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  • What's between you and Granite is between you and Granite, but regarding the Scriptures you cited re: fornication, speaking for myself, I've already stated that Scripturally fornication is definitely "immoral." But nowhere in the Scriptures provided (or anywhere else) is fornication considered a "crime."

    Immoral, yes. Criminal, no. That's the argument.

    Comment


    • Apollo – You waltzed around the issue that I was waiting to get an answer about.

      Will you respect me and my wishes that you we use biblical terms wherever they are appropriate and sufficient and not use the B word?

      Will you treat me with the dignity and respect of a mature caring Christian or like you did when I complained about your childish tantrum?

      I raised these issues not to forget about them, and not to frustrate things, but to keep things more reasonable and respectable and biblical. I have a hard time understanding exactly why you have a hard time with some basic and reasonable requests. But, perhaps you are a brat kid and just can’t stay away from the childish and contemptuousness of it all. I can study and learn on my own, I don’t appreciate your 2 faced personality mood swings. And I was not conceding any points other than what I clearly have, that I was wrong for arguing against the terms previously mentioned. I have not lifted a single finger to learn the answers to the questions I have raised about all this, and for some reason, you have not offered assistance, but instead appear to wonder if I am changing my mind already.

      If you are willing to discuss these matters without the childish and crude bit, you could start by (1) helping me with the issues I have raised and (2) by explaining how it is that general commands against fornication do not apply to the virgin price issue. I realize that you claim that there are not such commands in terms of laws, but, you could offer your findings about that search. For instance, what are the associated terms and phrases that might be synonymous with fornication, and are there any commands or laws about them?

      As to my remarks about prostitution. If you would examine what I said, you might understand my tentative understanding on that issue as well. It was my best guess that it was a crime, but I may well be wrong about that and I never said without a doubt, that it was a crime.

      Here’s another one. They used to allow for multiple wives, but in the NT we find teachings that it is good to only have one wife (church leadership). So there is a notable change, and I have to wonder if that may apply also to prostitution and fornication, though it is only a question.

      If you have answers about these issues, the please enlighten, but if you will continue reviling and be so childish, especially in the face of a bible concern for your family, then enough is enough.

      Immoral, as in fornication is a sin, right? Or immoral as in, I wouldn’t do it, most people wouldn’t do it, but some do I guess, not that big of a deal. I’ll hold off on your kids remark until matters settle down some.
      Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.

      Comment


      • "It was my best guess that it was a crime, but I may well be wrong about that and I never said without a doubt, that it was a crime."

        Before defending Enyart tooth and nail, perhaps you should have your ducks in a row before taking your "best guess."

        It's interesting that North, for one theonomist, does not see the virgin price laws applying to unmarried individuals--he sees it only applying to seduced virgins. See his comments in Tools of Dominion on this issue.




        Comment


        • granite 1010 - Tooth and nail I reserve for the bible, and maybe a freshly grilled T-bone steak. Find any non-condemning fornication passages yet in my list to you? Mr. ducks in a row? Not willing to taking back the falsifying relish comment just yet? You don’t have a log in your eye now do you?
          Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.

          Comment


          • Dunno, 1Way, we don’t seem to be making any progress. It’s almost like you haven’t heard a word I’ve said. You’re asking me to repeat my entire argument. Hopefully, someone else is listening. Subject seems t’get a lotta looks, no one’s buying. Window shopping.

            Virgin bride price laws don’t “work” for fornication because virgin bride price laws don’t “fit.” I am, in principle, against “generalizing” from the “specifics” of Scripture, especially in matters of the Law. If I cut the corners off the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle so the picture I create resembles the picture I have in mind, I’d be cheating. We can’t do that. You can’t “piece” the Law together from parts of “close, but no cigar” laws snipped out of context in order to “build a case” against something.

            Is the Law of God THE LAW, or a guideline? If the Law is only a guideline, the law can mean anything, and can be made to DO anything. To paraphrase our friend Leo V from another thread, regardless of who “owns” the law, ultimately the law is in the hands of judges. That’s bad enough, but the buck has to stop somewhere.

            Worse, if the Law can be “amended,” added to, given a slight, self-serving “twist” now and then, the Law can be captured, interpreted, and amended in order to advance the interests of the ruling party. Fascist. Republican. Communist. Democrat. Islamic. Socialist. Catholic. Protestant. Doesn’t matter.

            The POINT is, even in a “biblical” society, not even God’s Law can protect us if the Law can be stretched to mean whatever a majority of the people -- or an elite inner circle -- want it to mean. If the Law is to be taken literally in its original application, how can it be taken “literally” in a secondary application?

