The Religion of the United States of America

[genuineoriginal]

This is about the intent of the founders. Madison and Jefferson are the two founders most responsible for the Bill of Rights. Madison pointed out that the First Amendment was taken from Virginia's Statutes, written by Jefferson.

It was the intent of the founders that religious freedom encompassed all faiths and even those with no faith at all.

You could also refer to Madison's Detached Memoranda.
Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion & Govt in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history. (See the cases in which negatives were put by J. M. on two bills passd by Congs and his signature withheld from another. See also attempt in Kentucky for example, where it was proposed to exempt Houses of Worship from taxes.
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendI_religions64.html

We've already fallen short of the intent of the founders to separate Church and state.

The intent was to prevent the Federal Government from interfering in religious organizations and religious practices.
The intent was never to protect the Federal Government from "the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies".

 

[genuineoriginal]

Hmm.

A person in government can support religion.

So long as it's not in one's official capacity.

The Bill of Rights is a list of restrictions on the Federal Government, not restrictions on the citizens nor restrictions on the States.

The Bill of Rights says that the Federal Congress shall make no law regarding religion.
The Bill of Rights says that the States retain the powers that are not granted to the Federal Government.

Each of the States has the power to declare an official religion of that State, but the Federal Government is to remain free of an official religion.

 

[Jacob]

The Bill of Rights is a list of restrictions on the Federal Government, not restrictions on the citizens nor restrictions on the States.

The Bill of Rights says that the Federal Congress shall make no law regarding religion.
The Bill of Rights says that the States retain the powers that are not granted to the Federal Government.

Each of the States has the power to declare an official religion of that State, but the Federal Government is to remain free of an official religion.

It sounds like if a state can have an official religion is a question.

 

[The Horn]

Christianity was pretty much the only religion in America in the founder's day . But the founders believed that every America should have the right to follow any religion, as well as the right not to follow any religion at all .
But unfortunately, extremist Christians in America stubbornly refuse to acknowledge this fact . They say "America is a Christian nation founded on Christianity and the bible ".
Today, America is the most religiously diverse nation in world history . The majority is still Christian , but Christians of virtually every denomination . There are also millions of Americans who follow Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and who knows how many other more obscure faiths .
Not to mention millions of atheists and agnostics . There are now more atheists in America than there were people at the time of our founding . As well as a growing number of people known as the "nones" , or people who do not follow any religion at all but are not necessarily atheists .
The Christian majority has been rapidly shrinking in the past two decades or so , and more and more people are abandoning Christianity because they no longer believe in it .
If the founders could somehow come back today , they would be overjoyed to see this religious diversity . When Jews began to settle in America at an increased rate long ago ( there had been a small number for many years ) , George Washington welcomed them with open arms , saying that our government would "give to bigotry no sanction ". This was a pretty radical thing to do in the late 18th century .
The early 19th century conflict with the Barbary pirates in north Africa was not a war against Islam per se . It was a war against piracy and to protect US citizens who were on ships in the mediterranean . The founders would have had absolutely no problem with peaceful, law-abiding Muslims settling in America , but it's only n recent years that this has happened .

 

[The Barbarian]

The Bill of Rights is a list of restrictions on the Federal Government, not restrictions on the citizens nor restrictions on the States.

Right. A citizen is entirely free as long as he is not acting in a govermental capacity. Then it's the government.

The Bill of Rights says that the Federal Congress shall make no law regarding religion.
The Bill of Rights says that the States retain the powers that are not granted to the Federal Government.

But the 14th Amendment required all states to also abide by the Bill of Rights. Before that, states could legally have established religion.

The Due Process Clause prohibits state and local governments from depriving persons of life, liberty, or property without a fair procedure. The Supreme Court has ruled this clause makes most of the Bill of Rights as applicable to the states as it is to the federal government, as well as to recognize substantive and procedural requirements that state laws must satisfy. The Equal Protection Clause requires each state to provide equal protection under the law to all people, including all non-citizens, within its jurisdiction. This clause has been the basis for many decisions rejecting irrational or unnecessary discrimination against people belonging to various groups.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Each of the States has the power to declare an official religion of that State, but the Federal Government is to remain free of an official religion.

