Dr. Walt Brown on the Hydroplate Theory

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Jukia

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stipe said:
The current seafloor is supposed to be the remains of the original chamber floor. It has to underlay all the sediment deposited by the flood.

Mickey Mantle does ring a bell, though I guessed baseball on the strength of the Taiwanese pitcher over there at the moment. Wang Chien-Ming (王建民 ).
Would Brown's theory also require the original chamber floor to be under the continents as well? Isn't his theory that the subterranean waters were around the whole earth?
 

aharvey

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Sorry I've been away (dealing with an allergic reaction to a drug, etc.). During that time, though, I tried to assemble a summary of Brown's hydroplate model. There are three elements to this: the historical scenario, the underlying processes that drive these events, and supporting evidence. I would like to start by outlining the historical scenario, using Brown's words as much as possible (though reassembled from diverse parts of his book) and adding my own questions whenever I'm not sure what he means.

Even restricting myself to a summary of just the historical scenario yields a big document, so I have to further break it into pieces. Here is the outline as a whole:

I. Before the flood
II. The great event itself: A. The rupture phase
B. The flood phase
C. The continental drift phase:
D. The recovery phase

I will summarize each of the five lines above in its own post, including only the events in Brown's words and [my questions]. I will also make a web version of this that will include figures as needed, both Brown's and my own, but that won't happen for a day or two.

Ready? Then without further ado, here's part 1. Any comments will be appreciated, although you will recognize that I've already asked the questions contained in this section.

Before the flood

About half the water now in the oceans was once in interconnected chambers about 10 miles below the earth’s surface. Excluding the extensive solid structure of these chambers, which will be called pillars, the subterranean water was like a thin, spherical shell, averaging about 3/4 of a mile in thickness. Above the subterranean water was a granite crust [the hydroplate]; beneath the water was a layer of basaltic rock.

[the location and mineral makeup of the crusts (i.e., the granite crust above the basalt crust) lead me to infer that these correspond to today’s continental and oceanic crusts, respectively]

Below the basalt was the top of the earth’s mantle.

Click here for Brown's diagram.
------
[Note that the lower levels of pre-Flood Earth are not really discussed, but it appears that the core was not especially hot, much less molten:]

Today’s geothermal heat is largely a result of the flood.

[Following the rupture of the hydroplate] Friction melted much of the inner earth as mass shifted toward the rising Atlantic.

-----

The [granite] crust did not float on water; water was trapped and sealed under the crust. (Water pressure and pillars supported the crust.) The crust was like a thin slab of rock resting on and covering an entire waterbed. As long as the water mattress does not rupture, a dense slab will rest on top of less-dense water.

Europe, Asia, Africa, and the Americas were generally in the positions shown in Figure 51 on page 109, but were joined across what is now the Atlantic Ocean. On the preflood crust were seas, both deep and shallow, and mountains, generally smaller than those of today, but some perhaps 5,000 feet high.

 

Stripe

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Jukia said:
Would Brown's theory also require the original chamber floor to be under the continents as well? Isn't his theory that the subterranean waters were around the whole earth?
Yes. That would seem necessary. AHarvey's post also reads as I recall the book saying.
 

aharvey

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I've asked only one question here.

Part 2. The great event itself: First stop, Rupture Phase.

ncreasing pressure in the subterranean water stretched the overlying crust, just as a balloon stretches when the pressure inside increases. Eventually, this shell of rock reached its failure point. Failure began with a microscopic crack at the earth’s surface [(My emphasis)]. [E]ach end grew rapidly—at about 3 miles per second. Within seconds, this crack penetrated down to the subterranean chamber and then followed the path of least resistance around the earth. The ends of the crack, traveling in opposite directions, circled the earth in about one hour. [T]he crack traveled a path that intersected itself at a large angle, forming a “T” or “Y” somewhere on the opposite side of the earth from where the rupture began.

As the crack raced around the earth, the 10-mile-thick crust opened like a rip in a tightly stretched cloth. upercritical water explode[d] with great violence out of the 10-mile-deep “slit” that wrapped around the earth like the seam of a baseball.
[Click here and here for what Brown thinks this looked like]

All along this globe-circling rupture, whose path approximates today’s Mid-Oceanic Ridge, a fountain of water [and rock debris, presumably?] jetted supersonically into and far above the atmosphere, that [either fell as rain great distances away (causing unprecedented flooding),] rose above the atmosphere where it froze and then fell on various regions of the earth as huge masses of extremely cold, muddy “hail,” [or] escaped the earth’s gravity and became the solar system’s comets, asteroids, and meteoroids.

 

aharvey

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stipe said:
Yes, what? Yes, the rain that fell was a mix of water and rock debris? (Also, as I recall this subterranean water was pretty salty, so are we actually talking about a salt-sediment slurry?) Anyways, it might be a good idea to copy at least the question to which you're responding. There are going to be a few, from me alone. Thanks!
 

aharvey

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Again, only one question here.