            The Law, as written, protects the rights of the people from those who would manipulate the Law in the name of the Law. If virgin bride price laws are really about protecting the “sexual purity” of society, and not just the “property rights” of the father, a barrage of sexual purity laws could emerge, including fines for wearing red lipstick in public on Sunday, or “blue” laws criminalizing pet euphemisms for sex, justified, in principle, on the virgin bride price laws. Look around. There is no END to the making of law. That’s why “extra”-biblical law, or “derivative” biblical law, or laws loosely “based” on biblical law is, to my mind, humanistic law.

            Can’t imagine what issue of I’ve “waltzed” around. The Law is specific. If there are no specific laws criminalizing fornication, concubines, prostitution, or gum chewing, then sex between consenting unmarried adults, and gum chewing, isn’t a crime. Can’t get much simpler than that.

            Should men be allowed to kiss in public in a “biblical society”? Probably not, but there’s no “law” against it. (Yet.) Men kissing in public could be criminalized based on “homosexuality” laws, same way fornication could be criminalized based on “virgin bride price” laws, but does the law really “fit”? New Testament saints greeted each other with a holy kiss. So, now we’re talking about “kinds” of kisses between “kinds” of men. On the lips. On the cheek. “Holy” kisses, “profane” kisses. Males kissing males is also a “cultural” issue. In many cultures, men kissing men is non-sexual and “normal,” more like a handshake. Hate to stereotype, but will Italians and Greeks be “exempt” from this law by virtue of their cultural heritage? Or will any man kissing another man for any reason be arrested?

            The more the Law is divided, the murkier the law becomes. The murkier the law becomes, the more invasive the law becomes. ALWAYS. Under ANY system of law. Over time, the original, unadorned “Law” would be lost.

            If it ain’t a crime in the Bible – it ain’t a crime!

            (1) helping me with the issues I have raised…
            I’m trying.

            and (2) by explaining how it is that general commands against fornication do not apply to the virgin price issue.
            See above.

            I realize that you claim that there are not such commands in terms of laws, but, you could offer your findings about that search. For instance, what are the associated terms and phrases that might be synonymous with fornication, and are there any commands or laws about them?
            It’s a little difficult to provide evidence for something that doesn’t exist. What you earlier called a “negative argument,” I believe. The hard truth is, there are no laws “criminalizing” fornication, concubines, or prostitution. That’s the Law. We either live with it, or start pulling extra-biblical laws out of thin air in order to advance what amounts to a “humanistic” agenda dressed in sheep’s clothing. As for associated terms, the only one I can think of off-hand is “to know,” as in, so-and-so “knew” so-and-so in the “biblical” sense. Fornication IS the word. Here’s the thing. You know the Bible. You’re a student of the Word. It is what it is.

            Thanks for engaging.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by 1Way

              granite 1010 - Tooth and nail I reserve for the bible, and maybe a freshly grilled T-bone steak. Find any non-condemning fornication passages yet in my list to you? Mr. ducks in a row? Not willing to taking back the falsifying relish comment just yet? You don’t have a log in your eye now do you?
              Enyart advocates executing a murderer as he murdered his victim. If this isn't perverse and sadistic, I don't know what is. So, thank you kindly, but I'll stand by my original statement.

              "Non-condemning fornication passages"? What does this semi-literate tidbit mean?




              Comment


              • Granite 1010 – Bob does not teach that without other considerations. The bible teaches death by stoning and fire and other forms as well. The execution should not be painless, it should be painful, but it should not involve prolonged torture. So if someone tortured someone to death, Bob would oppose a like manner execution.

                I understand his teaching to be biblical, but you don’t understand his teaching, and you don’t care if you get it wrong or not. You can believe a lie if you want, you are perfectly free to believe something that Bob does not teach.
                Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.

                Comment


                • Apollo – You said
                  It’s a little difficult to provide evidence for something that doesn’t exist.
                  I realize that I may be taking this out of context, but it fits our entire discussion pretty well. And I’m not trying to avoid your post, I just have this interjection to make. You mean, “something that you think does not exist”, there’s a difference.

                  Is it (should it be) a crime to commit abortion?

                  Granting that abortion was not even dreamt up until more recent “modern” times, it seems the fact that abortion is not specifically mentioned in the bible, so can it possibly be a crime to commit an abortion according to God’s word?

                  Of course by extension, we could list thousands of “crimes” or “offenses” that should be a crime but that are not specifically mentioned in the bible.
                  Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.

                  Comment


                  • "The execution should not be painless, it should be painful, but it should not involve prolonged torture."

                    Why exactly, and where is this prescription written in scripture? This is another Enyart invention.




