's the key to a nation that will be prosperous, healthy and happy: Whether or not God is put at the center of their lives within the 3 institutions that God created for the governance of man: the family, the Church and civil government.

Hence the reason Libertarianism has never worked and never will work: God is left out.

The very word civil eliminates God. So does the related word civic. And God never designed Israel to be separate from Himself.

Bouvier's Law Dictionary, Revised 6th Ed (1856) (bouvier)
CIVIL. This word has various significations. 1. It is used in
contradistinction to barbarous or savage, to indicate a state of society
reduced to order and regular government; thus we speak of civil life, civil
society, civil government, and civil liberty
2. It is sometimes used in contradistinction to criminal, to indicate
the private rights and remedies of men, as members of the community, in
contrast to those which are public and relate to the government; thus we
speak of civil process and criminal process, civil jurisdiction and criminal
jurisdiction.
3. It is also used in contradistinction to military or ecclesiastical,
to natural or foreign; thus we speak of a civil station, as opposed to a
military or ecclesiastical station, a civil death as opposed to a natural
death; a civil war as opposed to a foreign war. Story on the Const. Sec. 789;

In the nation of Israel, until they chose to reject God as the head of their government, the priests settled all disputes and executed judgement between individuals. In other words, the power of government was vested in ecclesiastical authority with that authority delegated to the priests by God. This is why high priests like Eli and Samuel were the leaders of Israel. Civil authority was unknown in Israel until the Israelites chose to reject God as the leader of their nation and chose to imitate the nations around them.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

The basis of Libertarianism is completely compatible with the Bible and does not exclude God in any way.

Could you supply some type of Libertarian doctrine that shows that, cuz I'm not seeing it in the Libertarian Party Platform, which is the basis for Libertarianism.

As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty: a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and are not forced to sacrifice their values for the benefit of others.We believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.
Consequently, we defend each person’s right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings.
https://www.lp.org/platform/

You can beat up your straw-man, but that will prove nothing.

The Bible verses that you love to quote do NOT give government the authority to mandate meat inspectors, etc. etc. etc.

We can go to the Bible to see what it says about fraud if you like.
https://www.openbible.info/topics/fraud

In a free society, there would be trusted third parties that would handle the situation quite well. No need for the government monster to invade to save the day. Government is always the last resort.

Yes, righteous civil laws are to be used as a "last resort". Honesty should be used in all transactions and those righteous laws should be sitting at the back of someone's mind who doesn't have that intention. When fraudulent transactions are done, that's when the "last resort" comes into play.

BTW, what "trusted third parties" are you speaking of?

 

[aCultureWarrior]

The very word civil eliminates God.

While the word "civil leader" indicates a government official as opposed to leaders within the Church or the father in a family, if you would like me to drop the word "civil" in the future and use the term the Apostle Paul uses in Romans 13, I'll gladly do so.

1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

 

[Right Divider]

Could you supply some type of Libertarian doctrine that shows that, cuz I'm not seeing it in the Libertarian Party Platform, which is the basis for Libertarianism.

No, it is NOT... where do you get this these weird ideas?

Seriously, no wonder you're so ignorant of what we've been talking about if you think that libertarian philosophy is based on a political party.

We can go to the Bible to see what it says about fraud if you like.
https://www.openbible.info/topics/fraud

God is for honesty... so what? Does'nt prove that He put government in charge of policing everyone's actions at all times.

Yes, righteous civil laws are to be used as a "last resort". Honesty should be used in all transactions and those righteous laws should be sitting at the back of someone's mind who doesn't have that intention. When fraudulent transactions are done, that's when the "last resort" comes into play.

No kidding... that doesn't mean government supervision of so many personal transactions.

BTW, what "trusted third parties" are you speaking of?

The "trusted third parties" that do not exist due to government interference.

 

[The Barbarian]

I have three questions for you:

1. Which laws work better:
A) man's laws
B) God's laws

When man presumes to administer God's laws, that's the greatest evil posssible.

"Because experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of Religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
James Madison Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments

The founders made sure the Constitution banned that kind of evil precisely because they saw what happens when man tries to administer that which is God's.

2. Would it be better for man's laws to be arbitrary, or for man's laws to reflect God's laws?

It would be better for man's law to keep each of us from abusing others, and to leave God's law to God. I notice that whenever man presumes to do for God, what God does not do for Himself, the result is horror and evil.

3. Do you know the difference between theocracy and theonomy?

Yes. In in the former, God rules. (notice that a lot of men have claimed that God rules, but have done whatever they felt like doing). In the latter, men don't bother to make that claim that God is ruling and just enforce whatever religious beliefs they have on everyone else. And always, it ends with men doing as they wish, in unGodly ways.