You're about 150 years behind the curve.

 

[The Barbarian]

The intent was to prevent the Federal Government from interfering in religious organizations and religious practices.
The intent was never to protect the Federal Government from "the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies".

Madison wrote the Bill of Rights, and as you know, the Detached Memoranda, as well as Against Religious Assessments.

So he's a better authority than you.

 

[Jacob]

Christianity was pretty much the only religion in America in the founder's day . But the founders believed that every America should have the right to follow any religion, as well as the right not to follow any religion at all .
But unfortunately, extremist Christians in America stubbornly refuse to acknowledge this fact . They say "America is a Christian nation founded on Christianity and the bible ".
Today, America is the most religiously diverse nation in world history . The majority is still Christian , but Christians of virtually every denomination . There are also millions of Americans who follow Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and who knows how many other more obscure faiths .
Not to mention millions of atheists and agnostics . There are now more atheists in America than there were people at the time of our founding . As well as a growing number of people known as the "nones" , or people who do not follow any religion at all but are not necessarily atheists .
The Christian majority has been rapidly shrinking in the past two decades or so , and more and more people are abandoning Christianity because they no longer believe in it .
If the founders could somehow come back today , they would be overjoyed to see this religious diversity . When Jews began to settle in America at an increased rate long ago ( there had been a small number for many years ) , George Washington welcomed them with open arms , saying that our government would "give to bigotry no sanction ". This was a pretty radical thing to do in the late 18th century .
The early 19th century conflict with the Barbary pirates in north Africa was not a war against Islam per se . It was a war against piracy and to protect US citizens who were on ships in the mediterranean . The founders would have had absolutely no problem with peaceful, law-abiding Muslims settling in America , but it's only n recent years that this has happened .

Maybe diversity is desired, but I think being able to think about the Bible is to be valued, rather than someone telling you how to think.

 

[genuineoriginal]

But the 14th Amendment required all states to also abide by the Bill of Rights. Before that, states could legally have established religion.

The Due Process Clause prohibits state and local governments from depriving persons of life, liberty, or property without a fair procedure. The Supreme Court has ruled this clause makes most of the Bill of Rights as applicable to the states as it is to the federal government, as well as to recognize substantive and procedural requirements that state laws must satisfy. The Equal Protection Clause requires each state to provide equal protection under the law to all people, including all non-citizens, within its jurisdiction. This clause has been the basis for many decisions rejecting irrational or unnecessary discrimination against people belonging to various groups.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

It sounds like some sinister people have twisted the actual text of the Fourteenth Amendment in order to invalidate the Bill of Rights.

 

[The Barbarian]

It sounds like some sinister people have twisted the actual text of the Fourteenth Amendment in order to invalidate the Bill of Rights.

The Fourteenth Amendment requires states to respect our rights outlined in the Bill of Rights. Sounds like you're twisting the Fourteenth Amendment to justify violating people's rights.

But it doesn't matter what you and I say; the Supreme Court and other federal courts have repeatedly held that the 14th Amendment means that states have to conform to the Bill of Rights as well.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Madison wrote the Bill of Rights, and as you know, the Detached Memoranda, as well as Against Religious Assessments.

So he's a better authority than you.

And you are a worst authority than me.

 

[genuineoriginal]

The Fourteenth Amendment requires states to respect our rights outlined in the Bill of Rights. Sounds like you're twisting the Fourteenth Amendment to justify violating people's rights.

Fourteenth Amendment Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State. Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may, by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability. Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void. Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

​

Please show me where the Fourteenth Amendment requires the States to respect our rights outlined in the Bill of Rights.
I can't find that anywhere.

But it doesn't matter what you and I say; the Supreme Court and other federal courts have repeatedly held that the 14th Amendment means that states have to conform to the Bill of Rights as well.

Like I said: It sounds like some sinister people have twisted the actual text of the Fourteenth Amendment in order to invalidate the Bill of Rights.

