25% of Dutch people who died in 2017 were euthanized

[glassjester]

This is the slippery slope of "assisted suicide."

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/doctors-induce-twenty-five-percent-of-dutch-deaths/


In 2018, in the Netherlands, 67 people were euthanized due to mental illness!
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/nine-elderly-couples-were-euthanized-in-the-netherlands/


In 2015, 431 people were "assisted" in dying (actually, murdered) without even asking for it.
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/dutch-doctors-killed-431-without-request-2015/

 

[The Horn]

This article is from National Review, a very conservative rag . Therefore, it should be taken with a grain of salt . I seriously doubt 25 % of deaths in the Netherlands are through euthanasia .

 

[glassjester]

This article is from National Review, a very conservative rag . Therefore, it should be taken with a grain if salt . I seriously doubt 25 % of deaths in the Netherlands are through euthanasia .

Their source for that particular statistic was The Guardian. Is The Guardian a conservative rag, too?

 

[Kit the Coyote]

This article is from National Review, a very conservative rag . Therefore, it should be taken with a grain if salt . I seriously doubt 25 % of deaths in the Netherlands are through euthanasia .

I couldn't find numbers for the number of deaths in the Netherlands in 2018 but in 2017 it was 150,414 from all causes. 25% of that is 37,604. So yea not even close.
In 2015 the number of deaths was 147,134 with 25% being 36,784. A long way from 431 which is .003%

https://www.statista.com/statistics/520011/total-number-of-deaths-in-the-netherlands/

 

[Kit the Coyote]

I found the Netherlands government site that tracks the statistics. Unfortunately the PDF file you can download is 83 pages long and all in Dutch. I lucked out and think I found the relevant stats with a little help from Google Translate.

In 2018, the RTE received 6126 reports of euthanasia.
That is 4.0% of the total number of people in the Netherlands in 2018
deceased (153,328). In 2017, the RTE received 6,585 reports, either
4.4% of the total death rate (150,027). It is the first time since
years that the number of reports has fallen compared to the year
therefor.

 

[Stripe]

This article is from National Review, a very conservative rag . Therefore, it should be taken with a grain if salt . I seriously doubt 25 % of deaths in the Netherlands are through euthanasia .

This post is from The Horn, so is assuredly nothing but outright lies and logical fallacies.

 

[glassjester]

A long way from 431 which is .003%

431 was the number of people euthanized without requesting it. Not the total number euthanized.

 

[Kit the Coyote]

431 was the number of people euthanized without requesting it. Not the total number euthanized.

Yes got that from the additional research and information I found, the figure for total is around 4% and has declined in the past year after a few years of increases.

 

[ok doser]

Direct quote from the Guardian article:

Also in 2017, some 1,900 Dutch people killed themselves, while the number of people who died under palliative sedation – in theory, succumbing to their illness while cocooned from physical discomfort, but in practice often dying of dehydration while unconscious – hit an astonishing 32,000. Altogether, well over a quarter of all deaths in 2017 in the Netherlands were induced.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/20...nasia-gone-too-far-netherlands-assisted-dying

 

[Kit the Coyote]

Direct quote from the Guardian article:

Interesting, palliative sedation is not assisted suicide, seemingly unhappy with the official government figures for euthanasia the Guardian has decided to move the goalposts to reach the figure they want.

 

[Stripe]

Palliative sedation is not assisted suicide.

Because you say so?

If a person is not dying and they are starved to death, that is murder.

seemingly unhappy with the official government figures for euthanasia the Guardian has decided to move the goalposts to reach the figure they want.

Seemingly unhappy with the Guardian article, Kit has ignored most of it.

 

[Kit the Coyote]

Because you say so?

If a person is not dying and they are starved to death, that is murder.



Seemingly unhappy with the Guardian article, Kit has ignored most of it.

I simply looked up what palliative sedation is. It is only applied to patients who are dying and all other means of pain and symptom control are exhausted. It is part of end of life hospice care. Now if it is being applied incorrectly and people are dying little earlier than they would have you can make a medical malpractice argument out of it but I think you need to decide what you are arguing against as palliative sedation is one of the ALTERNATIVES to euthanasia, one of the few that can address the pain and suffering issue.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palliative_sedation

 

[ok doser]

Kit - did you bother reading either the natrev piece or the guardian piece?

 

[ok doser]

from the natrev piece:

As I have written here before, many more people are killed in the Netherlands by “terminal sedation”–a slow motion euthanasia wherein patients not in the active stage of dying are put into artificial comas and denied all sustenance until they dehydrate to death–than die by lethal jabs. (Terminal sedation should never be confused with the proper practice of “palliative sedation,” which eases a dying patient’s symptoms while not intentionally causing death.)

 

[ok doser]

which was directly taken from the Guardian piece:

Also in 2017, some 1,900 Dutch people killed themselves, while the number of people who died under palliative sedation – in theory, succumbing to their illness while cocooned from physical discomfort, but in practice often dying of dehydration while unconscious – hit an astonishing 32,000. Altogether, well over a quarter of all deaths in 2017 in the Netherlands were induced.

 

[Kit the Coyote]

Well after reading the entry on the sedation I can see why hydration and sustenance is a problem. It seems many patients and their families don't always want to add onto the patient's final days with feeding tubes down the patient's throats. Thus maintaining hydration and sustenance is problematic. I would agree that if people are dying due to side effects of the treatment before the disease that his killing them then the protocols should be reviewed and debated. And as Stripe is implying people who are not dying are being subjected to an 'end of life' treatment regimen then you can raise the murder word.

But I know if I were dying and had a choice of spending my last few days and hours in intense suffering or peacefully sleeping though that period and saving my loved ones the agony of watching that suffering, I know what I would want even if complications of the treatment might bring that end a few hours earlier.

It just seems to me that euthanasia and this are being lumped together when they are different things so we can raise the numbers. That's all I have to say on it. Carry on.

 

[Stripe]

It is only applied to patients who are dying and all other means of pain and symptom control are exhausted.

No, it's not.

 

[Stripe]

Stripe is implying people who are not dying are being subjected to an 'end of life' treatment regimen.

It's common knowledge that this sort of thing goes on all the time. People tend to wave their hands and use words — such as "palliative" — that do not describe the facts.

If I were dying and had a choice of spending my last few days and hours in intense suffering or peacefully sleeping though that period...

A choice you will never be presented with, unless it is from someone looking to manipulate you into taking a shortcut to hell.

 

[glassjester]

"Watch carefully, Mother, when you will have patients a prey to violent pains; don’t leave near them any medicines that are poisonous. I assure you, it needs only a second when one suffers intensely to lose one’s reason."

St. Therese of Lisieux

 

[Kit the Coyote]

No, it's not.

Then it is being misapplied. By all means, bring charges of murder and malpractice.