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  • Where Are Our Shepherds - Pt II

    Where Are Our Shepherds - Pt II

    This is the show from Tuesday May 2nd, 2010.

    SUMMARY:

    * Judgment Begins... Where are our Shepherds? Co- Author Gregory Thompson gets to the sad truth regarding today's supposed Christian leaders on air with guest host Gregg Jackson. And here's a note from fellow author Coach Dave Daubenmire:

    I will paraphrase Rev. Father John Corapi's very important truth for Christians, "Every Christian, faithful to the Gospel, has the moral obligation to bear witness to the truth. 'In season and out of season, convenient or inconvenient,' accepted or rejected. This mandate is nothing new, of course, it's as old as the Old Testament, and as new as the New Testament. Nonetheless, I'm afraid that it has become more necessary than ever to remind ourselves of it."

    "You should be very ashamed; if you continue your ways, or continue to do nothing while children are being murdered, and Souls are at risk of eternity." "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free (John 8:32)."

    "They beat themselves" is a common refrain one is likely to hear after watching a sporting event. As is so often the case, a team usually gets beat because they provided too many opportunities for the opponent to be successful. Sadly that is the position that the American Church finds herself in today. Dr. Gregory Thompson, spells out for all who have the courage to look at the truth that America is in the position that we are in because the minds of our children have been "intercepted" because of our unwillingness to "tackle" the enemy in the battle for truth.

    -Dave Daubenmire
    Author and Radio Talk Show Host

    * Please Help BEL: Bob Enyart Live continues the battle to keep broadcasting on KLTT Radio. If you listen in Denver, (or anywhere else) call the station and encourage them keep Bob on the air! Then subscribe to one of Bob’s monthly resources or make a donation to do your part to preserve Godly Truth on the radio.

    Personhood is the most important human rights movement of your lifetime. Will you be one who fights to end the systematic dehumanization and murder of an entire class of citizen? Or will you stay in your comfort zone? If you live in any state in America, you can advance personhood via the 2010 ballot or in one of three different ways. If you live in Colorado join by calling or e-mailing Personhood Colorado or Colorado Right to Life.

    * Today's Resource: Have you browsed through our Science Department in the KGOV Store? Check out especially Walt Brown'
    In the Beginning and Bob's interviews with this great scientist in Walt Brown Week! You'll also love Dr. Guillermo Gonzalez' Privileged Planet (clip), and Illustra Media's Unlocking the Mystery of Life You can consider our BEL Science Pack; Bob Enyart's Age of the Earth Debate; Bob's debate about Junk DNA with famous evolutionist Dr. Eugenie Scott; And the superb kids' radio programming, Jonathan Park: The Adventure Begins! And Bob strongly recommends that you subscribe to CMI's tremendous Creation magazine!
    WARNING: Graphic video here.

  • #2
    just a thought...Perhaps when BEL has guest hosts it would be a good idea to put a waiver out there that you may or may not agree with what is being stated by them.

    Does BEL agree with what these men said on these two shows?
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by heir View Post
      just a thought...Perhaps when BEL has guest hosts it would be a good idea to put a waiver out there that you may or may not agree with what is being stated by them.

      Does BEL agree with what these men said on these two shows?
      For the most part, yes. That's why they were invited to host. Does Bob Enyart agree with ever single detail they spoke? I doubt it. I don't know anyone on the planet I agree with on every single detail.
      WARNING: Graphic video here.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Jefferson View Post
        For the most part, yes. That's why they were invited to host. Does Bob Enyart agree with ever single detail they spoke? I doubt it. I don't know anyone on the planet I agree with on every single detail.
        And yet our apostle tells us to be of one mind:

        Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

        2 Corinthians 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

        Philippians 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

        Philippians 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

        The overriding theme throughout the two shows is that Christians are responsible for the loss of life because they won’t get out of their comfort zone, that the “shepherds” are neglecting their duty when not protesting abortion, and that God is judging this nation today.

        Greg Jackson is the host with his guest Dr. Greggory Thompson, Author (I will use GJ for the host and GT for his guest). Quoting his book, Where Are Our Shepherds? “Disobedience, pride, greed, fear and silence of our shepherds are causing the loss of life and the souls of our children.”

        In dialogue when speaking of God and the state of America:

        GT: “A Holy God cannot bless a nation…He’s not blessing our nation because we’ve turned our backs on Him. We murder our children and we do what’s right in our own eyes.”

        GJ: “He’s not blessing is He? I mean, this is what Jeremiah Wright, Obama’s pastor for 20 years said basically and I have to agree with. He said, “God is damning America.” And I believe that He is, but for maybe different reasons probably than Jeremiah Wright thinks, but He is not blessing us is He?”

        GT:” He is not. And again, not because of what Jeremiah Wright thinks, but He’s not blessing America. And one of the things, if people would just open their eyes and they’re blinded right now, uh...Hosea 4:6 says My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: and if they don’t follow my commands, I’m not only going to forget them, I’m going to forget their children. By Golly, He’s given us the word on what we have to do to protect our children, to protect our country. And want it healed? If we want it healed, and we can have a thousand different schemes, but He told us this is the way to do it. You pray, you humble yourself, you follow my commands, turn from your wicked ways, seek my face and then I will heal your land.”

        GJ: “Barack Obama is God’s tool of judgment on a backslidden nation.”

        GJ: “Here’s a newsflash for Christians out there. Because we have become, as Christians, and abomination in the eyes of God, He has literally made us into an Obama nation… In other words, don’t complain about the punishment. This is just the beginning. By the way, I think God’s about to turn up the heat in a major way to get our attention.”

        GJ: “What could be more important than the sanctity of human life? I don’t think there’s anything more important that they should be talking about on any given Sunday.”

        GT: “It is thee thing."

        Do you see anything wrong with the above statements made by these men?

        Is God judging this nation today?

        Is it true that the Christians who don’t take on your cause of fighting abortion are in their comfort zone or could there be another reason?

        What is the failure of the visible church today?

        And with a quote during a prayer from Greggory Thompson, I’ll ask one more question:

        GT: I plead this. That the shepherds will follow God’s will.”

        What is God’s will?
        2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

        Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by heir View Post
          Do you see anything wrong with the above statements made by these men?

          Is God judging this nation today?
          This is one of their views I disagree with. This view primarily stems from the misinterpretation of 2 Chronicles 7:14 which says, "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

          Israel was God's special nation that He designed to use as a tool to teach the nations about Himself. So when God talks about "my people" in 2nd Chronicles 7:14, He's talking about Israel only. It doesn't apply to any other nation at any other time. The proof is China and Iran. 100% of the Christians in those countries risk their lives just by being Christians. Has God not "healed" the lands of China and Iran because "His people" in those 2 countries are not dedicated enough? Of course they're dedicated. Every single one of them are. Yet there is still persecution of Christians there because that verse doesn't apply to any nation other than Old Testament Israel.