Theonomy is what see in Iran. And have seen in Waco, Jonestown, and so on.

 

[Stripe]

When man presumes to administer God's laws, that's the greatest evil posssible.

That's not what the Bible says.

God ordered men to carry out His laws.

According to Barbarian, God ordered men to do "the greatest evil possible."

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
BTW, what "trusted third parties" are you speaking of?

The "trusted third parties" that do not exist due to government interference.

The only thing I can think of is arbitrators in civil suits, but they have to follow government guidelines in their rulings too.

 

[Right Divider]

Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
BTW, what "trusted third parties" are you speaking of?

The only thing I can think of is arbitrators in civil suits, but they have to follow government guidelines in their rulings too.

You have SO MANY things to learn.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

You have SO MANY things to learn.

That I do, that I do. How about starting off with some kind of Libertarian doctrine that embraces the Word of God?

Then you could explain what "trusted third parties" means and how they would be involved in cases of fraud.

That should be more than enough for my first 'learning lesson' don't cha think?

 

[Right Divider]

That I do, that I do. How about starting off with some kind of Libertarian doctrine that embraces the Word of God?

First, you need to learn what libertarian means.

Basically, it means voluntary relationships between people and not coerced or forced ones.

Then you could explain what "trusted third parties" means and how they would be involve in cases of fraud.

They would be the meat inspectors and not the government. You know... the other two parties would both voluntarily agree to use them.

That should be more than enough for my first 'learning lesson' don't cha think?

No, you need to start from scratch because you are so far out there.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

First, you need to learn what libertarian means.

Basically, it means voluntary relationships between people and not coerced or forced ones.

What a coincidence, I saw those very words in the Libertarian Party Platform.

https://www.lp.org/platform/

They would be the meat inspectors and not the government. You know... the other two parties would both voluntarily agree to use them.

Actually I don't know. Would the two parties voluntarily agree to use a meat inspector employed by the grocer who sold the customer tainted meat or would the two parties voluntarily agree to use a friend of the customer?

Perhaps someone who knows the statutes involving fraud (i.e. a government arbitrator) would work out better?

No, you need to start from scratch because you are so far out there.

And I want to thank you for helping me learn. For instance, I learned from the first part of your post that the core tenet of Libertarianism is quoted in the Libertarian Party Platform. Without your mentorship I would have never known that.

 

[Gary K]

The basis of Libertarianism is completely compatible with the Bible and does not exclude God in any way.

You can beat up your straw-man, but that will prove nothing.

The Bible verses that you love to quote do NOT give government the authority to mandate meat inspectors, etc. etc. etc.

In a free society, there would be trusted third parties that would handle the situation quite well. No need for the government monster to invade to save the day. Government is always the last resort.

Hmmm.... Leading Libertarians such as Ralph Raico will disagree with you. The following links demonstrate libertarianism's departure from God. In these areas of life libertarianism conflates license with liberty and that is a fatal flaw for any society that wants to exist long term. It's why the Bible condemns licentiousness in no uncertain terms.

https://www.libertarianism.org/publications/essays/gay-rights-libertarian-approach

https://www.libertarianism.org/columns/condition-transgender-women-libertarian-perspectives

https://humanevents.com/2007/01/31/libertarians-on-drugs/

https://www.libertarianism.org/guides/lectures/marriage

 

[Gary K]

While the word "civil leader" indicates a government official as opposed to leaders within the Church or the father in a family, if you would like me to drop the word "civil" in the future and use the term the Apostle Paul uses in Romans 13, I'll gladly do so.

1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

1. You take the quote from Paul outside the context of the Bible. We are to obey God rather than man. When men disagree with God we are to follow God instead of them. Government's power is very limited in that respect. Any time it disagrees with God it loses it's authority.

2. Omitting a single word is not going to change your entire philosophy. All that does is attempt to hide the objectionable aspects of your thinking.

 

[Right Divider]

What a coincidence, I saw those very words in the Libertarian Party Platform.

https://www.lp.org/platform/

So gee whiz... the Libertarian Party agrees with basic libertarian philosophy.... who woulda thunk?

Actually I don't know. Would the two parties voluntarily agree to use a meat inspector employed by the grocer who sold the customer tainted meat or would the two parties voluntarily agree to use a friend of the customer?

It would be an independent third party... I thought that was obvious enough, but ... then again... I'm writing to you.

Perhaps someone who knows the statutes involving fraud (i.e. a government arbitrator) would work out better?

Continually clueless, you are.

And I want to thank you for helping me learn. For instance, I learned from the first part of your post that the core tenet of Libertarianism is quoted in the Libertarian Party Platform. Without your mentorship I would have never known that.

Your sense of humor is as poor as your knowledge of things.

 

[Right Divider]

Hmmm.... Leading Libertarians such as Ralph Raico will disagree with you.