                    Comment


                    • realize that I may be taking this out of context, but it fits our entire discussion pretty well. And I’m not trying to avoid your post, I just have this interjection to make. You mean, “something that you think does not exist”, there’s a difference.
                      If fornication is a crime, prove it. If you can’t, it’s not a crime. Once again, the burden of proof is on the prosecution to produce the law that’s been broken, not on the accused to produce a law that doesn’t exist.

                      Is it (should it be) a crime to commit abortion?
                      Yes, because abortion is a form of murder and murder IS a crime under biblical law.

                      Comment


                      • granite - There are no painless executions taught or promoted in the bible. And stoning to death is probably the most often prescribed, and is probably one of the most painful. When we think of a painless execution, we think of modern ways of doing it, like lethal injection for example. Stoning is slightly more painful I think.

                        Still haven't found a non-condemning uses of fornication in that list yet?
                        Last edited by 1Way; May 5th, 2004, 04:58 AM.
                        Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.

                        Comment


                        • Apollo – So you admit that although abortion is not specifically condemned as a crime in the bible, abortion is “a form of” a biblically mentioned crime, murder, so it should also be a crime, even though abortion is no where specifically taught against in the bible. So by logical extension, a relationship of similarity, being of the same “kind”, is good enough grounds for something being a crime. Thanks for clarifying that much.

                          So what have you ruled out?
                          Have you any nearest or most likely examples of crimes affirmed by scripture that directly relate to fornication? If so, what are they and why did you rule them out?
                          Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.

                          Comment


                          • I admit that abortion is not specifically condemned because it doesn’t HAVE to be. Under biblical law, murder is ALWAYS a crime, whether committed with a rope, a spear, a blunt instrument, poison, or committed under the supervision of a doctor. Separate “laws” for every conceivable “kind” of murder (stabbing, pushed off a building, deliberately hitting someone with your car, setting someone on fire, and on and on) therefore, aren’t necessary. Murder is murder.

                            SEX, however, is NOT always a crime. Murder always = murder, but sex doesn’t always = “sex crime.” Unlike murder, just because one “kind” of sex is a crime (incest, statutory rape, etc.), it doesn’t mean ALL kinds of sex is a crime. Technically, “accidental” death (manslaughter) isn’t “murder.” It would be a misuse of the law to sentence to death someone guilty of manslaughter based on first-degree murder laws.

                            Likewise, it would be a misuse of the law to criminalize lawful sex based on laws regulating “forbidden” sex (incest, bestiality, homosexuality, rape). The law distinguishes between kinds of “homicide” (lawful, unlawful) and kinds of “sex” (lawful, unlawful). Under biblical law, killing a man in self-defense is “homicide,” but isn’t a “crime.” Similarly, fornication may be “immoral,” but isn’t a crime.

                            Even defenders of abortion-on-demand agree that Roe v Wade is “bad law.” The Supreme Court discovered “privacy” rights in the Constitution that didn’t exist prior to Roe v. Wade, and used this “right” to make anti-abortion laws a “crime.” Attempting to criminalize fornication based on the Constitution of biblical law (the Bible) is an attempt to do the same thing: To “discover” a law, or to “create” a right (in the case of fornication, the “right”of the government to criminalize lawful behavior) in order to advance a religious or political agenda.

                            Have you any nearest or most likely examples of crimes affirmed by scripture that directly relate to fornication? If so, what are they and why did you rule them out?
                            I am aware of no laws or crimes that directly relate to sex between emancipated, non-married adults.

                            [Suggest we move this discussion to my Limits of the Law thread (p 2, General Theology).]

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by 1Way

                              granite - There are no painless executions taught or promoted in the bible. And stoning to death is probably the most often prescribed, and is probably one of the most painful. When we think of a painless execution, we think of modern ways of doing it, like lethal injection for example. Stoning is slightly more painful I think.
                              DUH granite. Gee wiz, this isn't rocket science. Pain for ages has proven to be the best deterrent of evil (or unwanted) behavior. And yes, as 1Way inferred, stoning is probably one of the most painful ways to die. I viewed one from an Iranian video. Brutal. I can think of no place in the Bible where God's penal system called for anything remotely close to a painless execution for capital crimes.

                              Bob's extrapolation is very logical being that it's based strictly on Biblical consistency. Thus we could safely make a similar conclusion about swift sentences even if Ecclesiates 8:11 didn't exist.

                              -J

                              Comment


                              • Stoning, in this day and age, is barbaric and sadistic. And it says more about its defenders than it does about me. Moreover, there is no reason in the world to believe that Enyart's Mode of Murder Fits the Penalty is anything less than an invention. 1Way has squirmed out of this by basically saying that if the crime is TOO sick, executioners shouldn't turn it on the condemned. Another invention.




                                Comment

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