          Is it true that the Christians who don’t take on your cause of fighting abortion are in their comfort zone or could there be another reason?
          Well, it depends on what your definition of "fighting abortion" is. I don't think a mother with young children who need her should risk being thrown in jail and have her children being denied their mother for months and months. However, if a friend simply asks her what her view of abortion is and she replies, "no comment" then yes, I think she has a severe spiritual defect.

          What is the failure of the visible church today?
          In my opinion it's worshiping the false god of Public Acceptance.

          And with a quote during a prayer from Greggory Thompson, I’ll ask one more question:

          GT: I plead this. That the shepherds will follow God’s will.”

          What is God’s will?
          It is primarily to love God and your neighbor.
          WARNING: Graphic video here.

          Comment


          • #6
            Sorry for the delay, I've been a little under the weather.
            Originally posted by Jefferson View Post
            This is one of their views I disagree with. This view primarily stems from the misinterpretation of 2 Chronicles 7:14 which says, "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

            Israel was God's special nation that He designed to use as a tool to teach the nations about Himself. So when God talks about "my people" in 2nd Chronicles 7:14, He's talking about Israel only. It doesn't apply to any other nation at any other time. The proof is China and Iran. 100% of the Christians in those countries risk their lives just by being Christians. Has God not "healed" the lands of China and Iran because "His people" in those 2 countries are not dedicated enough? Of course they're dedicated. Every single one of them are. Yet there is still persecution of Christians there because that verse doesn't apply to any nation other than Old Testament Israel.
            It’s more than a misinterpretation, Jefferson.

            It is the reason that the church is in the mess it is in today. Whether it is out of ignorance or a flat out refusal, failure to distinguish between that of Israel and the Body of Christ, (Prophecy vs. Mystery) keeps the masses tossed to and fro with the winds of doctrine (Ephesians 4:14 KJV), ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth (2 Tim 3:7 KJV).

            2 Tim 2:15 KJV

            Does BEL discuss Mystery vs Prophecy? And if not, why not?

            Well, it depends on what your definition of "fighting abortion" is. I don't think a mother with young children who need her should risk being thrown in jail and have her children being denied their mother for months and months. However, if a friend simply asks her what her view of abortion is and she replies, "no comment" then yes, I think she has a severe spiritual defect.
            Your host and guest spent a great deal of their time dogging on the “shepherds” for not taking on your cause. When speaking of being at Notre Dame to protest the guest GT said, “Where are the pastors?!” “They are sitting on their pillows.” They are in their comfort zone.”
            I didn’t even have to listen to the show. This is in the summary: "You should be very ashamed; if you continue your ways, or continue to do nothing while children are being murdered, and Souls are at risk of eternity." And attached to it, "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." John 8:32 KJV

            What truth makes us free?

            "Personhood is the most important human rights movement of your lifetime. Will you be one who fights to end the systematic dehumanization and murder of an entire class of citizen? Or will you stay in your comfort zone?"

            So if I'm not doing one, I'm doing the other? These are the accusations that continue to fly against the Body of Christ from this organization. These are the kinds of things that make someone like me step out of my comfort zone to speak up; that there are those in the Body of Christ that are following the apostle Paul, our apostle, as instructed by God’s holy word and it is not compromise. Nowhere in Romans-Philemon are we instructed to battle flesh and blood. In fact, we are told it's not the battle!

            Ephesians 6:10-13 KJV Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.


            2 Timothy 2:1-4 KJV Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. 3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. 4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

            In my opinion it's worshiping the false god of Public Acceptance.
            No, Jefferson. It is the failure to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV).

            I don’t know what the “god of public acceptance” is, but I do know that the god of this world is running the show 2 Thessalonians 2:7 KJV For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. It is more than likely that you and I differ on just how he is at work. 2 Corinthians 2:11 KJV Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

            Convinced that you are serving the Lord you have fallen into a snare. The truth is this; the god of this world could care less if a baby is saved from an abortionist or if he dies. Satan is using abortion (and a number of other distractions) to stop man from preaching the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV), the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth (Romans 1:16 KJV). You are being neutralized. You’ve been taken away from being an ambassador for Christ committed with the word of reconciliation (2 Corinthians 5:14-21 KJV), to make manifest God’s will that all men be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4 KJV) by being distracted and consumed by the works of the flesh of man.

            2 Corinthians 4:3-5 KJV But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.


            It is primarily to love God and your neighbor.
            Paul tells us: The will of God is that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:1-6 KJV I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

            So the first step is that men be saved and then come unto the knowledge of the truth. And because Christians differ on how one is saved, just so I'm clear on where BEL stands, how is one saved? And what is the knowledge of the truth and how do I get it?
            Last edited by heir; May 18th, 2010, 04:22 AM.
            2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

            Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

            Comment


            • #7
              One more thing:

              This was one of the worst comments made on the show.:

              GJ: “Here’s a newsflash for Christians out there. Because we have become, as Christians, an abomination in the eyes of God, He has literally made us into an Obama nation… In other words, don’t complain about the punishment. This is just the beginning. By the way, I think God’s about to turn up the heat in a major way to get our attention.”

              Do statements like this ever get addressed and/or corrected by the staff at BEL (whether in private or publicly) to the men who espouse it or is it just not that big of a deal when they call the Body of Christ an abomination or that God is judging the world right now completely ignoring that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself not imputing their trespasses unto them (2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV). If not, why not?
              2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

              Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by heir View Post
                Sorry for the delay, I've been a little under the weather.It’s more than a misinterpretation, Jefferson.

                It is the reason that the church is in the mess it is in today. Whether it is out of ignorance or a flat out refusal, failure to distinguish between that of Israel and the Body of Christ, (Prophecy vs. Mystery) keeps the masses tossed to and fro with the winds of doctrine (Ephesians 4:14 KJV), ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth (2 Tim 3:7 KJV).

                2 Tim 2:15 KJV

                Does BEL discuss Mystery vs Prophecy? And if not, why not?
                Yes. That link is the first 2 chapters of Bob's 11 chapter book covering that topic.

                Your host and guest spent a great deal of their time dogging on the “shepherds” for not taking on your cause. When speaking of being at Notre Dame to protest the guest GT said, “Where are the pastors?!” “They are sitting on their pillows.” They are in their comfort zone.”
                I didn’t even have to listen to the show. This is in the summary: "You should be very ashamed; if you continue your ways, or continue to do nothing while children are being murdered, and Souls are at risk of eternity." And attached to it, "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." John 8:32 KJV

                What truth makes us free?

                "Personhood is the most important human rights movement of your lifetime. Will you be one who fights to end the systematic dehumanization and murder of an entire class of citizen? Or will you stay in your comfort zone?"

                So if I'm not doing one, I'm doing the other? These are the accusations that continue to fly against the Body of Christ from this organization. These are the kinds of things that make someone like me step out of my comfort zone to speak up; that there are those in the Body of Christ that are following the apostle Paul, our apostle, as instructed by God’s holy word and it is not compromise. Nowhere in Romans-Philemon are we instructed to battle flesh and blood. In fact, we are told it's not the battle!

                Ephesians 6:10-13 KJV Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.