Part 3: Next stop, Flood Phase.

Each side of the rupture was basically a 10-mile-high cliff. [As a result of various forces, the cliffsides] fragmented and fell into the pulverizing supersonic flow. Consequently, the 46,000-mile-long rupture rapidly widened to an average of about 800 miles all around the earth.

Sediments swept up in the escaping flood waters gave the water a thick, muddy consistency [I can’t safely identify the source of these sediments: raining down from the sky, eroded from the hydroplate surface by rapidly moving rain-caused flood waters, or flowing out from the rupture?] These sediments settled out over the earth’s surface in days, trapping and burying many plants and animals, beginning the process of forming the world’s fossils.

The rising flood waters eventually blanketed the water jetting from the rupture, although water still surged out of the rupture. Because today’s major mountains had not yet formed, global flooding covered the earth’s relatively smooth topography.

The flood phase ended with the continents near the positions shown in Figure 51 and the top frame of Figure 61.
 

Stripe

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You said: I've asked only one question here.

I took that to mean this one: a fountain of water (and rock debris, presumably?)

I answered: Yes.

The water wasn't salty.
 

aharvey

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stipe said:
You said: I've asked only one question here.

I took that to mean this one: a fountain of water (and rock debris, presumably?)

I answered: Yes.
Thank you for clarifying. Yes, that was the one question I asked in that post, but keep in mind I'm breaking this summary up into five posts, each with their own question or two.
stipe said:
The water wasn't salty.
According to Brown it was. Again, the references are scattered all over the place, which makes this harder than it needs to be. Here's a typical quote: "Salty, subterranean water, erupting onto the earth’s surface, would not have rapidly mixed with the less salty preflood seas" from here.
 

aharvey

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Four questions here.

Part 4: Next stop: Continental-Drift Phase.

The rupture path continuously widened during the flood phase. Eventually, the width was so great, and so much of the surface weight had been removed, that the compressed rock beneath the exposed floor of the subterranean chamber sprung upward.

As the Mid-Atlantic Ridge began to rise, creating slopes on either side, the granite hydroplates started to slide downhill. This removed even more weight from what was to become the floor of the Atlantic Ocean. As weight was removed, the floor rose faster and the slopes increased, so the hydroplates accelerated, removing even more weight, etc. The entire Atlantic floor rapidly rose almost 10 miles.

As the first segment of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge began to rise, it helped lift adjacent portions of the chamber floor just enough for them to become unstable and spring upward. This process continued all along the rupture path, forming the Mid-Oceanic Ridge. For a day or so, the sliding hydroplates were almost perfectly lubricated by water still escaping from beneath them. [There are three separate phenomena intermingled here: the rising of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, apparently at a single location; the sliding away of the hydroplates on either side of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge; the propogation of this rise to eventually form the entire Mid-Oceanic Ridge. It is unclear to me how the model integrates all three phenomena temporally.]

Continental plates accelerated away from the widening Atlantic. (Recall that the rupture encircled the earth, and escaping subterranean water widened that rupture about 400 miles on each side of the rupture, not just on what is now the Atlantic side of the earth but also on the Pacific side. Thus, the plates on opposite sides of the Atlantic could slide at least 400 miles away from the rising Mid-Atlantic Ridge.

As the Mid-Atlantic Ridge and Atlantic floor rose, mass had to shift within the earth toward the Atlantic. Subsidence occurred on the opposite side of the earth, especially in the western Pacific where granite plates buckled downward, forming trenches. Frictional heating caused by high-pressure movements under the Pacific floor generated [the] lava outpourings [i.e., the “Ring of Fire”] that covered the hydroplate. [As indicated here and elsewhere, Brown considers the Pacific Ocean floor (and apparently Indian Ocean floor) to be the hydroplate secondarily covered with basaltic lava, whereas the Atlantic Ocean floor is considered to be the true basaltic ocean crust. Which I am having trouble reconciling with the fact that the bulk of the Mid-Oceanic Ridge (formed explicitly when an 800-mile-wide strip of hydroplate is completely removed) is found in the Pacific and Indian Oceans (hydroplate). What am I missing?]

Eventually, the drifting—actually, accelerating—hydroplates ran into resistances of two types. The first happened as the water lubricant beneath each sliding plate was depleted. The second occurred when a plate collided with something [I do not know what this “something” is. Any ideas?]. As each massive hydroplate decelerated, it experienced a gigantic compression event—buckling, crushing, and thickening each plate.

These six frames [his figure 61, I think] simply rotate the present continents about today’s polar axis. Therefore, greater movement occurs at lower latitudes. [I don’t understand the logic here, which would seem to require that lateral forces decrease as you move towards the Poles.] Movement begins from where the continents best fit against the base of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge (see Figure 51 on page 109) and ends near their present locations.