Well then I guess that me and Ralph will have to disagree then, won't we?

The following links demonstrate libertarianism's departure from God. In these areas of life libertarianism conflates license with liberty and that is a fatal flaw for any society that wants to exist long term. It's why the Bible condemns licentiousness in no uncertain terms.

https://www.libertarianism.org/publications/essays/gay-rights-libertarian-approach

https://www.libertarianism.org/columns/condition-transgender-women-libertarian-perspectives

https://humanevents.com/2007/01/31/libertarians-on-drugs/

https://www.libertarianism.org/guides/lectures/marriage

I happen to disagree with some libertarians that feel that way. But I still believe that the basic principles are fully compatible with God and the Bible.

Do unto others... etc. etc. etc.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
While the word "civil leader" indicates a government official as opposed to leaders within the Church or the father in a family, if you would like me to drop the word "civil" in the future and use the term the Apostle Paul uses in Romans 13, I'll gladly do so.

1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

1. You take the quote from Paul outside the context of the Bible. We are to obey God rather than man. When men disagree with God we are to follow God instead of them. Government's power is very limited in that respect. Any time it disagrees with God it loses it's authority.

2. Omitting a single word is not going to change your entire philosophy. All that does is attempt to hide the objectionable aspects of your thinking.

When the Apostle Paul was talking about governing authorities in Romans 13:4 he (per the definition you supplied in an earlier post) was talking about civil government, not the governing authorities of the Church and family:

Bouvier's Law Dictionary, Revised 6th Ed (1856) (bouvier)
CIVIL. This word has various significations. 1. It is used in
contradistinction to barbarous or savage, to indicate a state of society
reduced to order and regular government; thus we speak of civil life, civil
society, civil government, and civil liberty

Of course people of faith are to follow God's Word instead of the word of corrupt men, in this case corrupt civil authorities (Acts 5:29), but that doesn't change why God made civil government (to punish evil and praise those who do good) and what type of people are to be selected as civil leaders: "men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain" (Exodus 18:21)

Government's authority is given by God to deal with people who do evil or engage in certain immoral acts. While that gives civil government a "limited role", it's an invaluable role nevertheless, because without it you'd have chaos and anarchy.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

... I still believe that the basic principles are fully compatible with God and the Bible.

Do unto others... etc. etc. etc.

Giving people a license to sin, which Libertarianism is all about, isn't loving your neighbor as you'd love yourself, hence the reason there is no such thing as a "Libertarian Christian".

 

[Right Divider]

Giving people a license to sin, which Libertarianism is all about, isn't loving your neighbor as you'd love yourself, hence the reason there is no such thing as a "Libertarian Christian".

Lying is a sin... you are a habitual liar.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
Giving people a license to sin, which Libertarianism is all about, isn't loving your neighbor as you'd love yourself, hence the reason there is no such thing as a "Libertarian Christian".

Lying is a sin... you are a habitual liar.

1.4 Personal Relationships
Sexual orientation, preference, gender, or gender identity should have no impact on the government’s treatment of individuals, such as in current marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration, or military service laws. Government does not have the authority to define, promote, license, or restrict personal relationships, regardless of the number of participants. Consenting adults should be free to choose their own sexual practices and personal relationships. Until such time as the government stops its illegitimate practice of marriage licensing, such licenses must be granted to all consenting adults who apply.
https://www.lp.org/platform/

Does not the teachings of God go directly against these things? How can you love God with all of your heart, mind and soul and then love your neighbor as yourself if you don't rebuke people from engaging in immoral behaviors by showing them that God has a better way or use His institution of civil government to punish those that commit crimes against nature and thus in the long run help them?

 

[Right Divider]

Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
Giving people a license to sin, which Libertarianism is all about, isn't loving your neighbor as you'd love yourself, hence the reason there is no such thing as a "Libertarian Christian".

1.4 Personal Relationships
Sexual orientation, preference, gender, or gender identity should have no impact on the government’s treatment of individuals, such as in current marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration, or military service laws. Government does not have the authority to define, promote, license, or restrict personal relationships, regardless of the number of participants. Consenting adults should be free to choose their own sexual practices and personal relationships. Until such time as the government stops its illegitimate practice of marriage licensing, such licenses must be granted to all consenting adults who apply.
https://www.lp.org/platform/

Does not the teachings of God go directly against these things? How can you love God with all of your heart, mind and soul and then love your neighbor as yourself if you don't rebuke people from engaging in immoral behaviors by showing them that God has a better way or use His institution of civil government to punish those that commit crimes against nature and thus in the long run help them?

Continuing to CONFLATE a POLITICAL party with the idea that people should be free to make their own choices.

And, OF COURSE, those choices should be in accordance with God's will.