                2 Timothy 2:1-4 KJV Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. 3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. 4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
                So you think the few Christians in Germany who broke the law by hiding Jews were acting unbiblically? You think the Christians in America who broke southern law by partaking in the underground railroad to free black slaves were acting unbiblically? You think all Christian congressmen who are trying to pass godly legislation should resign because they are wrestling "against flesh and blood" unbiblically?

                Do you vote? Or do you just pray that godly leaders will be elected. If you do vote, doesn't that mean you are unbiblically wrestling against flesh and blood? Where do you draw the line?

                I don’t know what the “god of public acceptance” is, but I do know that the god of this world is running the show 2 Thessalonians 2:7 KJV For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. It is more than likely that you and I differ on just how he is at work. 2 Corinthians 2:11 KJV Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

                Convinced that you are serving the Lord you have fallen into a snare. The truth is this; the god of this world could care less if a baby is saved from an abortionist or if he dies.
                On the contrary. The god of this world couldn't care less if every abortion was outlawed so long as every Christian agreed to the killing of just one.
                Satan is using abortion (and a number of other distractions) to stop man from preaching the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV), the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth (Romans 1:16 KJV).
                Here you bring up the gospel. The death penalty is at the heart of the gospel. If you don't advocate the death penalty for murder (ie. abortion) you are saying there is something wrong with God's morality. Additionally, I do more evangelizing when I protest abortion than any other time. It's a perfect opportunity. The people I talk to are advocating the murder of the innocent at that very moment. What better opportunity to convince a person he is a sinner in need of a Saviour?
                You are being neutralized. You’ve been taken away from being an ambassador for Christ committed with the word of reconciliation (2 Corinthians 5:14-21 KJV), to make manifest God’s will that all men be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4 KJV) by being distracted and consumed by the works of the flesh of man.

                2 Corinthians 4:3-5 KJV But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
                In Romans Paul tells us the governing authority is God's minister who bears not the sword in vain. God's ministers are therefore supposed to advocate the death penalty for murder. Do you?

                Paul tells us: The will of God is that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:1-6 KJV I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

                So the first step is that men be saved and then come unto the knowledge of the truth. And because Christians differ on how one is saved, just so I'm clear on where BEL stands, how is one saved? And what is the knowledge of the truth and how do I get it?
                See http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...39&postcount=1
                WARNING: Graphic video here.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jefferson View Post
                  Yes. That link is the first 2 chapters of Bob's 11 chapter book covering that topic.
                  That is hardly a discussion. Does BEL DISCUSS Mystery vs. Prophecy and if not why not?

                  So you think the few Christians in Germany who broke the law by hiding Jews were acting unbiblically? You think the Christians in America who broke southern law by partaking in the underground railroad to free black slaves were acting unbiblically? You think all Christian congressmen who are trying to pass godly legislation should resign because they are wrestling "against flesh and blood" unbiblically?

                  Do you vote? Or do you just pray that godly leaders will be elected. If you do vote, doesn't that mean you are unbiblically wrestling against flesh and blood? Where do you draw the line?
                  Nice dodge after I posted scripture from our apostle showing that we, in the Body of Christ, wrestle not with flesh and blood and no man that warreth entangleth himself in the affairs of this life. What does the scripture say, Jefferson? Why don’t you stop trying to distract from the words of Paul to us? I refuse to play this game with you. Focus. Answer the questions that I asked you and do so with scripture. You should have no problem proving from Paul’s writings what our battle as members of the Body of Christ is and what it isn’t, what we are to arm ourselves with and what are we to be saying to a never dying world. What is the word of reconciliation to which we are ambassadors?

                  On the contrary. The god of this world couldn't care less if every abortion was outlawed so long as every Christian agreed to the killing of just one.
                  Again, ignoring the scriptures. Don't you ever get tired of not believing what the word says? What does the god of this world want to stop people from hearing and believing? Hint in the form of a question: What can save a man from the wrath to come?

                  Here you bring up the gospel. The death penalty is at the heart of the gospel. If you don't advocate the death penalty for murder (ie. abortion) you are saying there is something wrong with God's morality.
                  Romans 1:16 KJV For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

                  Do you see that? IT (the gospel of Christ) is the power of God unto salvation. Yes, the death penalty is at the heart of the gospel. The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23 KJV) and Christ took the payoff! He died in our stead! (Romans 4:25 KJV , 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV , 2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV ). I deserved death and I received life by believing on the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ. While we were enemies: Romans 5:10 KJV For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. Christ died for the ungodly. Romans 5:6 KJV For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly, while we were yet sinners:Romans 5:8 KJV But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

                  And still you try and make it about something else.

                  Additionally, I do more evangelizing when I protest abortion than any other time. It's a perfect opportunity. The people I talk to are advocating the murder of the innocent at that very moment. What better opportunity to convince a person he is a sinner in need of a Saviour?
                  So you preach reconciliation? Great! Please share what you tell them on any given protest.

                  In Romans Paul tells us the governing authority is God's minister who bears not the sword in vain. God's ministers are therefore supposed to advocate the death penalty for murder. Do you?
                  I am an ambassador for Christ and I am committed with the word of reconciliation. What I advocate has everything to do with the sound words committed to the apostle Paul to usward.

                  Where is the gospel of Christ? Where is the scripture? I'll ask again, how is one saved? What is the knowledge of the truth and how do I get it?
                  Last edited by heir; May 19th, 2010, 10:03 AM. Reason: added scripture
                  2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

                  Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by heir View Post
                    That is hardly a discussion. Does BEL DISCUSS Mystery vs. Prophecy and if not why not?
                    Sure. It has been discussed before on his show. If you want to discuss it just call into the show. But wait until next month. Bob will not be hosting the show this month. He's busy working on another project.

                    Nice dodge after I posted scripture from our apostle showing that we, in the Body of Christ, wrestle not with flesh and blood and no man that warreth entangleth himself in the affairs of this life. What does the scripture say, Jefferson?
                    Acts 25:11 - Paul appeals to Caesar. He didn't just preach the gospel to Festus and let the chips fall where they may.

                    Acts 16:37 - "But Paul said to them, 'They have beaten us openly, uncondemned Romans, [and] have thrown [us] into prison. And now do they put us out secretly? No indeed! Let them come themselves and get us out.'"

                    Here Paul sees the value in publicly embarrassing the magistrates instead of just preaching the gospel to them.

                    1 Tim. 1:8-11 - "But we know that the law [is] good if one uses it lawfully, knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for [the] lawless and insubordinate, for [the] ungodly and for sinners, for [the] unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust."

                    Kinda looks like Paul is advocating a Bibliocracy here. That's WAY more than just preaching the gospel.

                    Now, I answered your questions with verses. It's now your turn to answer my questions which you have so far avoided. I asked you 6 questions which you dodged. Here they are again:

                    1 - So you think the few Christians in Germany who broke the law by hiding Jews were acting unbiblically?

                    2 - You think the Christians in America who broke southern law by partaking in the underground railroad to free black slaves were acting unbiblically?

                    3 - You think all Christian congressmen who are trying to pass godly legislation should resign because they are wrestling "against flesh and blood" unbiblically?