Mountains formed and overthrusts occurred as the weaker portions of the hydroplates crushed, thickened, and buckled. The new postflood continents rose out of the flood waters, allowing water to drain into newly opened ocean basins. For each cubic mile of land that rose out of the flood waters, one cubic mile of flood water could drain.
 

aharvey

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Last page of summary. Two sets of questions here.

Part 5: Last but not least: Recovery Phase.

Where did the water go? When the compression event began on a particular hydroplate, the plate crushed, thickened, buckled, and rose out of the water. As it did, the flood waters receded. Simultaneously, the upward-surging, subterranean water was “choked off” as the plates settled onto the subterranean chamber floor. With the water source shut off, the deep, newly-opened basins between the continents became reservoirs into which the flood waters returned.

[T]he floors of these deep reservoirs were initially part of the basalt floor of the subterranean chamber, about 10 miles below the earth’s surface. Consequently, sea level soon after the flood was several miles lower than it is today. [I do not see the cause-and-effect relationship implied here. Is it simply “the rupture was 10 miles deep, but the oceans aren’t that deep today, so sea levels must have been lower then”?]

After the flood, hydroplates rested on portions of the former chamber floor, and oceans covered most other portions. Because the thickened hydroplates applied greater pressure to the floor than did the water, the hydroplates slowly sank into the chamber floor over the centuries, causing the deep ocean floor to rise.

Canyons. Drainage of the waters that covered the earth left every continental basin filled to the brim with water. Some of these postflood lakes lost more water by evaporation and seepage than they gained by rainfall and drainage from higher elevations. Consequently, they shrank over the centuries. Through rainfall and drainage from higher terrain, other lakes gained more water than they lost. Thus, water overflowed each lake’s rim at the lowest point on the rim. The resulting erosion at that point on the rim allowed more water to flow over it. This eroded the cut in the rim even deeper and caused much more water to cut it faster. Therefore, the downcutting accelerated catastrophically. The entire lake quickly dumped through a deep slit which we today call a canyon. These waters spilled into the next lower basin, causing it to breach its rim and create another canyon. With thousands of large, high lakes after the flood, and a lowered sea level, many other canyons were carved. Some are now covered by the raised ocean.

Earthquakes. The flood produced great mass imbalances on earth, and this causes earthquakes. Continents sank into the mantle and lifted ocean floors. Mountain ranges sank into the mantle and raised plateaus. Shifting material throughout the earth is the root cause of earthquakes and slowly shifting continents.

Ice Age. Warm oceans produced high evaporation rates and heavy cloud cover. [A]fter the flood, the elevated continents were colder than today. Conversely, lowered sea levels meant warmer oceans. Also, volcanic debris in the air and heavy cloud cover shielded the earth’s surface from much of the Sun’s rays. At higher latitudes and elevations, such as the newly elevated and extremely high mountains, this combination of high precipitation and low temperatures produced very heavy snow falls—perhaps 100 times those of today. Large temperature differences between the cold land and warm oceans generated high winds that rapidly transported moist air up onto the elevated, cool continents where heavy snowfall occurred, especially over glaciated areas. As snow depths increased, periodic and rapid movements of the glaciers occurred in “avalanche fashion.” During summer months, rain caused some glaciers to partially melt and retreat, marking the end of that year’s “ice age.” [Does this mean that what geologists refer to as different “ice ages” simply represent a string of consecutive really bad winters immediately post-Flood? Is this process still in operation? If not, what caused it to stop?]
 

GuySmiley

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aharvey said:
Sorry, I didn't mean to kill this thread!
Your summaries were very interesting and it would be great to see those quesitons answered, but I think only Walt Brown could do it.
 

Stripe

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You didn't. I had to leave for work and didn't see the updates...
 

Stripe

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aharvey said:
Four questions here. Part 4: Next stop: Continental-Drift Phase.
Let me have a crack at interpreting Walt's work..

The rupture phase excavated a lot of material from the preflood crust along the lines of the modern day Mid Ocean Ridges (MOR's). Conceptualise, if you will, what might have happened had nothing resulted from this. What would have happened had only the material been excavated, but there was no water or mass movement through the Earth. No subsidence or plate movement. We would expect to see a wide canyon encircling the globe which Walt claims would be 800miles (?) wide. Gravity would subsequently act upon that canyon to fill it in over the years.

This event is drowned out by several factors in Walt's hypothesis. Firstly, and possibly most importantly, is the idea that there was a specific starting point for the failure of the crust. This is where the pressure would have been the greatest and the excavation the most thorough. This is where mass from inside the Earth would be drawn to more readily. This is where the gradient of the underwater chamber would increase the most and tilt the overlying plates the greatest.