 

[genuineoriginal]

more and more people are abandoning Christianity because they no longer believe in it .
If the founders could somehow come back today , they would be overjoyed to see this religious diversity .

:rotfl: :darwinsm: :rotfl: :darwinsm: :rotfl: :darwinsm: :rotfl: :darwinsm: :rotfl: :darwinsm:

The funniest thing about your statement is that you actually believe it.

 

[The Barbarian]

Please show me where the Fourteenth Amendment requires the States to respect our rights outlined in the Bill of Rights. I can't find that anywhere.

​

So far, every federal court, including the Supreme Court found it. This is it: No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. Whatever rights are in the Constitution, cannot be abridged by any state.

​

 

[genuineoriginal]

So far, every federal court, including the Supreme Court found it.

This is it:
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Whatever rights are in the Constitution, cannot be abridged by any state.

Nothing about the Bill of Rights there.
Laws are supposed to be interpreted according to what they actually say, not according to what is never said.

 

[ok doser]

Christianity was pretty much the only religion in America in the founder's day .

except for all those pesky non-Christian natives, eh?

If the founders could somehow come back today , they would be overjoyed to see this religious diversity .

well, no

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

John Adams

and many many more

 

[Kit the Coyote]

Nothing about the Bill of Rights there.
Laws are supposed to be interpreted according to what they actually say, not according to what is never said.

No, I see the logic here and he is right this does extend the Bill of Rights down to the states. The Bill of Rights is a restriction on the Federal Government to protect those rights of US Citizens enumerated in the Bill of Rights. Thus it is part of the privileges and immunities of a citizen of the United States. The first line of the Amendment is "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States." This is actually a much better wording than simply saying 'Bill of Rights' as it includes all rights and other protections provided to such citizens, not just the enumerated ones. Technically the ninth and tenth amendments would do that too but this removes any ambiguity.

 

[The Barbarian]

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Whatever rights are in the Constitution, cannot be abridged by any state.

Nothing about the Bill of Rights there.

The Bill of Rights is just a term. What matters is the section that Amendment 14 forbids the states from abridging any right enjoyed by a citizen of the United States, those being defined by the first ten amendments.

No way to wiggle around that clause. The 14th Amendment extends the Bill of Rights to the state governments as well.

Denial will do you nothing whatsoever.







Laws are supposed to be interpreted according to what they actually say, not according to what is never said.[/QUOTE]

 

[genuineoriginal]

No, I see the logic here and he is right this does extend the Bill of Rights down to the states. The Bill of Rights is a restriction on the Federal Government to protect those rights of US Citizens enumerated in the Bill of Rights. Thus it is part of the privileges and immunities of a citizen of the United States. The first line of the Amendment is "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States." This is actually a much better wording than simply saying 'Bill of Rights' as it includes all rights and other protections provided to such citizens, not just the enumerated ones. Technically the ninth and tenth amendments would do that too but this removes any ambiguity.

The Bill of Rights is not a list of "privileges or immunities".

The Bill of Rights is a set of restrictions imposed upon the Federal government to prevent it from usurping the sovereignty of the citizens of the individual States and the sovereignty of the individual States.

You are misreading the Fourteenth Amendment.

 

[genuineoriginal]

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Whatever rights are in the Constitution, cannot be abridged by any state.

The Constitution does not grant "rights".
The Fourteenth Amendment says that the States cannot make or enforce laws that abridge the PRIVILEGES or IMMUNITIES of citizens.
Nothing about "rights" there at all.

The Bill of Rights is just a term. What matters is the section that Amendment 14 forbids the states from abridging any right enjoyed by a citizen of the United States, those being defined by the first ten amendments.

"privileges or immunities" are not "rights"

No way to wiggle around that clause.

So why are you trying to wiggle around the clause by removing the words of the Amendment and substituting your own?

 

[The Horn]

:rotfl: :darwinsm: :rotfl: :darwinsm: :rotfl: :darwinsm: :rotfl: :darwinsm: :rotfl: :darwinsm:

The funniest thing about your statement is that you actually believe it.

What makes you think the founders would have had any objection to the religious diversity which exists in America today ? They wouldn't have had any objections at all .