                    4 - Do you vote? Or do you just pray that godly leaders will be elected.

                    5 - If you do vote, doesn't that mean you are unbiblically wrestling against flesh and blood? Where do you draw the line?

                    6 - In Romans Paul tells us the governing authority is God's minister who bears not the sword in vain. God's ministers are therefore supposed to advocate the death penalty for murder. Do you?

                    While I'm at it, here's another one...

                    7 - All the American Christians who fought in World War 2 so that you could preach the gospel in freedom - Did they unbiblically wrestle against flesh and blood for your benefit?

                    Again, ignoring the scriptures. Don't you ever get tired of not believing what the word says? What does the god of this world want to stop people from hearing and believing?
                    The gospel of course but he also wants people to stop hearing and believing the law which was our tutor to bring us to Christ (Gal. 3:24). Without God's law convicting people of sin (and therefore their need of a Saviour) the gospel becomes much less effective. For example, if people grow up in a nation where adultery is legal and you are trying to convince an adulterer that his sin of adultery is so horrible that it takes God's own blood to forgive him of it, he is going to look at you like you're from Mars. But if he grew up in a nation where adultery was illegal or even had the death penalty for adultery like the Bible requires, your message would sound much more like the truth to him.

                    So working for laws to recriminalize adultery is Christian work. Besides, if adultery was illegal do you have any idea how many fewer murders would happen in this country? How many fewer suicides? How many fewer assaults? How many fewer children growing up with only 1 parent? Do you even care? Or are you like the priest and the Levite in Luke 10 who walked by the assaulted man because it wasn't "ministry" work? (BTW, that's question #8. Please answer all 8)

                    So you preach reconciliation? Great! Please share what you tell them on any given protest.
                    I try to lead into the gospel by saying something like, "Sir, you're actually very lucky. Most people don't get an opportunity to see how sinful they are so clearly. Here you are publicly defending the murder of innocent babies. Can you name even one thing more vile? This is why God cannot allow someone like you into Heaven because the wages of sin is death, BUT..."

                    And then I go into the gospel.

                    Where is the gospel of Christ? Where is the scripture? I'll ask again, how is one saved? What is the knowledge of the truth and how do I get it?
                    Your response of… “The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23 KJV) and Christ took the payoff! He died in our stead! (Romans 4:25 KJV , 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV , 2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV ). I deserved death and I received life by believing on the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ. While we were enemies: Romans 5:10 KJV For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. Christ died for the ungodly. Romans 5:6 KJV For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly, while we were yet sinners:Romans 5:8 KJV But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”…was accurate. I would also add Rom. 10:9 “if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.”
                    Last edited by Jefferson; May 20th, 2010, 01:37 PM.
                    WARNING: Graphic video here.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jefferson View Post
                      Sure. It has been discussed before on his show. If you want to discuss it just call into the show. But wait until next month. Bob will not be hosting the show this month. He's busy working on another project.
                      This is good news. So BEL no longer avoids doctrinal discussions on the show? I recall in the past, Bob telling callers that he does not discuss doctrine on the show. And what would you say the percentage of time is that is currently spent in Body doctrine compared to that of other things?
                      Acts 25:11 - Paul appeals to Caesar.
                      Acts 23:11 KJV And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.
                      He didn't just preach the gospel to Festus and let the chips fall where they may.
                      Paul was not supposed to preach to Festus. 2 Corinthians 12:6 KJV For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. So even though Paul spilled the beans that he was going to be sent far hence to the cursed Gentiles in Acts 22:21 KJV And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles. And that is what stirred up all the trouble for him, Acts 22:22 KJV And they gave him audience unto this word, and then lifted up their voices, and said, Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live. We don’t see until the close of Acts, when the people’s ears are waxed gross that Paul goes to the alien Gentile, like you and me! If you go back, you can see that Paul didn’t tell Agrippa anything about “I will send thee far hence to the Gentiles”, but that of “resurrection” in Acts 26. Fascinating details told and withheld so that Paul could get to Rome!

                      One must see the distinctions of the Gentiles that were preached to at the time Paul was going to the Jew first and also to the Greek: Romans 1:16 KJV (drawing in that remnant according to the election of Grace- see Romans 11) and that of the “Gentiles” of Acts 22:21 KJV. While all Greeks were Gentiles, not all Gentiles were Greeks! Because you have been told that you are the “remnant”, those specific Gentiles of Romans 11(no way that’s you or I BTW) and that like the Galatians, you have set yourself up to think that the law was YOUR tutor to bring you to Christ and therefore you work feverishly holding others under the law as you said here:
                      The gospel of course but he also wants people to stop hearing and believing the law which was our tutor to bring us to Christ (Gal. 3:24).
                      (”the gospel of course” and yet BEL spends little to no time discussing the gospel of Christ, the power of God unto salvation, with a never dying world. It’s puzzling and sad.) While it was true of Paul and these Galatians, that the law was THEIR tutor to bring them to Christ, it is not true of you and me. We have NEVER been under the Law of Moses or in the covenants of promise! We were of those cursed, idol worshipping Gentiles of time past, the ones Paul became a prisoner for! Like that of the Ephesians 3:1 KJV For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

                      Ephesians 2:11 KJV Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

                      1 Tim. 1:8-11 - "But we know that the law [is] good if one uses it lawfully, knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for [the] lawless and insubordinate, for [the] ungodly and for sinners, for [the] unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust."
                      Romans 5:12-13 KJV Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 2 Corinthians 5:14 KJV For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 2 Corinthians 5:15 KJV And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.2 Corinthians 5:16 KJV Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

                      Now, I answered your questions with verses. It's now your turn to answer my questions which you have so far avoided. I asked you 6 questions which you dodged.
                      I haven’t dodged your questions. They are ALL a distraction from the fact that Paul does not instruct us to be political activists wrestling with flesh and blood. It is not the vocation of the Body of Christ, the one hope of our calling. The things that are going on in the world are distractions whether they tug on my heart strings or not, no matter how I “feel” about them.
                      Here they are again:
                      I have no problem answering you questions here, but you have a huge problem. You cannot show in Romans-Philemon where Paul instructed the Body of Christ to change laws or become political activists.

                      1 - So you think the few Christians in Germany who broke the law by hiding Jews were acting unbiblically?
                      They did what they thought they should do. What does that have to do with the vocation of the Body of Christ and your continual condemnation for not fighting your cause as if it is the calling of the Body of Christ??

                      2 - You think the Christians in America who broke southern law by partaking in the underground railroad to free black slaves were acting unbiblically?
                      They did what they thought they should do at the time. What does this have to do with the vocation of the Body of Christ and your continual accusations against those who are following the sound doctrine of the apostle Paul TO us?

                      3 - You think all Christian congressmen who are trying to pass godly legislation should resign because they are wrestling "against flesh and blood" unbiblically?
                      They can do what they like. What does this have to do with the vocation of the Body of Christ?