From that initial point the pressures, volumes and gradients would drop off around the Earth, following the rupture. Water pressure would decrease, excavation volumes would decrease and gradients would decrease. So once the Rupture phase has gone full circle the pressure would remain highest at the point of initial rupture due to the increased pressure there from mantle mass pushing upwards. On the Pacific side water pressure would be less because the mass there would be removed, the Pacific Basin lowered.

As the mass presses upward under the Atlantic the gradient increases. The remaining continental plates (ie anything not excavated by the rupture phase) slide downhill and run free until the water runs out and they scrape to a halt on the subterrainean chamber floor. there is probably a model that can be drawn up to account for different rupture and plate movement settings acting toward each other which might account for different kinds of landforms we see.

Does that make some kinda sense under the guise of the proposed hypothesis?

I love this picture:
 

aharvey

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stipe said:
Let me have a crack at interpreting Walt's work..

The rupture phase excavated a lot of material from the preflood crust along the lines of the modern day Mid Ocean Ridges (MOR's). Conceptualise, if you will, what might have happened had nothing resulted from this. What would have happened had only the material been excavated, but there was no water or mass movement through the Earth. No subsidence or plate movement. We would expect to see a wide canyon encircling the globe which Walt claims would be 800miles (?) wide. Gravity would subsequently act upon that canyon to fill it in over the years.

This event is drowned out by several factors in Walt's hypothesis. Firstly, and possibly most importantly, is the idea that there was a specific starting point for the failure of the crust. This is where the pressure would have been the greatest and the excavation the most thorough. This is where mass from inside the Earth would be drawn to more readily. This is where the gradient of the underwater chamber would increase the most and tilt the overlying plates the greatest.

From that initial point the pressures, volumes and gradients would drop off around the Earth, following the rupture. Water pressure would decrease, excavation volumes would decrease and gradients would decrease. So once the Rupture phase has gone full circle the pressure would remain highest at the point of initial rupture due to the increased pressure there from mantle mass pushing upwards. On the Pacific side water pressure would be less because the mass there would be removed, the Pacific Basin lowered.
I'm not following this last paragraph. Mantle mass pushing upwards in the rupture would tend to seal the gap between the crust and the hydroplate at the rupture, and thus should not, as far as I can figure, increase the pressure of the water shooting out of the rupture; if anything it should increase the back pressure on the water, forcing (well, encouraging!) it to exit elsewhere. But the important point to me is not whether the physics is correct or not, but whether it is part of the hydroplate model. It doesn't sound familiar to me, but then again that's why I'm asking this group!
stipe said:
As the mass presses upward under the Atlantic the gradient increases. The remaining continental plates (ie anything not excavated by the rupture phase) slide downhill and run free until the water runs out and they scrape to a halt on the subterrainean chamber floor. there is probably a model that can be drawn up to account for different rupture and plate movement settings acting toward each other which might account for different kinds of landforms we see.

Does that make some kinda sense under the guise of the proposed hypothesis?
Well, it seems consistent with the model, but I don't yet see how it answers my four questions above. But really, the one question of these that seems critical to resolve is that if the Mid-Oceanic Ridge resulted from the mantle pushing the oceanic crust up in the 800-mile wide gap in the hydroplate, then how is it that most of the Mid-Oceanic Ridge (e.g., in the Pacific and Indian Oceans) is pushing up through what Brown apparently considers to be submerged hydroplate rather than oceanic crust?
stipe said:
I love this picture:
Yeah, it's a beaut. I wish I had a high-res version.
 

Stripe

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Look at South America. The plate slid away from the Mid Atlantic Ridge and buckled under contact with the chamber floor when the water levels ran down. The point of contact is fartherest away from the Atlantic rupture point because that's where the water would run out first (it moved eastward). That whole line of contact formed mountain ranges that follow the edge of the continent. The elevation of the Atlantic is offset by the slumping of the Pacific providing gravitational answers for the formation of the Andes.
 

aharvey

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stipe said:
Look at South America. The plate slid away from the Mid Atlantic Ridge and buckled under contact with the chamber floor when the water levels ran down. The point of contact is fartherest away from the Atlantic rupture point because that's where the water would run out first (it moved eastward). That whole line of contact formed mountain ranges that follow the edge of the continent. The elevation of the Atlantic is offset by the slumping of the Pacific providing gravitational answers for the formation of the Andes.
This is too vague for me to tell if you're even addressing the question I'm asking. So, taking your South American example, I've thrown together this web page to show with pictures what I'm trying to understand.
 

Stripe

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I think there are some sequences that divide between the hydroplate and the chamber floor. The chamber floor is tilted at up to 60 degrees, sheared off, and overlaid with eroded sediment.

I will have to look at your webpage again tomorrow, but it looks like you've asked some pointed questions.

Cheers.
 
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