                      4 - Do you vote? Or do you just pray that godly leaders will be elected.
                      It’s none of your business if I vote or not, but no. I do not involve myself in the politics of this earth. Changing laws is not our vocation in the Body of Christ and therefore is not my focus.

                      5 - If you do vote, doesn't that mean you are unbiblically wrestling against flesh and blood? Where do you draw the line?
                      N/A The line was drawn 2000 years ago when the Lord Jesus Christ died for me, was buried and rose again for my justification as revealed to Paul by the risen glorified Lord Jesus Christ to us.

                      6 - In Romans Paul tells us the governing authority is God's minister who bears not the sword in vain. God's ministers are therefore supposed to advocate the death penalty for murder.
                      I agree with Romans 13.
                      Do you?
                      A murderer should be tried and sentenced by the governing authorities. I am not God’s minister bearing a sword, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil, but an ambassador for Christ using the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. The only offensive tool in the arsenal of the whole armor of God that I am instructed to use is the word of God and I use it rightly divided.
                      While I'm at it, here's another one...

                      7 - All the American Christians who fought in World War 2 so that you could preach the gospel in freedom - Did they unbiblically wrestle against flesh and blood for your benefit?
                      They did what they had to do at the time. What does this have to do with the vocation of the Body of Christ?

                      So working for laws to recriminalize adultery is Christian work.
                      If so, then you should have no problem showing where Paul instructed the Body of Christ to become entangled in the affairs of this life, focus on the things of this earth and become a political machine. And how much time should I dedicate to it?
                      Besides, if adultery was illegal do you have any idea how many fewer murders would happen in this country? How many fewer suicides? How many fewer assaults? How many fewer children growing up with only 1 parent? Do you even care? Or are you like the priest and the Levite in Luke 10 who walked by the assaulted man because it wasn't "ministry" work? (BTW, that's question #8. Please answer all 8)
                      The implication that I don’t care is yet another attempt by you (and it’s not working) to distract from the fact that you have NOTHING from Paul that INSTRUCTS US to be political activists which you all spend what appears to be the greatest amount of your time and effort on (going by the list of shows and content on BEL), which is putting your cause over that of the vocation by which you’re called. Is it not?

                      Ephesians 4:1-6 KJV I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
                      I try to lead into the gospel by saying something like, "Sir, you're actually very lucky. Most people don't get an opportunity to see how sinful they are so clearly. Here you are publicly defending the murder of innocent babies. Can you name even one thing more vile? This is why God cannot allow someone like you into Heaven because the wages of sin is death, BUT..."

                      And then I go into the gospel.
                      I’m having a hard time believing this. Sorry, just being honest. Is this where I’m supposed to ignore that you yell and call names to these people, many times through a megaphone? It took me asking you how one is saved more than once for you to answer how one is saved and when you did; you cut and pasted a response I gave to you. So pardon me if I don’t believe that you present “the gospel”. If this is something you share with the lost nearly everyday, surely you have it down, right on the tip of your tongue? What do you tell people when you are yelling in front of Planned Parenthood? What do you tell them when you are yelling in front of their homes? What is your focus on? Do you share the gospel of the grace of God to the people standing next to you who are lost in the religious denominational system, that are not trusting in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ? Do you discuss rightly dividing the word of truth at all out on the protests or is that put on the back burner because you fight the same cause?

                      Be honest, Jefferson. I have been honest with you.

                      Your response of… “The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23 KJV) and Christ took the payoff! He died in our stead! (Romans 4:25 KJV , 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV , 2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV ). I deserved death and I received life by believing on the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ. While we were enemies: Romans 5:10 KJV For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. Christ died for the ungodly. Romans 5:6 KJV For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly, while we were yet sinners: Romans 5:8 KJV But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”…was accurate.
                      Again: I asked you how is one saved, what is the knowledge of the truth and how do I get it. You gave me a link to an SOF, but since you brought it in here: A revised Nicene Creed with no scripture references, no gospel of Christ, no distinction between that of Israel and the Body of Christ; with different gospels, marching orders, destinations. Nothing. Just what was that supposed to show me?

                      To quote your guest host (one of many quotes from the show that went unaddressed by you): GJ
                      “What could be more important than the sanctity of human life? I don’t think there’s anything more important that they should be talking about on any given Sunday!”
                      How about, that unbelievers are dying everyday and will suffer eternal judgment without believing in what Christ has already accomplished on the cross in their stead. They’ll die an eternal death/separation from God even though His blood has been shed/atonement has already been provided for ALL, dying with their sins already forgiven by the faith of Christ and His work on the cross yet they did not believe on Him for salvation.

                      2 Corinthians 4:3-4 KJV But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

                      Romans 10:14 KJV How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

                      2 Timothy 4:2 KJV Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.



                      And this I pray: Philippians 1:9-10 KJV And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.
                      Last edited by heir; May 23rd, 2010, 09:58 AM.
                      2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

                      Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        heir, you seem to me to be so heavenly minded you’re no earthly good. If a neighbor asked you what your opinion of our current laws on abortion are, what would you say to him?

                        Originally posted by heir View Post
                        So BEL no longer avoids doctrinal discussions on the show? I recall in the past, Bob telling callers that he does not discuss doctrine on the show.
                        You might have been thinking about his TV show where 90% of his audience were nonchristians. If Bob discussed nothing but Bible doctrine, he would have lost 90% of his audience he was trying to convert. Instead his Nielson ratings were higher than Conan O’Brian’s. Now that the show is on a Christian radio station, he opens the topics up to doctrine a bit more.
                        And what would you say the percentage of time is that is currently spent in Body doctrine compared to that of other things?
                        I’m sure anything less than 100% percent would be anathema to you. Is he allowed to give the call-in number to the show or is that not part of preaching the gospel?

                        While it was true of Paul and these Galatians, that the law was THEIR tutor to bring them to Christ, it is not true of you and me. We have NEVER been under the Law of Moses or in the covenants of promise!
                        When Paul writes that children should obey their parents (Ephesians 6:1; Colossians 3:20) do you actually take that fact to imply that only children of Christian parents are under moral obligation to obey their parents? The fact that only Israel was given a special revelation of certain political laws does not mean that only Israel was bound to keep such laws. The Gentiles who were not given the law still have the work of the law written on their hearts (see Romans 2:12-16). In fact Romans 1:31 says that those who commit abominations such as homosexuality know that "those who practice such things are worthy of death."

                        Please pay close attention to Deuteronomy 4:5-8: "Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as Jehovah my God commanded me, so that you should do so in the land where you go to possess it. And you shall keep and do them, for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
                        For who is a great nation whose God is coming near to them, as Jehovah our God is, in all our calling on Him? And who is a great nation whose statutes and judgments are so righteous as all this Law which I set before you today?"

                        That passage shows that Israel's law was supposed to be a model for all the gentile nations around her.

                        The plan was that all nations would flow into Zion saying, "Come and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem." (Isaiah 2:2,3)

                        God obviously required the gentile nations to obey his law as Lev 18:24-28 shows: "Do not defile yourselves in any of these things. For in all these the nations are defiled, which I cast out before you. And the land is defiled. Therefore I visit its wickedness on it, and the land itself vomits out those who live in it. You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations, neither the native, nor any stranger that lives among you. For the men of the land who were before you have done all these abominations, and the land is defiled. You shall not do these so that the land may not spew you out also when you defile it, as it spewed out the nations that were before you."


                        I quoted 1 Tim. 1:8-11 and you replied…
                        Romans 5:12-13 KJV Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 2 Corinthians 5:14 KJV For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 2 Corinthians 5:15 KJV And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.2 Corinthians 5:16 KJV Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
                        How is that a commentary on 1 Tim. 1:8-11?

                        I haven’t dodged your questions. They are ALL a distraction from the fact that Paul does not instruct us to be political activists wrestling with flesh and blood.
                        Christians are required by God to perform different tasks depending upon the times, the country or even the city in which they live. For example, look at the different commands given the different churches in Revelation chapter 2: God told the persecuted church at Smyrna only to "be faithful to death." But to the other churches, God had many different commands such as "do the first works" (v. 5) and to overcome and keep God's works to the end" (v. 26).

                        The circumstances the first century church was under was very different than the circumstance you and I are under. How would Christians who were persecuted in the Soviet Gulags supposed to be involved in social issues? Such a task would not have only been impossible, it would also have been foolish. Persecuted Christians have in the past worshipped in catacombs. During those times they weren't exactly open-air street preachers. Do you think those Christians were sinning for protecting their lives like that when many Christians in America today do perform such public street evangelism? Would you tell them that it shouldn't make any difference how hard it is? Would you tell the persecuted church of Smyrna in Revelation chapter 2 that God was wrong for not giving them the same commands that He gave the other churches?

                        In the Soviet Union Christians were forbidden to set up benefit societies, offer material aid to their members, organize children's groups for prayer and other purposes or general biblical, lilterary or handicraft groups for the purpose of work or religious instruction or to arrange excursions and kindergartens, nor open libraries or reading rooms, nor start hospitals or provide medical aid. All these things Christians in America do. Do you think every single one of those persecuted Russian Christians should have all risked their lives and done those things anyway? No? Well guess what? The first century church, to whom Paul wrote, was born in an era of the same kind of oppression.

                        In a nation under repressive domination, the most immediate need of the Christian community is Christian literature, worship, prayer and keeping their meager efforts secret, not social reform that has little chance of success.

                        However, once the Soviet Union fell, Christians were at the forefront of many of the efforts to topple communism and bring about reform. When they had an opportunity to institute reforms, they took it. Laszlo Tokes, the Hungarian pastor who sparked the Romanian revolution, stated that Eastern Europe was not just in a political revolution but a religious renaissance. The reports that reached the western news media had references to "Jesus," the "Christian spirit," and Czechoslovakia's role as the "spiritual crossroads of Europe."

                        It was not enough for these Christians to be free to worship. They also wanted to participate in every facet of their nation's life. The church in Czechoslovakia did not take a hands-off approach to social issues once the Iron Curtain began to fall. The Christian leadership saw it as their duty to bring about change to the broader culture.

                        Do you think those Eastern European Christians were sinning? Additionally, our founding fathers sure did effect some political change and many of them were Christians. Do you think our Christian founding fathers were behaving unbiblically?




                        It is not the vocation of the Body of Christ, the one hope of our calling. The things that are going on in the world are distractions whether they tug on my heart strings or not, no matter how I “feel” about them. I have no problem answering you questions here, but you have a huge problem. You cannot show in Romans-Philemon where Paul instructed the Body of Christ to change laws or become political activists.
                        Sure I can. 2 Cor. 10:4-6 says, “For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
                        casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.

                        They did what they thought they should do.
                        They did what they thought they should do at the time.
                        They can do what they like.
                        They did what they had to do at the time.
                        Why do give them a pass and not us? Why the double standard?

                        It’s none of your business if I vote or not, but no. I do not involve myself in the politics of this earth.
                        Okay, heir. So when we are no longer allowed to preach the gospel in public because people like you did nothing to keep this nation free, I’ll know who to blame. Thanks for the heads up.


                        I agree with Romans 13. A murderer should be tried and sentenced by the governing authorities.
                        But the death penalty is a political issue! By expressing your opinion on it you are getting involved in politics and wrestling with flesh and blood! Repent heir!!!

                        I’m having a hard time believing this. Sorry, just being honest.
                        I used to go to a Baptist church where we would evangelize surrounding neighborhoods every Thursday night starting at 7pm. I used the Romans Road. Perhaps you’ve heard of it. I used a cheat sheet so I would be able to find the next verse quickly and also not accidentally skip a verse. Somewhere before my 100th gospel presentation I didn’t need the cheat sheet anymore because the Romans Road became like a song you can’t get out of your head. I still know it today like my ABCs. I’m sure it will still be in my head when I’m 90. But you’ve got your mind made up about me anyway heir. I’m wasting my time with you.
                        WARNING: Graphic video here.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Jefferson View Post
                          heir, you seem to me to be so heavenly minded you’re no earthly good.
                          Thanks, Jefferson.
                          Would you say the same to the apostle Paul?

                          2 Corinthians 5:1-2 KJV For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

                          Philippians 3:20 KJV For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

                          Colossians 3:1-4 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.


                          If a neighbor asked you what your opinion of our current laws on abortion are, what would you say to him?
                          The current laws are a testimony to the truth that the god of this world is in charge. This world is evil. It’s been this way long before we were here and it will get worse until the Lord is ruling with a rod of iron.

                          2 Timothy 3:13 KJV But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

                          You may get little victories, Jefferson. And I guess they are just enough to keep you distracted from why we are all here.

                          You might have been thinking about his TV show where 90% of his audience were nonchristians. If Bob discussed nothing but Bible doctrine, he would have lost 90% of his audience he was trying to convert. Instead his Nielson ratings were higher than Conan O’Brian’s. Now that the show is on a Christian radio station, he opens the topics up to doctrine a bit more.
                          I used to watch the TV show. As to the current BEL, I don’t hear many sound words from the apostle Paul, no word of reconciliation, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself not imputing their trespasses unto them. Why not tell the world that God is not mad at them today, that He fixed it so He could be nice to them, that salvation is available to ALL men regardless of their moral condition; no matter what they were doing when they were there? Why withhold the good news? Isn’t sharing the good news why we’re all here? Where’s the good news?


                          I’m sure anything less than 100% percent would be anathema to you. Is he allowed to give the call-in number to the show or is that not part of preaching the gospel?


                          When Paul writes that children should obey their parents (Ephesians 6:1; Colossians 3:20) do you actually take that fact to imply that only children of Christian parents are under moral obligation to obey their parents?
                          They aren’t “under” anything, but grace. My kids are NOW hearing about the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ that was poured out on us. What a difference it has made in the past several months!

                          The fact that only Israel was given a special revelation of certain political laws does not mean that only Israel was bound to keep such laws. The Gentiles who were not given the law still have the work of the law written on their hearts (see Romans 2:12-16). In fact Romans 1:31 says that those who commit abominations such as homosexuality know that "those who practice such things are worthy of death."
                          Are we bound to keep any laws? And why are you so obsessed with knowing man after the flesh contrary to what our apostle spoke in 2 Corinthians 5! 2 Corinthians 5:14-16 KJV For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.16 KJV Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


                          Which one among you isn’t a good for nothing sinner without the righteousness of God through the Lord Jesus Christ?

                          Please pay close attention to Deuteronomy 4:5-8: "Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as Jehovah my God commanded me, so that you should do so in the land where you go to possess it. And you shall keep and do them, for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
                          For who is a great nation whose God is coming near to them, as Jehovah our God is, in all our calling on Him? And who is a great nation whose statutes and judgments are so righteous as all this Law which I set before you today?"

                          That passage shows that Israel's law was supposed to be a model for all the gentile nations around her.

                          The plan was that all nations would flow into Zion saying, "Come and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem." (Isaiah 2:2,3)

                          God obviously required the gentile nations to obey his law as Lev 18:24-28 shows: "Do not defile yourselves in any of these things. For in all these the nations are defiled, which I cast out before you. And the land is defiled. Therefore I visit its wickedness on it, and the land itself vomits out those who live in it. You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations, neither the native, nor any stranger that lives among you. For the men of the land who were before you have done all these abominations, and the land is defiled. You shall not do these so that the land may not spew you out also when you defile it, as it spewed out the nations that were before you."
                          Yes, Israel will be the head and not the tail. They will be a light unto the Gentiles. You don't believe that we are to bring about their earthly kingdom, do you? Do you believe that is why we are here? It sure appears that way.


                          I quoted 1 Tim. 1:8-11 and you replied…How is that a commentary on 1 Tim. 1:8-11?
                          We know no man after the flesh! So while you walk around looking, pointing the finger, judging men by the sins of the flesh, the Bible says that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself not imputing their trespasses and fixed it so that He could be nice to even a wretched sinner like that man that you spend all your time yelling at. He saved you didn’t He? Have you forgotten just how it is that you were saved? Is it by works of righteousness which you had done or by the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ? Look at our pattern Paul! The chief of sinners, the worst of the worst, a blasphemer, and yet by GOD’S GRACE Paul could be saved where in neither time past nor the ages to come could he be.

                          Christians are required by God to perform different tasks depending upon the times, the country or even the city in which they live. For example, look at the different commands given the different churches in Revelation chapter 2: God told the persecuted church at Smyrna only to "be faithful to death." But to the other churches, God had many different commands such as "do the first works" (v. 5) and to overcome and keep God's works to the end" (v. 26).
                          Please tell me you don’t think that we are of those FUTURE churches in Revelation!! Jefferson, where is your right division???? When has God ever called us to bring about the earthly kingdom? We need not overcome, the Lord Jesus Christ overcame for us! We need not endure to the end, the Lord Jesus Christ endured for us! You either don’t get it or you refuse to. Paul tells Timothy 1 Timothy 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

                          The circumstances the first century church was under was very different than the circumstance you and I are under. How would Christians who were persecuted in the Soviet Gulags supposed to be involved in social issues? Such a task would not have only been impossible, it would also have been foolish. Persecuted Christians have in the past worshipped in catacombs. During those times they weren't exactly open-air street preachers. Do you think those Christians were sinning for protecting their lives like that when many Christians in America today do perform such public street evangelism? Would you tell them that it shouldn't make any difference how hard it is? Would you tell the persecuted church of Smyrna in Revelation chapter 2 that God was wrong for not giving them the same commands that He gave the other churches?

                          In the Soviet Union Christians were forbidden to set up benefit societies, offer material aid to their members, organize children's groups for prayer and other purposes or general biblical, lilterary or handicraft groups for the purpose of work or religious instruction or to arrange excursions and kindergartens, nor open libraries or reading rooms, nor start hospitals or provide medical aid. All these things Christians in America do. Do you think every single one of those persecuted Russian Christians should have all risked their lives and done those things anyway? No? Well guess what? The first century church, to whom Paul wrote, was born in an era of the same kind of oppression.

                          In a nation under repressive domination, the most immediate need of the Christian community is Christian literature, worship, prayer and keeping their meager efforts secret, not social reform that has little chance of success.

                          However, once the Soviet Union fell, Christians were at the forefront of many of the efforts to topple communism and bring about reform. When they had an opportunity to institute reforms, they took it. Laszlo Tokes, the Hungarian pastor who sparked the Romanian revolution, stated that Eastern Europe was not just in a political revolution but a religious renaissance. The reports that reached the western news media had references to "Jesus," the "Christian spirit," and Czechoslovakia's role as the "spiritual crossroads of Europe."

                          It was not enough for these Christians to be free to worship. They also wanted to participate in every facet of their nation's life. The church in Czechoslovakia did not take a hands-off approach to social issues once the Iron Curtain began to fall. The Christian leadership saw it as their duty to bring about change to the broader culture.

                          Do you think those Eastern European Christians were sinning? Additionally, our founding fathers sure did effect some political change and many of them were Christians. Do you think our Christian founding fathers were behaving unbiblically?
                          I've answered enough of these questions from you and what now? more of the same.


                          Sure I can. 2 Cor. 10:4-6 says, “For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
                          casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.
                          What are the weapons of our warfare?
                          Why do give them a pass and not us? Why the double standard?
                          No double standard. You at BEL claim to know that we are in the dispensation of the grace of God. You claim to know that by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves, yet you spend a GREAT deal of your time focused on the works of the flesh and then rail against those who don't take on YOUR cause as if it's THE cause, THE call of the Body of Christ.


                          Okay, heir. So when we are no longer allowed to preach the gospel in public because people like you did nothing to keep this nation free, I’ll know who to blame. Thanks for the heads up.
                          it has nothing to do with me.

                          But the death penalty is a political issue! By expressing your opinion on it you are getting involved in politics and wrestling with flesh and blood! Repent heir!!!
                          We all deserved death and by the grace of God what have we gotten instead?

                          I used to go to a Baptist church where we would evangelize surrounding neighborhoods every Thursday night starting at 7pm. I used the Romans Road. Perhaps you’ve heard of it. I used a cheat sheet so I would be able to find the next verse quickly and also not accidentally skip a verse. Somewhere before my 100th gospel presentation I didn’t need the cheat sheet anymore because the Romans Road became like a song you can’t get out of your head. I still know it today like my ABCs. I’m sure it will still be in my head when I’m 90. But you’ve got your mind made up about me anyway heir.
                          What do you tell people when you are yelling in front of Planned Parenthood?

                          What do you tell them when you are yelling in front of their homes?

                          What is your focus on?

                          Do you share the gospel of the grace of God to the people standing next to you who are lost in the religious denominational system, that are not trusting in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ?

                          Do you discuss rightly dividing the word of truth at all out on the protests or is that put on the back burner because you fight the same cause? To put it another way, when one of your friends from some denominational church says things that are contrary to the sound words of Paul do you try and restore him?

                          I'm wasting my time with you.
                          It's too bad you feel that way.

                          I guess we will have to wait and see just which works were of gold, silver, precious stones and which were wood, hay and stubble. I happen to think that you are frustrating the grace of God.

                          1 Corinthians 3:10-15 KJV According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
                          Last edited by heir; May 27th, 2010, 10:49 AM. Reason: added on
                          2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

                          Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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                          • #14
                            Again:

                            To quote your guest host (one of many quotes from the show that went unaddressed by you): GJ

                            What could be more important than the sanctity of human life? I don’t think there’s anything more important that they should be talking about on any given Sunday!
                            How about, that unbelievers are dying everyday and will suffer eternal judgment without believing in what Christ has already accomplished on the cross in their stead. They’ll die an eternal death/separation from God even though His blood has been shed/atonement has already been provided for ALL, dying with their sins already forgiven by the faith of Christ and His work on the cross yet they did not believe on Him for salvation.

                            Do you have nothing to say about this?
                            2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

                            Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by heir View Post
                              Thanks, Jefferson.
                              Would you say the same to the apostle Paul?
                              Paul would agree with me:
                              1 Timothy 1:8–11 - "But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers..."
                              .
                              The current laws are a testimony to the truth that the god of this world is in charge. This world is evil. It’s been this way long before we were here and it will get worse until the Lord is ruling with a rod of iron.

                              2 Timothy 3:13 KJV But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

                              You may get little victories, Jefferson. And I guess they are just enough to keep you distracted from why we are all here.
                              So if you have a daughter, you don't want me to try to help get tougher laws against child molesters? You would actually care that little about your own daughter?

                              I used to watch the TV show. As to the current BEL, I don’t hear many sound words from the apostle Paul, no word of reconciliation, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself not imputing their trespasses unto them. Why not tell the world that God is not mad at them today, that He fixed it so He could be nice to them, that salvation is available to ALL men regardless of their moral condition; no matter what they were doing when they were there? Why withhold the good news? Isn’t sharing the good news why we’re all here? Where’s the good news?
                              As to the percentage that Bob chooses to devote to the gospel compared to social issues, I look forward to listening to your conversation with him on his show in June.


                              They aren’t “under” anything, but grace. My kids are NOW hearing about the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ that was poured out on us. What a difference it has made in the past several months!
                              Should non-Christian children obey their parents or not?

                              Are we bound to keep any laws?
                              No, but we're not talking about Christians. We're talking about non-Christians.

                              Yes, Israel will be the head and not the tail.
                              You missed the point of the passage. It shows that non-Christians are under the law.
                              They will be a light unto the Gentiles.
                              Just as the law is to be a tutor to non-Christians to bring them to Christ.
                              You don't believe that we are to bring about their earthly kingdom, do you? Do you believe that is why we are here? It sure appears that way.
                              God will set up His millennial reign in His own time. That doesn't mean we should refuse to fight a man raping a woman because it would be "wrestling with the flesh." Would you fight him or would you walk away so that you would not "wrestle with the flesh"?

                              We know no man after the flesh! So while you walk around looking, pointing the finger, judging men by the sins of the flesh, the Bible says that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself not imputing their trespasses and fixed it so that He could be nice to even a wretched sinner like that man that you spend all your time yelling at. He saved you didn’t He? Have you forgotten just how it is that you were saved? Is it by works of righteousness which you had done or by the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ? Look at our pattern Paul! The chief of sinners, the worst of the worst, a blasphemer, and yet by GOD’S GRACE Paul could be saved where in neither time past nor the ages to come could he be.
                              When you share the gospel with an unbeliever, do you tell him he needs forgiveness for his sins? If so, what do you say to him if he says he doesn't think he has done anything that needs forgiven?

                              Please tell me you don’t think that we are of those FUTURE churches in Revelation!! Jefferson, where is your right division????
                              Please quote me where I said the churches mentioned in Revelation refer to the body of Christ.
                              When has God ever called us to bring about the earthly kingdom? We need not overcome, the Lord Jesus Christ overcame for us! We need not endure to the end, the Lord Jesus Christ endured for us! You either don’t get it or you refuse to. Paul tells Timothy 1 Timothy 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
                              You're avoiding the point. That passage shows God doesn't have the exact same expectations for every Christian in every nation. Do you actually expect Christians in Iran to preach the gospel as openly as you do?

                              I've answered enough of these questions from you and what now? more of the same.
                              You didn't "answer" them. You just avoided them by saying, "They did what they thought was right at the time." Yes they did, but do YOU think they did what was right at the time?

                              What are the weapons of our warfare?
                              A big one is the word of God which contains the law which is a non-Christian's tutor to bring him to Christ.

                              What do you tell people when you are yelling in front of Planned Parenthood?
                              There's not a Planned Parenthood in my area.

                              What do you tell them when you are yelling in front of their homes?
                              That supporting murder is sin. And that God cannot let an unforgiven sinner into Heaven.

                              What is your focus on?
                              To the abortionist, whom we protest right in front of his house in his neighborhood, my focus is on trying to get him to stop murdering babies.

                              Do you share the gospel of the grace of God to the people standing next to you who are lost in the religious denominational system, that are not trusting in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ?
                              Do you discuss rightly dividing the word of truth at all out on the protests or is that put on the back burner because you fight the same cause? To put it another way, when one of your friends from some denominational church says things that are contrary to the sound words of Paul do you try and restore him?
                              All of my fellow protesters go to a Pauline dispensationalist church pastored by TOL member Adambassador. See http://drbf.blogspot.com/2010/05/great-commission.html

                              Finally, one of the guests on the show said, "What could be more important than the sanctity of human life? I don’t think there’s anything more important that they should be talking about on any given Sunday!"

                              You replied...
                              How about, that unbelievers are dying everyday and will suffer eternal judgment without believing in what Christ has already accomplished on the cross in their stead. They’ll die an eternal death/separation from God even though His blood has been shed/atonement has already been provided for ALL, dying with their sins already forgiven by the faith of Christ and His work on the cross yet they did not believe on Him for salvation.

                              Do you have nothing to say about this?
                              Sure do. Get ready to throw a hissy fit heir. You're going to LOVE this one: It is more important for society for Christians to stop capital criminals from committing their crimes than it is to save them from hell. Passing laws that reduce murder, rape, child molestation, homosexuality, adultery and habitual criminals should be a higher priority than converting those criminals to Christianity. Converting criminals should be a priority but it should not be a higher priority than preventing them from destroying a peaceful society. Our first responsibility should be to our families and our law abiding neighbors and society at large. Protect them first. Worry about the souls of those who seek to destroy the innocent later. I am not going to coddle a criminal at the expense of my family.

                              I know of a case of a husband and wife who were American missionaries who preached the gospel overseas. They had a young daughter whom they left back in the states to be raised by a relative. She wasn't as important to them as preaching the gospel. Today, she wants nothing to do with Christianity. Do you think God approves of the way they raised their daughter?
                              Last edited by Jefferson; May 28th, 2010, 08:07 AM.
                              WARNING: Graphic video here.

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